This week, back in the real world, Tebbit summoned up that old rage quite
effortlessly. He was informed that the subject of the Radio 4 programme The
Reunion - in which people affected by a particular historical event are brought
together - would be the IRA bombing of the Grand Hotel in Brighton in 1984,
which left five of his friends dead and his wife paralysed. He was asked if
he would like to take part. The bomber, Patrick Magee, had also been
invited. Tebbit was furious. So much has changed since that terrible night
when he was plucked from the rubble live on TV, but his feelings of impotence
and rage are as vivid now as they were then. "I wrote telling them the only
reunion I'd be happy to attend was the one where Magee was reunited with a
bomb," he says. "People do expect you to mellow, but that is not easy when you
wake every morning to be reminded about the fact that your wife can't get out of
bed," he admits.
I am sure there would be plenty of volunteers to light the fuse.
Damn' straight.
ReplyDeleteI saw the restortative justice thing with Desmond Tutu and the IRA/Unionist boys on television some time ago.
ReplyDeleteWhat struck me is how ALL of the murderers had an excuse and were looking for "understanding" rather than being there to offer an apology and try to make amends. It was a further insult to the people who'd already suffered the worst.
Restoritave justice is good for theft, maybe bullying, perhaps even robbery. But sorry, rape and murder? Don't expect any understanding from me.
His article in the Telegraph on Thursday was strong, and angry:
ReplyDelete"I could perhaps have asked Mr Magee for a goodwill message to my wife, whose life sentence to imprisonment in a wheelchair has not yet been commuted to some lesser inconvenience."
I cut it out, as one does sometimes.
Kris, I think Roy Keane could teach you a little about moving on.
ReplyDeleteSo, Iain, not a wholehearted supporter of peace in Northern Ireland, are we? Your posts next Tuesday will make interesting reading, I'm sure.
Verity, I hope to God you are not living in a US state with lax gun control.
ReplyDeleteHow crass of the BBC to make this type of programme! They just don't get it, do they?
ReplyDeleteHow would the producer of the programme feel if his wife was in a wheelchair for the rest of her life and some media luvvie suggested a public hug-in with her assailant?
Why doesn't the Board of Governors, or whatever it's called now, put a stop to this sort of nonsense?
Anonymous 7:15 - There is no such thing as "lax gun control". Ownership of guns is either legal or, in the controlling, lefty states, illegal.
ReplyDeleteI'm with Norman Tebit and his wife on this. Indeed I haven't even forgiven the Germans for the appalling damage they inflicted on my parents, grandparents, other members of my family and my country during WW2. My father died in his 40s, my grandfather was blinded during a bombing, my mother and grandmother were buried beneath the bombed rubble of their house. I have no intention of forgiving the Germans for this.
ReplyDeleteIn Norman Tebbit and his wife's shoes, I would not forgive the IRA bombers either.
Auntie Flo'
Anonymous at 7.13, I am indeed a suporter of the peace process. There are limits, though, to one's sense of forgiveness. How the BBC could even think of inviting Norman Tebbit to take part in this programme is beyond me.
ReplyDeleteTrumpeter, why aren't you back in the Valley of Death with the other 599?
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteKris, I think Roy Keane could teach you a little about moving on.
And exactly what personal tragedies have you had to move on from, anon?
Auntie Flo'
Iain:
ReplyDelete"How the BBC could even think of inviting Norman Tebbit to take part in this programme is beyond me. "
Easy.
The BBC love the IRA and hate Tebbit.
They probably wanted to piss him off.
In the BBC/New Labour lexicon, people like Addams and Guinness and Magee are not terrorist murderers, they are peace-loving freedom fighters and, in the case of the first two, great statesmen as well. Hasn't the greatest of all world statesmen, Tony Blair, confirmed this personally? Lord Tebbit should feel honoured to be offered the chance to associate himself with such distinguished citizens. And on telly as well - what a bonus!
ReplyDeleteI hate the IRA as much as anyone, and they had no right whatever to claim freedom-fighter status within a democracy. So please do not misunderstand me.
ReplyDeleteThe fact is, though, that if there is to be peace between us (regardless of the rights (ours) and wrongs (theirs))we need as a nation to make a conscious effort to turn our faces away from the atrocities which went before (much as happened in South Africa)and move forward.
We can do this as a society. Norman Tebbit of course cannot, because he and his wife have suffered too much. In their place my attitude would be the same.
The BBC (who should be privatised) are stupid beyond belief - not to broadcast the programme, but to have imagined that Tebbit might be inclined to take part.
Norman Tebbit's position as a hero remains untarnished whatever happens.
An utterly insensitive invitation to Norman Tebbit who has never hidden his views, or the fact that he cannot forgive the person who inflicted that terrible tragedy on his wife and friends.
ReplyDeleteThis to me is an example of the totally twisted morality that exists in Blair's Utopia. Decent people are wrong while the dross of society are lauded as some sort of people's heroes.
ReplyDeleteI will say what Lord tebbit may be too polite to say in public, in todays PC state.
'Even in the spirit of reconcilliation, I hope that the bombers rot in Hell for their crimes'.
As Caesar once said "In this world we only have the law, justice is to be had in the next".
I'd gladly attend. Perhaps I'd have just come from stalking stag and have absent-mindedly left my guns in the car. Them Irish do look awkwardly similar to a stag, even inside of a hote ballroom. Wouldn't be my fault if I thought that the paddy bomber was a stag.
ReplyDeleteAs for the peace process, the only useful peace process is one where everyone who has ever funded or been part of the IRA dances at the end of a rope. This farce is a lesson: never take prisoners. Dead men never walk out of prison. With the IRA being so fond of explosives, a spate of work-accidents would have been a much better approach. Could still be useful, those terrorists are recidivist murderers who hate all protestants and anyone who isn't a revolutionary communist. They're mighty friendly with the jihadis as well.
First The Irish Now The Muslims - "Norman Tebbit's position as a hero remains untarnished whatever happens."
ReplyDeleteQuite.
Regarding the constant urging of Lefties to "Move on" - especially when they are being grilled and investigated, as was Clinton - is another little commie construct of thought control. Blair is another who counsels in his self-appointed role of mahatama to the universe, "It is time to move on".
When I hate someone, I hate them. What is there to "move on" to?
Non-hate? How placid, and how perfect. A nice, placid population that has been indoctrinated to believe that it is wrong to harbour strong feelings of injustice, and revenge even.
Or strong feelings of any kind, except adoration of The Leader. Up yours, Tone!
There is peace, and then there is Victory. Peace without Victory is surrender. The existence of an Irish republic is what enabled the IRA to go on, and another lesson that Surrender is the worst crime. In all conflicts, the only option is Victory, and the best is a Roman, merciless Victory where EVERY opponent, no matter how small, is killed. The infiltration of the Left has brought about this celebration of surrender and at most weak victories. Nazis still walk the earth, known Soviet spies die in their beds, and unrepentant killers are celebrated at 10 Downing Street.
ReplyDeleteIt is far past time to bring back that old spirit that saw all of one's enemies hunted down to the last and properly dealt with. It is the only thing that the communists understood, and even then they didn't really.
I must admit, bearing in mind the large numbers of skilled Army personnel in Northern Ireland during the "troubles", I could never understand why we couldn't simply suss out where the IRA terrorists were meeting and just bomb or blow the lot of them to hell. Would have saved all that "peace process" garbage, and so many innocent people killed and mutilated.
ReplyDeleteMcGuinness is now presiding over the education of children in Northern Ireland. What an utter obscenity.
The BBC is filled with people who are all full of piss and wind..
ReplyDelete...and I should know better than most.
Thanks for the link from John Sandell - Lord Tebbit is the master at plain speaking and incisive reason. My quote from the Telegraph article would be:
ReplyDelete"But I am weary of explaining that forgiveness is not a one-way street. The transgressor cannot be forgiven unless he acknowledges the evil of what he has done, and shows remorse and repentance."
Whilst I would argue that forgiveness, in a Christian context, is a one way street, I think he has a valid point.
Even if Lord Tebbit forgave them - their wrong doing would remain. They will not stand justified before God without admitting and repenting of their evil acts.
The IRA men always seem to fail at admitting to the evil they were a part of, saying it was wrong, and asking for forgiveness.
Its seems we will have to leave judgement up to God - if they haven't openly repented of their crimes then that is what awaits them.
I know how unpopular these views are in modern Britain, but I have faith and it is not based on the momentary culture of Tony Blair's and the BBC so called modern world.
I can't stand Norman Tebbit's politics. But he is, of course, completely correct in his response to the BBC on this. Indeed the fact that he has had to formulate a response to an invitation in the first place should tell us all we require to know about the amorality of the oddballs who are in charge of programming at the BBC. Something, at some point, must be done about the rotting leviathan that consumes our money to (at best) lie to us about the news and (at worst) behave in a manner that would shame anyone with a moral bone left in their body. BBC producers can presumably interpret the words "bone" and "body" only within metaphor; else this disgusting invitation would have led to an internal sacking.
ReplyDeleteanonymous [7.36 PM] I think you mean the other 663; see Adkin, Mark, The Charge, Pimlico Books, 2000, p.217.
ReplyDeleteThanks auntie flo.
ReplyDeletePersonally anon, I think Uncle Roy would kick some ass. And damn right.
I think to anticipate the attitudes and actions of the BBC, one simply has to ask oneself the question, "What would Ken Livingstone's view be? What would he do (given half a chance)? And I think he represents the views of everyone who is not white, middle class and english unless he reads the graudian. In fact the only difference I can think of between them, is that one is interested in observing newts whereas the others much prefer badgers.
ReplyDeleteThe BBC's failure to understand the true nature of the IRA is now largely a matter of history.
ReplyDeleteBut before, during and after the Belfast agreement it undoubtedly influenced events for the worse. The BBC colluded with the government in sidelining moderate opinion and giving a platform to murderous extremists. They did this week in and week out, until everyone was persuaded that the IRA was "the only game in town."
Adams and McGuinness are callous, cold-blooded murderers of women and children. They should never, under any circumstances whatsoever, have been interviewed on radio or television. Margaret Thatcher had the right idea. They should have been denied the oxygen of publicity.
sorry anon
ReplyDeleteKill Bill is on BBC3. Ha, ha, ha!
Trumpeter Lanfried - That they are now embarked on exactly the same course with regard to islam should chill the blood.
ReplyDeleteTotal lack of sensitivity towards the Tebbits by the BBC, and with what aim? This is solely to advance the over inflated careers and salary packages of a few jumped up producers. The BBC owes Norman Tebbit and his wife an apology.
ReplyDeleteAuntie Flo'
I did post a response to Oliver Kamm's article "Why Tebbit is right not to forgive the ex-terrorist". In my view, he is wrong not to forgive.
ReplyDeleteWhen I interviewed Tebbit a while ago and asked him if there was one thing he woudl change in his political career his answer was quite touching.
ReplyDeleteHe would have left Brighton a day earlier as he had originally intended.
http://www.toryradio.com/jcms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=74&Itemid=45
There have already been a series of these things with Magee and they have made compelling radio and TV in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteIain's remark suggesting his readers would be lining up to murder the bomber is a worry.
I am also struck by the continuing blinkers that hide the Loyalist paras murderous regimes and the state's collusion with same and focus only on the IRA. The loyalist paras have been just as criminal and murderous and have kept their military units running until just this week.
As Jailhouse suggests Tebbit is wrong not to forgive if only because he is doing himself and his wife in. Magee regards what he did as military action in a war despite all his regrets over the killings. Tebbit is on the rack not Magee.
Tebbit might be able to swap places, or perhaps not, but he could at least vent and explain how he is feeling.
Did anyone see that Brit General explaining his empathy with occupied and colonised people? Newsnight I think. American military pundit up against him.
General has book out comparing current situations with American war of independence.
I wasn't going to post again
ReplyDeletebut
the BBC
they think that they really have the supreme ability to do all things!
I was in Hungerford visiting family when the massacre took place.
I have friends whose family members were murdered.
I experienced the awful fear and helplessness of not knowing that my family members were safe because I could not reach them
I know what a struggle it has been for many people.
..and yet, the BBC insisted on making yet another film against the wishes of most people (those who thought it a good thing were not living there at the time)
We were asked to write and request the film be shelved.
The DG wrote saying that their film makers (all youngsters) were able to bring 'closure' to the victims -so not only camera men but psychologists as well and all so young!
It didn't bring closure it stirred up memories and some were back on drugs and tranquillizers yet again.
I can quite understand Mr. Tebbit's attitude.
Tebbit's point was that even God only grants forgiveness when the sinner shows genuine repentance and there is no evidence that Magee has ever repented his wickedness. Why would he? His policy of murdering people in their beds paid handsome dividends.
ReplyDeleteFor slow learners: A willingness to go on radio or television and mouth self-justifying platitudes does not count as repentance.
Chris Paul, with gross presumption, writes: "Tebbit is wrong not to forgive if only because he is doing himself and his wife in. Magee regards what he did as military action in a war despite all his regrets over the killings." Are you really so stupid that you believe this Sixth Form sophistry?
ReplyDelete"Tebbit is on the rack not Magee." That is due to the cowardice of two of the great heroes of our age: Bill Clinton and Tony Blair. Two weak attention seekers with egos the size of the Ritz. Magee would have mouldered away in his grave by now had he be dealt justice.
"Tebbit might be able to swap places, or perhaps not, but he could at least vent and explain how he is feeling."
Why certainly, Chris Paul. Maybe he could "vent" then "move on", thanks to the opportunity hospitably provided by the BBC.
Remind me again, Chris Paul, why Lord Tebbit owes you or anyone else in the United Kingdom an explanation of "how he is feeling".
Gandhi said the rule of an eye for an eye leads to a world of the blind. Jesus told us to turn the other cheeck. If Mandela could forgive and fraternise with the sobs who jailed him 27 years and destryed all that he held dear, if Mbeki could attend PW Botha's funeral, a man who presided over a state responsible for killing members of his family, Lord Tebbitt should have been able to make this effort. And I speak as an admirer of the Pole Cat [semi-trained or not].
ReplyDeleteThe night of the Brighton bomb was an evil night, perpetrated by an evil man. The BBC should not be in the business of allowing evil to try and justify itself.
ReplyDeletePatrick Magee is irrelevant. As MiaS intimated, his punishment will be on Judgement Day.
But Tebbit...
Tebbit has become a bogeyman for old Conservatism - the madwoman in the attic - and yet, Old Conservatism stood up to terror and thuggery and oppression. I wonder if he recognises the Tory party of today; this febrile clone of Nu Labour that Cameron is bent on creating. It takes the form of a political party that is utilitarian and pragmatic rather than principled with a moral imperative.
Can it stand up to the challenge of Islamofacism and erosion of individual rights without a moral backbone?
I doubt it.
Where to begin? William Tyndale is sloppy with his references. "Tebbit has become a bogeyman for old Conservatism - the madwoman in the attic -".
ReplyDeleteNo. You see, what you are doing is, you are taking someone's limning of Gordon Brown, who is a grotesque individual who is sequestered in a flat at No 10, despite apparently living at No 11, as Mrs Rochester.
See, already, being unable to name Mrs Rochester with all the background her name entails, you have wrecked your little arguement by suddenly trying to transfer "the mad woman in the attic" (Gordon Brown living in a flat at the top of No 10), with, for absolutely no reason at all, Lord Tebbit.
I am guessing that you failed in English Literature?
OTOH, you are right about Dave. He doesn't have the bottle to join the fight to get rid of the muslim threat to Britain and Western civilisation. For one thing, he is a terribly ignorant man. Just like Tony Blair. Mayflies skimming the surface of our revered, for hundreds of years, British civilisation. He is too busy accommodating himself to London "ethnic minorities" who have absolutely no resonance outside London.
Dave's a patronising public school jerk. Most OEs are a long way away from such a description, but I suspect Dave was never one of the bright boys.
[Iain, please forgive, but the original thread has gone off the page and there is a dynamite story about John Browne - who you deemed 'shamed' - and his poor boyfriend - in The Mail - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=452983&in_page_id=1770&in_a_source= - and my sympathies are with the boyfriend. What a nightmare!]
"I wrote telling them the only
ReplyDeletereunion I'd be happy to attend was the one where Magee was reunited with a
bomb,"
Amen. They're terrorists, no better than Al Qaeda.
Graeme
ReplyDelete"I can't stand Norman Tebbit's politics".
Graeme, Norman's in his mid seventies. He doesn't approve of sodomy and fellatio, but he's not suggesting you should be put in a concentration camp.
Forget about YOU. Think about the sad fact that Norman could have been a contender if it hadn't been for the Brighton bombing.
I want Magee to be dead because he had a go at blowing up my entire government. The government of Britain. He thought he was powerful enough to destroy an entire democracy.
ReplyDeleteDid he take a vote first?
Of course not! It wasn't about democracy! It was about power. They tried to destroy the British government. That is: the elected government of a country with a population of 60m. They tried to destroy the vote of 60m people, current adults and children coming up. They tried to put their will before the will of 60m people.
And they really thought they could prevail. Thank God for Maggie Thatcher.
BTW - let's face it, this detritus of all persuasions isn't about law. It's about proving to their mothers and the neighbours that they've got balls. Angry Young Retards.
verity - You've been reading my mind but you put it so much better. Excellent !
ReplyDeleteThe Brighton bomb changed history - I think Norman Tebbit would have been the natural successor to Mrs Thatcher, until Brighton.
ReplyDeleteHe is a fine man. Upright, colourful, honest and incisive. Nothing like the greyscale who followed Mrs T.
ALan Douglas
hm stanley said "Gandhi said the rule of an eye for an eye leads to a world of the blind. Jesus told us to turn the other cheek."
ReplyDeleteYes, but this refers to physical revenge and most sane people disagree with that except, of course, the IRA and extremist muslims.
What you dreadful lefty liberals don't understand is what goes on quietly in the hearts and minds of people is their own business.
You shouldn't be trying to force people to forgive or bear their hearts in the media if they don't want to. This really is Orwell's 1984, it really is.
They're terrorists, no better than Al Qaeda.....
ReplyDeleteExcept in the eyes of the current government.
Verity: interesting points. Almost up to sixth form sophistry standards if I may be so bold.
ReplyDeleteIf Patrick Magee tried to blow up the entire British Government then will he be as celebrated in 400 years as Guido Fawkes and have an "explosive" blogger named after him?
My point about the loyalist gangsters, criminals and paras being whitewashed out remains completely unanswered and with respect putting Al Quaeda and IRA in the same bag is confused.
That Brit General with the interesting book comparing Iraq with 1775 and all that might put the IRA and the Iraqi insurgents and the French resistance in the same bag as the Revolutionary irregulars post Saratoga who harried the Brits with help from "foreign fighter" helpers from France.
And he might have said on Newsnight that if Iraq (or revolutionary USA) were his country he'd be fighting to the last man to get rid of the invading colonists. Perhaps I got that wrong.
Presumably if the Nazis had invaded UK it is feasible that there would still have been "terrorist" actions against them 10, 20, 30, 50 years after. Perhaps Norman Tebbit and other proud nationalists would be ring leaders? I believe that it is necessary to be able to project and see various points of view before making a credibel analysis.
But anyway the point about the loyalist criminals and the collusion with them; and this General and his theories does rate an answer IMSFSO*.
I think I'm going to have to seek out the General's book. Perhaps Iain could provide a review in the meantime?
* Sixth Form Sophistry (which is better of course than schoolboy errors of the toffs of the Remove)
hris paul [10.34 AM] You say: "Presumably if the Nazis had invaded UK it is feasible that there would still have been "terrorist" actions against them 10, 20, 30, 50 years after. Perhaps Norman Tebbit and other proud nationalists would be ring leaders?"
ReplyDeleteYou still don't get it, do you? The Nazi regime seized and held power by brute force. The British Government, in Northern Ireland, was elected by secret ballot. There is a distinction, you know.
It is unfair to expect Tebbit or indeed anybody else to forgive. It may well have been right to give them an amnesty (I didn't think so at the time but peace has resulted) but asking them to forgive is just letting us off the moral hook of giving amnesty.
ReplyDeletetrumpeter lanfried:
ReplyDeleteSo, Oliver Cromwell was elected by secret ballot was he? That's news to me.
The general sounds like an illiterate twerp with a bee in his bonnet.
ReplyDeleteChris Paul et al,
Lord Tebbit's feelings are his own. They are his private possession. They cannot be confiscated by the BBC or any of the lefties "forgive and forget and let's have a group hug!" commenting here.
Bug out.
Verity: Many fine points made in your postings, all of which I agree with except the comments about David Cameron. I feel he has done great work in revitalising the Conservative Party, admittedly there`s a lot more to be done just look at the local election results!
ReplyDeleteI shouldn`t pay much attention to Master Chris Paul though, this dope supports Hazel Blears and thinks Manchester is one of the greatest Cities in the world! He obviously needs drag himself away from his PC and get out a bit more ! I could name dozens of cities in the UK greater than "Grimchester" including Liverpool, which has the largest amount of listed buildings,(outside of London) in the UK !
Norman Tebbit was a fine honest politician and for the BBC to expect him to forgive Magee for the crippling of his lovely wife is nauseating and typical of the NuLabs warped morality which sets murderers free, imprisons an old lady for not paying her council tax increase and throws an Octogenarian out of it`s conference for daring to exercise his democratic rights to heckle !
I cannot understand why Norman Tebbit is under attack for not wishing to participate in this BBC Radio programme. As usual, the Left have twisted priorities.
ReplyDeleteIt's the BBC who should be attacked for having the Brighton bomber on a programme reminiscing about the carnage he wrought. Why isn't there an outcry about that? If only other people hadn't agreed to participate, the BBC would have had Patrick McGee alone discussing this with Sue MacGregor.
And we are forced to pay a broadcasting tax for this broadcasting atrocity?!