political commentator * author * publisher * bookseller * radio presenter * blogger * Conservative candidate * former lobbyist * Jack Russell owner * West Ham United fanatic * Email iain AT iaindale DOT com
Friday, April 13, 2007
Nadine on Gypsies and Smacks
Two superb blogposts from Nadine HERE on why Gypsies and travellers aren't welcome in her constituency and on smacking children, both laced with some wonderfully amusing anecdotes.
Perhaps she could propose a 'solution' to the Gypsy problem, rather than just having a whinge about them.
'We expect British people to live in houses' while rejoicing at increasing house prices sounds dangerously like Marie Antoinette's 'Let them eat cake'..
But still, it keeps the Guardian's excellent Diary column in anecdotes..
You wouldn't mind if they tidied up and didn't leave a stinking mess wherever they go. They don't pay tax OF ANY KIND and expect the local councils to wipe their arses for them. Whoever made 'Gyppo's' an ethnic group needs a good shoeing. Awful people all of them, 'Roma', 'Irish' or 'Alternative' -take, take take and no give - except grief. All these people crying crocodile tears for them here - see what its like with three or more caravans of them in the field/yard next door, then come and weep for them.
I see the liberal thought police are out in force on this thread. I have just re-read Nadine's story in case I had missed something the first time round. I hadn't. Nothing racist AT ALL. Those of us who have lived in rural areas and experienced these people first hand will have many similar tales to tell. I;d bet that those who are muttering about racism here are all town dwellers. Well open your eyes. All she is saying that everyone should be treated in the same way. What is racist about that?
Iain, I, for one, live in the very rural Ribble Valley. I sympathise with a lot of what Dorries says, but to state simply that gypsies aren't welcome is pretty abhorrant.
And she doesn't address the idea of what to do with gypsies. Well, she does, she says send them to the towns, presumably well out of her way.
Great post from Nadine. If anyone thinks there is anything romantic about "travellers" they obviously haven't experienced their selfish and often criminal behaviour. The apologists on this thread should volunteer to clear up camping sites when, thank God, they move on.
While not necessarily racist, I think Nadine's writing over the last few days shows the illiberal thinking that infests the modern political class.
Yes, travellers should have to pay council tax and abide by the law. But you can't and shouldn't force anyone to live in a fixed abode.
Yes, the correct thing to do with a toddler tantrum is to ignore it and ride it out. But not if you're in a public place where everyone else has to hear it.
...long rant about paedophile hysteria self-edited...
I'll tell you what is racist about it. The characterisation of all travelling people as having criminal intent.
If certain individuals or groups of individuals break the law, then prosecute them.
But don't say that all 'gypsies' are the same, and that they have racially defined characteristics that involve dirt, poor dental hygiene, and a tendency to criminality.
I can recall two occasions when travellers parked themselves in my area. On one occasion they put a brick through someone's car window, on the other they left a burnt out car in the field.
But of course the Left blind themselves to this sort of behaviour and shout "bigot" at those who resent having their neighbourhood ruined.
"I can't believe you posted this Iain. What if "Gypsies" was substituted for "black" or "muslims"?"
The very fact that Iain feels he can use this word should itself explain that there is an obvious difference. "Gypsies" aren't a race, it's a catch-all term used to describe the "travelling community" (many of whom are Irish but not exclusively so). Furthermore, blacks and Muslims don't gatecrash private property and cause misery for the neighbours. Yes, there is an issue with black crime and Muslim fundamentalism but this involves a minority of such those minorities and most people realise that.
"Roma" are indeed a race, they are asians, however, most "travellers" are Irish outlaw clans. That's not to say that I like Roma, they are just as bad. rubbish like this understand one thing....FORCE! If they are indeed "travellers" why do they build permanent "camps"?
Mike, so you want to restrict what I say on my own blog, do you? Jesus. I read her blogs and found them entertaining. I thought I'd share them with my readers. If you've got a problem with that then I despair. We do not live in a one party state quite yet, where everyone is forced to think the same way.
She is totally wrong historically about the British way being to live in houses - if she bothered to do a bit of research (e.g a single Google search) she would have found this: http://www.bedfordshire.gov.uk/Resources/PDF/E/Ethnic%20Sources.pdf
which shows gypsies being buried in Flitton in 1682 and 1724. Is she even aware of John Clare's (another near local)poems about gypsies.
I daresay that she is against "multi-culturalism" but perhaps before she starts advising on the British way of doing things she needs a better understanding of what it is?
Other parts of British "culture" which this so called parlimentary representative might want to acquaint herself with are fair play and representing all her constituents however they voted - perhaps she could at least go and speak to the travellers concerned to understand their views before spouting off - or perhaps she felt well enough informed by her childhood prejudices.
And where exactly does she propose that the travellers go and live - buying a house might not be a possibility. Of course she might want to look to historical (or not so historical in the case of the Slovak govt) precedents in this regard.
Clearly - the new Conservatives are only caring on the surface - you don't need to dig very far to find the old nasty party.
Iain, I support Nadine wholeheartedly as someone who faced the same problems 25 years ago in rural Cheshire. At that time the district council were tasked with placing a permanent gypsy campsite within the borough and as an independent councilor was courted by the main stream parties to support them in the placing of the camp. The Liberals sought my support in exchange for a vote for one of their obscure policies - I refused, only to discover later that they had already decided to place the camp in my town. We fought tooth and nail to stop this and eventually won. Let me enlighten those who have commented about racialism in this thread. This is nothing about racialism, but of facts and hard evidence. After touring the UK at my own expense and visiting local authorities who had succumbed to government threats, I discovered that not one local authority was happy with the results of forced encampment. In almost every case the washroom/toilet/bathroom facilities were reduced to wreckage within a month of opening. The copper pipes had been ripped out and sold for scrap and the other fittings removed, or smashed. The travelers didn't send their kids to school and refused to pay any rates or taxes. This is not racial, it's criminal!
If travellers wish to live in a nomadic way then they should be allowed to. What they should not be allowed to do is take over private property or have council property given to them for free.
If they are so popular, why don't everybody want one. Why is being a racist far worse than being a pedo or rapist. Soon the buggers will make it compulsory to be Nice to politicians,Parking attendants, refuse operatives and the bloody migratory welsh.
I thought it was great. I have just read two months worth of her entries. You don't expect an MP to write like a human being do you? I think your blog is well read by the left Iain.
I'm not much bothered whether travellers pay council tax or otherwise... I am, however, much worried by the way that the ones who sporadically infest my local semi-rural area act in a very similar way to a plague of locusts...
My only criticism of Dorries' post is that she implies that there is one way of life in Britain. The great thing about this country is that most people are left alone to live as they please not as their MP would wish them too.
There is clearly a problem with lawlessness but this has to be separated from the accomodation issue.
"perhaps she could at least go and speak to the travellers concerned to understand their views before spouting off - or perhaps she felt well enough informed by her childhood prejudices."
Sorry to dissapoint you but a lot of anti-gypsy feeling is based on cold hard facts and experience. Ironically my parents remember them from their childhood and recall that they were much more civilised.
"And where exactly does she propose that the travellers go and live - buying a house might not be a possibility."
So local councils should therefore be required to provide them with taxpayer funded facilities against the wishes of the local community? If you wish to live a nomadic life then you have to accept that you don't have a God-given right to park on private property or be given land for free by the state.
For those who are reading the comments of the poster known as "no longer anonymous" the following is a request made by a pensioner on Guidos' blog for a reduction in the use of expletives being posted and the reply by the fair minded "no longer anonymous" is also noted.
The pensioners posting.. "They are therefore not delusional unlike the folk who post on this blog,just seen a comment on another thread where a posting by a "true tory" noted that over on Iain Dale's blog the likes of shotgun and his supporters with their obscene postings are banned,just a brusque exchange of views is allowed, it would be I feel beneficial if this blog had similar high principles to those of Iain and his supporters."
The posting by "no longer anonymous" was brief... I hope someone rips your fingernails out.
Problems with so-called gypsies are not restricted to rural sites. Our London suburban area used to get regular 'visits' from these groups (who are no more genuine gypsies than I'm Queen of Rumania) - petty burglaries rose sharply, green spaces were vandalised, front gardens were used as lavatories, etc, etc. The Council got tough and physical barriers were put up to stop the caravans, and it worked.
There has been a permanent encampment at an East London site at the junction of several main roads for years. Like all the other similar sites, it is a rubbish tip.
Should we be surprised? After all, the Conservatives are the sister party of the ODS, and it was the ODS Mayor of Usti nad Labem in the Czech Republic, Ladislav Hruška, who (amongst other things) proposed building a wall around the gypsy community in his town in 1999.
Perhaps Nadine should invite him over for some tips and to discuss some of his other ideas?
Perhaps Nadine should set up a twinning between Flitton and Usti nad Labem?
Or perhaps she should read up on the porajmos and ponder why it is that the Gypsies are the only group who suffered genocide during the holocaust (proportionally more Roma were murdered than Jews) and towards whom it's OK to be racially prejudiced in today's caring, sharing Conservative party?
Nothing racist AT ALL? You're having a laugh ain't ya, well ain't ya?
The only thing that might make it less than full on racist is the clever way the mid-Bedfordshire bigot has conflated Irish travellers, Gypsies (er, Tramps and Thieves too, lest we forget), and anyone who travels into some poorly remembered (but actually genial and loveable) caravaners.
Is this a side swipe at Margaret Beckett? or do you really believe that taking responsibility away from local authorities was a progressive and justifiable thing to do? Would Dave/id Cameroonie the nu-age cuddly Tory gentleman take the responsibility back off them?
Goodness knows travellers of all stripes can be one side of some friction when they pitch up at non-sites with no waste disposal, plumbing or access. But that's the point. Sites with waste handling, plumbing and power and proper access make sense and Nadine is a gibbering bigot.
Travellers cannot even buy land and create their own properly managed static sites because of NIMBYISM. I covered some of this as a cub-reporter circa 1985 and in that case the "problem" was Showmen who travel with Fairs for six month of the year - enterprising, mobile, flexible, licensed and respectable businesses - and need a site for the other six months.
The objectors - including stalwart socialists and Labourists I'll have you know - wished the site to be transferred from some very suitable land in Collyhurst to some very unsuitable land in Rusholme (now regenerated as the heart of the curry mile). Why? Because the Cllr responsible - one Arnold Spencer - lived there.
Pathetic. It's difficult. But sorry Iain Nadine is ga-ga. And you are showing some signs of this by linking to her excreable views.
Makes me spit.
Whatever next? The way we do things in England does not include the smell of curry cooking, the extravaganza of carnival, the mounting of chavi satellite dishes, or alas the frummy curls (and hot girls allegedly at this link) of those orthodox jews over there?
The Campaign for Racial Equality has a good page on gypsies and travellers.
http://www.cre.gov.uk/gdpract/g_and_t_facts.html
The irony is it's supposed to be defending them, but reading between the lines it rather proves the detractors' points.
"There are not enough authorised sites for Gypsies and Irish Travellers Local authorities used to have a legal duty to provide sites for Gypsies and Irish Travellers. There are now too few sites to accommodate all Gypsies and Irish Travellers. The lack of permanent and transit sites throughout the country has forced Travellers to camp wherever they can. "
Er no, they can just buy some land like anybody else.
"The latest figures from the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (ODPM) show that 28% or 4,232 are on unauthorised developments or encampments "
Wow, 28% of all developments illegal. Imagine if 28% of all houses were illegal - the country would be screwed.
"Less than a quarter of local authorities always, or often, give advice on where to buy land for Gypsy sites, and although over two-thirds give advice at the later stage on preparing planning applications, this is often not publicised (2)."
If you want planning permission, you ask the council, not the other way round.
"Some Gypsies and Irish Travellers feel that the planning system is so weighted against them that they would stand a better chance of getting permission if they were already established on a site when their application was assessed. "
In other words, many gypsies ignore the law.
"Gypsies and Irish Travellers do pay taxes
Those living on unauthorised encampments do not pay rates, but they also dont receive services. All are charged VAT on everything they buy."
Er, that doesn't sound like a very good justification. They obviously do get services, paved roads, hospitals, etc.
Perhaps we could all opt not to pay income taxe and council tax and then say "not getting any services, we're not going to pay".
"Although the majority of Gypsies and Irish Travellers remove their rubbish before they move on, it has been found that where there has been a Traveller encampment there has, on occasion, been refuse and discarded household items left. "
Surely not.
"Many councils have found that it is cost effective to provide skips and portable toilets."
Er, I thought they weren't getting any services. Reading between the lines is not pretty.
"There is no evidence to suggest that incidence of crime is far higher amongst Gypsies and Irish Travellers"
*Far higher*? So they're saying it is higher, just not *far* higher. Hmm, that ain't good.
"Criminal justice agencies do not ethnically monitor Gypsies and Irish Travellers, so accurate statistics are not available."
So they aren't saying that it ISN'T far higher, there's just no statisitics.
"Gypsy and Irish Traveller pupils in England are the group most at risk of failure in the education system"
Eh? "At risk of failure" implies that the fault is with anyone other than the gypsies themselves for not working hard in school. Since when did "at risk of failure" become a lefty synonym for "somebody else should take the blame for your own failings".
"In 2003, 23% of Roma Gypsy pupils and 42% of Irish Traveller pupils in England obtained five or more A*-C GCSEs, compared with an overall average of 51%. 22% of Roma Gypsy pupils and 17% of Irish Traveller pupils obtained no passes, compared with 6% on average. Gypsy and Irish Traveller children, particularly those of secondary age, have much lower levels of school attendance than pupils from other groups. By Key Stage 3, it is estimated that only 15-20% of Traveller pupils are registered or regularly attend school. "
Hmm yes, that's true, but aren't the CRE supposed to be defending gypsies not slagging them off? If this is the pro-gypsy page, I'd hate to see the non-pro one.
I actually feel sorry for the hand-wringers on here who see the travellers are a persecuted minority and rush to their defence.
I suggest you contact the Evening Echo in Essex about their investigations into travelling families and the criminal and corrupt practices they have been using to buy land to develop for other "travellers".
We are talking about millions of pounds passing between the families, threats, intimidation and completely hostile behaviour to local residents.
Lenin had a phrase for these hand-wringers I think he called them "useful fools". Believe me that's exactly how travellers regard them.
Rather sadly, this very serious debate is being led down entirely the wrong path by the half-witted Dorries woman. If you give the 'useful fools' the slightest whiff of racism you end up having the cretinous arguments listed above.
This isn't a racist issue.
This is an issue about a group of people who choose to live outside the law - race doesn't enter into it.
For those of us living in the country whose property is stolen and vandalised with increasing regularity by these people and who receive no protection whatever from a Police 'service' cowed into inactivity by the PC brigade, this is a very serious issue. It certainly deserves a more intelligent debate than Nadine Dorries is capable of leading.
A lot of people sending comments assume that there is a solution to this problem if only we looked hard enough. Sometimes there is no solution; it is the conflicting interests of fox and chickens. Farmer Giles, you speak from experience and are dead right.
I told you so Iain, this is the kind of topic which brings out the dark side of normally decent folk.I said earlier I think you made a mistake in starting this Thread and having read the comments still think I was right.Saw you on Sky last night very impressive,has Guido asked for your help when he next wonders out of the shadows ?
The council run travellers site in Cleeve Prior in Evesham has just been raided by the police. Almost everything that had been reported stolen via burgalries in Evesham over the last six months was recovered, and a lot more besides!
Mike, I understand your point, but the logical conclusion is that I would steer clear of any sibject which might be controversial and attract posts which I might not agree with. Sometimes you can't win.
I enjoyed the Sky News appearance. I'm now going to be doing it on the first Friday of every month.
There's no 'dark side' being displayed when people vent their anger at the behaviour of 'gypsies' and their apologists. No one would mind at all at people making a choice to live as a settled person i.e. in a fixed and static abode or as a traveller, living in a caravan, tee-pee, tent or winnebago. What 'we' (on the Dark side) do mind is the fact that 'we' pay for everything from Council Tax. Income Tax, VAT, Road Tax, etc etc. If we don't, we are easily traced and made to pay either via the police and other [law]enforcement agencies or with the threat to our status [credit ratings] via the civil courts. The vast majority of gypsies/travellers don't pay such taxes, nor do they offer to, and the fatuous statement that they pay VAT etc makes the dark side very angry. They fail to clear up, soemtimes leaving local authorites, private individuals and other bodies with quite enormous sums to find to clear up their stinking awful mess - a few years ago it cost the Thames Barrier nearly £15K to clear up after an incursion by them, and their costs continued with the hiring of extra security guards and other means to ensure this didn't happen again. There's no visitors car park there anymore - all barriered off, which is a reseource no longer availble to visitors, walkers and cyclist aho used to use it o explore this part of the Thames. All of the traveller families concerned drove top of the range BMW or mercedes saloons + the usual monster 4X4 vehicles which they use to go out and defraud pensioners charging stupid prices for alleged work. It is disgraceful. the other reasons for anger have been mentioned before by others, but clearly what applies to us law abiding 'settled' people doesn't to travellers, especially with regard to unlawful sites &developments. Private individuals have to pay for legal action which is defended by the travellers often with 'legal aid' being given.
farmer giles said...Poor old Mike! You did make me chuckle - what a feisty old bigger eh?
The fact that you did not take the bait and insult me a poor pensioner shows you to be not such a nasty fellow after all.Perhaps just a little misunderstood.
"The posting by "no longer anonymous" was brief... I hope someone rips your fingernails out."
Oh you're not still going on about that are you? It was supposed to be a deliberately dark and warped comment. I'm actually quite friendly in real life and believe it or not I'm not that keen on bad language either. But nor can I stand excessive sanctimony.
Nadine writes: I sang the well know song by Cher all the way home from a meeting tonight. I know all the words, I bet you do too.
"I spent the night in Flitton Village Hall in the company of over 500 residents." Gosh, I've never heard this song by Cher. Maybe it was after she and Sonny split up and she felt she needed to hone in a bit.
Nadine's post was very strong (and entertaining) and perhaps signals the beginning of a turnaround. I hope I'm not militating against anything she wrote in her post, when I point out - as a reader of Lavengro - that "travellers" aren't Gypsies. "Travellers" are hippies operating in the Seventies of "ya gotta fight the system, man! The system's screwed, man!" They are not ethnic Romanies.
So it's two problems. I think the Romanies will be easier to deal with. It's the "travellers "We're brave social outcasts but we have our rights to other people's money because it's the system, man! Also, so we need Pampers, man!"
I don't romanticise the Romanies, as George Borrow did (I think; some may argue), but they had a culture, as primitive as it was, and were a cohesive ethnic group. They were a race, and probably still are. British "travellers" had a 2000-year culture of being British and abandoned it for self-indulgence and dependency.
Ezra - And?
Anonymous 5:01. Marie-Antoinette did not say, "Let them eat cake!" She said "Let them eat brioches!" meaning rolls.
bj - "Plain racism". Since when were "travellers" a race? You mean, when I "travel" on a plane, I am melded into a race with all my fellow passengers? That is so scarey! Many are fat!
Ezra says of Nadine, "And she doesn't address the idea of what to do with gypsies."
Why do anything with them? They're free people. But they can't trespass, as none of us is allowed to do. If trespassing, they should be arrested and, if found guilty in a magistrates' court, fined. Or imprisoned. Life is like that, and has been so for around 10,000 years. Contribute or sod off.Do they give birth au naturel? If not, having not contributed, they should. But you don't have to "do something" with them.
Doing nothing is the best option.
Alex: A tiny reality check for you. You say: "But don't say that all 'gypsies' are the same, and that they have racially defined characteristics that involve dirt, poor dental hygiene, and a tendency to criminality." The only thing is, well, yes.
The notional "travellers" are volunteers in the hippies manqué format of 40 years ago.
They have no entitlements to anything. Would I let them starve?
Farmer Giles - who cares? You're a weaselly little person. Why not take control of your MP and your local council? You're the vote-holder. This makes you the boss of the elected representatives. Explain the facts of life to them.
Why can't you understand, as American voters do, that you are the boss and your representative is there to serve you?
Or else?
Why do you tolerate the brain dead regulating your lives? This is why Britain is in the state it's in. Abdication of responsibility because other people - the Trots like the dead-eyed Margaret Beckett and her old husband of 82 who dodders along on the payroll of the British taxpayer as her "personal assistant"? You deserve everything you get.
You never took control. Look at the number of outraged people on this thread.
And guess what! Sometimes, 'racist' tells you everything you need to know.
For example, you are in a trouble spot in the world and you would do anything to get out, the best words you could hear are "It's OK, the Americans have helicopters and medical staff on the way and you're going to be picked up within five minutes!"
THANK YOU, GOD!
How about, "Aussie helicopters are on their way!" Would you feel heartened? I certainly would.
The British Navy's on its way ... Oh, God, please, no!
Is this 'racist'? Or reality?
You people need to sit down and take a deep breath, preferably upwind of a "traveller" site where they are smoking their God-given skunk. Paid for by people who are awoken by the alarm at 6:30 and jump up, get breakfast for their children, get their children dressed and driven to school, and then drive to the station, pay an obscene amount of money to park their car, if they can find a spot, and get on a train to a big city so they can be at work by 9 a.m.
You people who call people who object to the destruction of civilised standards as "racist" make me sick. Next time you get trapped in the London Underground and fear an attack by mad Islamicists, call your local Traveller Swat Team for assistance.
Do you wonder that almost 4m indigenous Britons have left Britain since the Trots got in?
Well, Well, coincidences do happen! I've just returned from a walk to our local bakery shop. On the way I noticed that the twice yearly invasion of French travelers has began on a local farmers field. The gate and fence have been torn down and a collection of new Mercedes, BMW offroaders and caravans are parked there. The refuse is starting to pile up already and I've just taken a deviation to avoid human excreta and toilet paper strewn across the footpath. At the bakery a new mercedes 'S' class is parked at an angle blocking the way for any other cars to park. The driver is in the shop with his kids who are storming around the shop helping themselves while the frustrated manageress is trying to control the thievery. An angry guy storms into the shop and enquires which idiot has parked so badly and guess what our friendly traveler says? "I will report you for discriminating against me". Rather bemused by this episode which was changing by the minute, two of our polizei arrived. Now, out here the PC crowd haven't quite got it together yet and our boys in blue are not too friendly. Minutes later outside the shop three kids are standing in a sea of pastries and one cop is snarling into the face of their father. On the way home I see more police arriving at the site and make good my escape. Listening to the radio news just now, two garages and a pub were robbed last evening and the security cameras clocked a French number plate which has been traced to the site. Of course the other travelers don't know who it belongs to!
a friend said... verity said... April 15, 2007 2:47 AM
Farmer Giles - who cares?
Well are you a mouse or a man Farmer Giles ? reply robustly silly fellow don't let her talk to you like that. --------------------------------
Well friend, I really don't know what 'Verity' is on about there, I think she agrees with me, but had a go becasue I haven't got any control over my MP. I don't know anyone who has, do you? My sitting MP retires at the next general election and I know we certainly won't be getting a 'Nadine' in their place. How do you control them, once they're in that's it for a while, and if you don't vote for them you might let a nasty little trot in for a while, or a nasty little Nazi, or a silly little 'green' type person. Still I think she apologized to everyone a little later on, and I generally do enjoy the rantings of 'Verity' and whoever she is (I take it it is a 'she') she gets plenty of flak off everyone else. I enjoyed vienna woods posting as it is getting to that time of year and it will be a fairly common occurrence all over the countryside. I know our post office will get busy in the coming months, and the horse and carts come out. England in the 21st Century - bliss!
You British have been completely cowed by the Socialist Fascist Party. Why shouldn't Little Black Sambo post under any name he chooses? If you don't like it, don't read his posts?
Britain has gone from being the home of robust freedom of speech and thought to cowed obedience in 10 years, and not just because of the the power-mad great dictator in No 10. He couldn't have gained control over British people's consciousness in 10 short years had he not had an eager army of helpers, collaborators, informers and keen thought lieutenants. People are now so cowed they are not only self-policing, but police each other with vicious pleasure.
BTW, the two previous posts above from "me" are not. They are from an imposter who can't even get my patterns of speech right. So, a tin-eared imposter. At the times he posted, it wasn't even time to get up in my part of the world.
BTW, Iain, the same person seems to be impersonating Vienna Woods, also. Vienna Woods does not post in that tone of voice.
verity said...BTW, the two previous posts above from "me" are not.
How can you call someone posting in the name of Verity an imposter or "me",you do not have the sole rights to use that name you sanctimonious plonker.
Iain Dale said... I have deleted the Verity imposter posts.
Iain why did you remove the other posts under the name of Verity ? Don't please give me the "well it's my blog and I will only allow a blog name I approve of" rebuke.I think the decent thing would be to delete all posts by anyone calling themselves Verity or Vienna Woods now or in the future as that woman and her meandering drivel is doin' me head in.
Mike, "as that woman and her meandering drivel is doin' me head in." Why do you get so emotional and try to personalise everything, Mike?
Farmer Giles - Forgive me if I snapped, but the cowed attitude the English have to their elected representatives offends me. You, the electorate, are the master. They have been put in office to serve YOU, their paymaster. If they don't please you, you won't vote for them again, and may work actively against them.
Most of them (not all; there are honourable exceptions, as we all know; Mr Patrick Mercer comes to mind) are cowards. And they're greedy. They want to keep their jobs. That means pleasing not just one boss, but thousands.
Legislators in the US really do need their large staffs because the voters are very interactive. They don't complain. They take action. Boom! A phone call! Boom! A follow-up email! Boom! A new message; "I didn't like your explanation."
I've gone into all this before and won't do so again, but let me just point to one thing that illustrates the entire relationship in the US between the voter and the elected representative: Every elected official in the US, from the dog catcher to the President of the United States, addresses the voter as "Sir" or "Ma'am". Not Mr Jones. Not Carol. But "Sir" or "Ma'am". And this describes the whole relationship. The President acknowledges that it is a compact between the elector and the elected and that he is working for you and you are the boss. The most powerful man in the world calls them "sir". I find it immensely touching.
I'd be interested to hear what Iain, who is just back from DC, has to say on this chasm between attitudes in our two countries.
I do think British voters need to become much more demanding. That Tony Blair has succeeded in destroying a cohesive, rich, well-run country with an enviable civil society in just 10 years tells me everything I need to know about the British voter. They let it happen.
verity said... Mike, "as that woman and her meandering drivel is doin' me head in." Why do you get so emotional and try to personalise everything, Mike?
You preach Verity and that I find annoying,you talk about me personalising everything,on this thread alone you have.......
verity said...Why shouldn't Little Black Sambo post under any name he chooses? April 15, 2007 2:57 PM
Because it is racist you bigot that's why for Gods sake !
verity said... Yeah, but they're not, you self-righteous prat. April 15, 2007 2:47 AM
What do you call that remark if not personal you objectionable person.
verity said...
Farmer Giles - who cares? You're a weaselly little person. April 15, 2007 2:45 AM
That is a nasty,nasty thing to post.
verity said... I do think British voters need to become much more demanding. That Tony Blair has succeeded in destroying a cohesive, rich, well-run country with an enviable civil society in just 10 years tells me everything I need to know about the British voter. They let it happen. April 15, 2007 5:51 PM
You've got a bloody nerve telling the British voter what to do when you live in Mexico.
You really are a most dislikable person who thinks too much of herself,as long as you post in this vein I will be here to respond,unless Iain deletes my posts again !
"Mike", I suggest you cool it with the personal abuse.
What about your personal abuse as noted in my previous posting ? How about an apology to the posters you insulted ? Little Black Sambo is utilising his freedom speech,that is not freedom of speech it is called being racist,if you don't understand the difference then that would account for some of your postings. And don't presume to instruct me on what is acceptable or not Verity.
I have now deleted the three vienna woods posted by someone else. I will close this thread if people don't grow up. EIther dicuss the subject of the thread or move on.
"The council run travellers site in Cleeve Prior in Evesham has just been raided by the police. Almost everything that had been reported stolen via burgalries in Evesham over the last six months was recovered, and a lot more besides"
So not only are they thieves they also sound like spectacularly bad thieves as they hadn't managed to get rid of anything they'd nicked for 6 months. That - and my struggle to find any mention of this story on the web causes me some doubts....
If by superb you mean neo-fascist, then you are right, they are.
ReplyDelete"...why Gypsies and travellers aren't welcome in her constituency".
ReplyDeleteI can't believe you posted this Iain. What if "Gypsies" was substituted for "black" or "muslims"?
How long before Mr potato head castigates her for "unacceptable" thoughts?
ReplyDeleteIs there room for a caravan on camerons drive?
Hmmm..more tosh from Dorries.
ReplyDeletePerhaps she could propose a 'solution' to the Gypsy problem, rather than just having a whinge about them.
'We expect British people to live in houses' while rejoicing at increasing house prices sounds dangerously like Marie Antoinette's 'Let them eat cake'..
But still, it keeps the Guardian's excellent Diary column in anecdotes..
Yes, of course, it cannot be feasible for any other race other than the Roma to have feral and badly behaved kids...
ReplyDeleteWhere does this bl**dy woman come from ? It ain't Planet Reality, that's for sure..
If Gypsies & travellers & ethnics are so popular and to be pitied why are they not welcome wherever they go?
ReplyDeleteYou wouldn't mind if they tidied up and didn't leave a stinking mess wherever they go. They don't pay tax OF ANY KIND and expect the local councils to wipe their arses for them. Whoever made 'Gyppo's' an ethnic group needs a good shoeing. Awful people all of them, 'Roma', 'Irish' or 'Alternative' -take, take take and no give - except grief.
ReplyDeleteAll these people crying crocodile tears for them here - see what its like with three or more caravans of them in the field/yard next door, then come and weep for them.
TGB's the lot of them.
Anonymous 5:01,
ReplyDeleteJudging by the tone of Nadine's post, I think her 'solution' to the 'gypsy problem' would be a 'final solution', if you get my drift.
I see the liberal thought police are out in force on this thread. I have just re-read Nadine's story in case I had missed something the first time round. I hadn't. Nothing racist AT ALL. Those of us who have lived in rural areas and experienced these people first hand will have many similar tales to tell. I;d bet that those who are muttering about racism here are all town dwellers. Well open your eyes. All she is saying that everyone should be treated in the same way. What is racist about that?
ReplyDeleteIain, I, for one, live in the very rural Ribble Valley. I sympathise with a lot of what Dorries says, but to state simply that gypsies aren't welcome is pretty abhorrant.
ReplyDeleteAnd she doesn't address the idea of what to do with gypsies. Well, she does, she says send them to the towns, presumably well out of her way.
Great post from Nadine. If anyone thinks there is anything romantic about "travellers" they obviously haven't experienced their selfish and often criminal behaviour.
ReplyDeleteThe apologists on this thread should volunteer to clear up camping sites when, thank God, they move on.
While not necessarily racist, I think Nadine's writing over the last few days shows the illiberal thinking that infests the modern political class.
ReplyDeleteYes, travellers should have to pay council tax and abide by the law. But you can't and shouldn't force anyone to live in a fixed abode.
Yes, the correct thing to do with a toddler tantrum is to ignore it and ride it out. But not if you're in a public place where everyone else has to hear it.
...long rant about paedophile hysteria self-edited...
Nice touch Iain, calling them 'these people'.
ReplyDeleteI'll tell you what is racist about it. The characterisation of all travelling people as having criminal intent.
If certain individuals or groups of individuals break the law, then prosecute them.
But don't say that all 'gypsies' are the same, and that they have racially defined characteristics that involve dirt, poor dental hygiene, and a tendency to criminality.
alex - exactly what I was getting at..
ReplyDeleteWell, don't worry - If Dave boots her out as he did with that front-bench soldier chappy, I am sure the BNP would be happy to offer her a job..
ReplyDeleteAnon 5:01, you're too subtle for me.
ReplyDeletesorry for s p e l l i n g it out.
I can recall two occasions when travellers parked themselves in my area. On one occasion they put a brick through someone's car window, on the other they left a burnt out car in the field.
ReplyDeleteBut of course the Left blind themselves to this sort of behaviour and shout "bigot" at those who resent having their neighbourhood ruined.
"I can't believe you posted this Iain. What if "Gypsies" was substituted for "black" or "muslims"?"
ReplyDeleteThe very fact that Iain feels he can use this word should itself explain that there is an obvious difference. "Gypsies" aren't a race, it's a catch-all term used to describe the "travelling community" (many of whom are Irish but not exclusively so). Furthermore, blacks and Muslims don't gatecrash private property and cause misery for the neighbours. Yes, there is an issue with black crime and Muslim fundamentalism but this involves a minority of such those minorities and most people realise that.
Playing devil's advocate as Iain feels he is better qualified to comment on rural issues than town dwellers, I wonder if he feels the reverse applies.
ReplyDelete"Roma" are indeed a race, they are asians, however, most "travellers" are Irish outlaw clans.
ReplyDeleteThat's not to say that I like Roma, they are just as bad.
rubbish like this understand one thing....FORCE!
If they are indeed "travellers" why do they build permanent "camps"?
The problem with this Thread is not the comments being made, but the fact that you thought it was a good idea to start it in the first place Iain.
ReplyDeleteMike, so you want to restrict what I say on my own blog, do you? Jesus. I read her blogs and found them entertaining. I thought I'd share them with my readers. If you've got a problem with that then I despair. We do not live in a one party state quite yet, where everyone is forced to think the same way.
ReplyDeleteShe is totally wrong historically about the British way being to live in houses - if she bothered to do a bit of research (e.g a single Google search) she would have found this:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.bedfordshire.gov.uk/Resources/PDF/E/Ethnic%20Sources.pdf
which shows gypsies being buried in Flitton in 1682 and 1724. Is she even aware of John Clare's (another near local)poems about gypsies.
I daresay that she is against "multi-culturalism" but perhaps before she starts advising on the British way of doing things she needs a better understanding of what it is?
Other parts of British "culture" which this so called parlimentary representative might want to acquaint herself with are fair play and representing all her constituents however they voted - perhaps she could at least go and speak to the travellers concerned to understand their views before spouting off - or perhaps she felt well enough informed by her childhood prejudices.
And where exactly does she propose that the travellers go and live - buying a house might not be a possibility. Of course she might want to look to historical (or not so historical in the case of the Slovak govt) precedents in this regard.
Clearly - the new Conservatives are only caring on the surface - you don't need to dig very far to find the old nasty party.
Iain Dale said...
ReplyDeleteMike, so you want to restrict what I say on my own blog, do you?
That is not what I said and I am surprised by your response.
Iain, I support Nadine wholeheartedly as someone who faced the same problems 25 years ago in rural Cheshire. At that time the district council were tasked with placing a permanent gypsy campsite within the borough and as an independent councilor was courted by the main stream parties to support them in the placing of the camp. The Liberals sought my support in exchange for a vote for one of their obscure policies - I refused, only to discover later that they had already decided to place the camp in my town. We fought tooth and nail to stop this and eventually won. Let me enlighten those who have commented about racialism in this thread. This is nothing about racialism, but of facts and hard evidence. After touring the UK at my own expense and visiting local authorities who had succumbed to government threats, I discovered that not one local authority was happy with the results of forced encampment. In almost every case the washroom/toilet/bathroom facilities were reduced to wreckage within a month of opening. The copper pipes had been ripped out and sold for scrap and the other fittings removed, or smashed. The travelers didn't send their kids to school and refused to pay any rates or taxes. This is not racial, it's criminal!
ReplyDeleteIf travellers wish to live in a nomadic way then they should be allowed to. What they should not be allowed to do is take over private property or have council property given to them for free.
ReplyDeleteIf they are so popular, why don't everybody want one. Why is being a racist far worse than being a pedo or rapist. Soon the buggers will make it compulsory to be Nice to politicians,Parking attendants, refuse operatives and the bloody migratory welsh.
ReplyDelete"One brave day when Aunty Bridget was feeding the baby, I served the tinkers, and lived to tell the tale."
ReplyDeleteWhat about these quotes Iain - if not racist (we could have the debate about "tinkers" being a race) then pretty prejudicial.
"The fear was that because I had Blonde hair, a rare thing in Eire, the tinkers might steal me."
"I served the tinkers, and lived to tell the tale."
"[Tinker woman's] hair was long, wild and wind blown and had obviously never seen a comb or been washed in weeks."
Campaigning in Somerset in the mid 90s the Tories were dead set against any gypsy/traveller sites.
"If they want sites why don't they buy there own land and make their own" they used to say. What happened to that policy?
I thought it was great. I have just read two months worth of her entries. You don't expect an MP to write like a human being do you?
ReplyDeleteI think your blog is well read by the left Iain.
I'm not much bothered whether travellers pay council tax or otherwise... I am, however, much worried by the way that the ones who sporadically infest my local semi-rural area act in a very similar way to a plague of locusts...
ReplyDeleteMy only criticism of Dorries' post is that she implies that there is one way of life in Britain. The great thing about this country is that most people are left alone to live as they please not as their MP would wish them too.
ReplyDeleteThere is clearly a problem with lawlessness but this has to be separated from the accomodation issue.
"perhaps she could at least go and speak to the travellers concerned to understand their views before spouting off - or perhaps she felt well enough informed by her childhood prejudices."
ReplyDeleteSorry to dissapoint you but a lot of anti-gypsy feeling is based on cold hard facts and experience. Ironically my parents remember them from their childhood and recall that they were much more civilised.
"And where exactly does she propose that the travellers go and live - buying a house might not be a possibility."
So local councils should therefore be required to provide them with taxpayer funded facilities against the wishes of the local community? If you wish to live a nomadic life then you have to accept that you don't have a God-given right to park on private property or be given land for free by the state.
For those who are reading the comments of the poster known as "no longer anonymous" the following is a request made by a pensioner on Guidos' blog for a reduction in the use of expletives being posted and the reply by the fair minded "no longer anonymous" is also noted.
ReplyDeleteThe pensioners posting..
"They are therefore not delusional unlike the folk who post on this blog,just seen a comment on another thread where a posting by a "true tory" noted that over on Iain Dale's blog the likes of shotgun and his supporters with their obscene postings are banned,just a brusque exchange of views is allowed, it would be I feel beneficial if this blog had similar high principles to those of Iain and his supporters."
The posting by "no longer anonymous" was brief...
I hope someone rips your fingernails out.
Problems with so-called gypsies are not restricted to rural sites. Our London suburban area used to get regular 'visits' from these groups (who are no more genuine gypsies than I'm Queen of Rumania) - petty burglaries rose sharply, green spaces were vandalised, front gardens were used as lavatories, etc, etc. The Council got tough and physical barriers were put up to stop the caravans, and it worked.
ReplyDeleteThere has been a permanent encampment at an East London site at the junction of several main roads for years. Like all the other similar sites, it is a rubbish tip.
Should we be surprised? After all, the Conservatives are the sister party of the ODS, and it was the ODS Mayor of Usti nad Labem in the Czech Republic, Ladislav Hruška, who (amongst other things) proposed building a wall around the gypsy community in his town in 1999.
ReplyDeletePerhaps Nadine should invite him over for some tips and to discuss some of his other ideas?
Perhaps Nadine should set up a twinning between Flitton and Usti nad Labem?
Or perhaps she should read up on the porajmos and ponder why it is that the Gypsies are the only group who suffered genocide during the holocaust (proportionally more Roma were murdered than Jews) and towards whom it's OK to be racially prejudiced in today's caring, sharing Conservative party?
That post is excreable Iain, it really is. And excrementous to boot.
ReplyDeleteNothing racist AT ALL? You're having a laugh ain't ya, well ain't ya?
The only thing that might make it less than full on racist is the clever way the mid-Bedfordshire bigot has conflated Irish travellers, Gypsies (er, Tramps and Thieves too, lest we forget), and anyone who travels into some poorly remembered (but actually genial and loveable) caravaners.
Is this a side swipe at Margaret Beckett? or do you really believe that taking responsibility away from local authorities was a progressive and justifiable thing to do? Would Dave/id Cameroonie the nu-age cuddly Tory gentleman take the responsibility back off them?
Goodness knows travellers of all stripes can be one side of some friction when they pitch up at non-sites with no waste disposal, plumbing or access. But that's the point. Sites with waste handling, plumbing and power and proper access make sense and Nadine is a gibbering bigot.
Travellers cannot even buy land and create their own properly managed static sites because of NIMBYISM. I covered some of this as a cub-reporter circa 1985 and in that case the "problem" was Showmen who travel with Fairs for six month of the year - enterprising, mobile, flexible, licensed and respectable businesses - and need a site for the other six months.
The objectors - including stalwart socialists and Labourists I'll have you know - wished the site to be transferred from some very suitable land in Collyhurst to some very unsuitable land in Rusholme (now regenerated as the heart of the curry mile). Why? Because the Cllr responsible - one Arnold Spencer - lived there.
Pathetic. It's difficult. But sorry Iain Nadine is ga-ga. And you are showing some signs of this by linking to her excreable views.
Makes me spit.
Whatever next? The way we do things in England does not include the smell of curry cooking, the extravaganza of carnival, the mounting of chavi satellite dishes, or alas the frummy curls (and hot girls allegedly at this link) of those orthodox jews over there?
The Campaign for Racial Equality has a good page on gypsies and travellers.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.cre.gov.uk/gdpract/g_and_t_facts.html
The irony is it's supposed to be defending them, but reading between the lines it rather proves the detractors' points.
"There are not enough authorised sites for Gypsies and Irish Travellers
Local authorities used to have a legal duty to provide sites for Gypsies and Irish Travellers.
There are now too few sites to accommodate all Gypsies and Irish Travellers.
The lack of permanent and transit sites throughout the country has forced Travellers to camp wherever they can. "
Er no, they can just buy some land like anybody else.
"The latest figures from the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (ODPM) show that 28% or 4,232 are on unauthorised developments or encampments "
Wow, 28% of all developments illegal. Imagine if 28% of all houses were illegal - the country would be screwed.
"Less than a quarter of local authorities always, or often, give advice on where to buy land for Gypsy sites, and although over two-thirds give advice at the later stage on preparing planning applications, this is often not publicised (2)."
If you want planning permission, you ask the council, not the other way round.
"Some Gypsies and Irish Travellers feel that the planning system is so weighted against them that they would stand a better chance of getting permission if they were already established on a site when their application was assessed. "
In other words, many gypsies ignore the law.
"Gypsies and Irish Travellers do pay taxes
Those living on unauthorised encampments do not pay rates, but they also dont receive services.
All are charged VAT on everything they buy."
Er, that doesn't sound like a very good justification. They obviously do get services, paved roads, hospitals, etc.
Perhaps we could all opt not to pay income taxe and council tax and then say "not getting any services, we're not going to pay".
"Although the majority of Gypsies and Irish Travellers remove their rubbish before they move on, it has been found that where there has been a Traveller encampment there has, on occasion, been refuse and discarded household items left. "
Surely not.
"Many councils have found that it is cost effective to provide skips and portable toilets."
Er, I thought they weren't getting any services. Reading between the lines is not pretty.
"There is no evidence to suggest that incidence of crime is far higher amongst Gypsies and Irish Travellers"
*Far higher*? So they're saying it is higher, just not *far* higher. Hmm, that ain't good.
"Criminal justice agencies do not ethnically monitor Gypsies and Irish Travellers, so accurate statistics are not available."
So they aren't saying that it ISN'T far higher, there's just no statisitics.
"Gypsy and Irish Traveller pupils in England are the group most at risk of failure in the education system"
Eh? "At risk of failure" implies that the fault is with anyone other than the gypsies themselves for not working hard in school. Since when did "at risk of failure" become a lefty synonym for "somebody else should take the blame for your own failings".
"In 2003, 23% of Roma Gypsy pupils and 42% of Irish Traveller pupils in England obtained five or more A*-C GCSEs, compared with an overall average of 51%. 22% of Roma Gypsy pupils and 17% of Irish Traveller pupils obtained no passes, compared with 6% on average. Gypsy and Irish Traveller children, particularly those of secondary age, have much lower levels of school attendance than pupils from other groups. By Key Stage 3, it is estimated that only 15-20% of Traveller pupils are registered or regularly attend school. "
Hmm yes, that's true, but aren't the CRE supposed to be defending gypsies not slagging them off? If this is the pro-gypsy page, I'd hate to see the non-pro one.
I actually feel sorry for the hand-wringers on here who see the travellers are a persecuted minority and rush to their defence.
ReplyDeleteI suggest you contact the Evening Echo in Essex about their investigations into travelling families and the criminal and corrupt practices they have been using to buy land to develop for other "travellers".
We are talking about millions of pounds passing between the families, threats, intimidation and completely hostile behaviour to local residents.
Lenin had a phrase for these hand-wringers I think he called them "useful fools". Believe me that's exactly how travellers regard them.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteThis subject has provoked strong reactions. I have had to moderate comments fairly heavily. If you swear your comment will not appear.
ReplyDeleteRather sadly, this very serious debate is being led down entirely the wrong path by the half-witted Dorries woman. If you give the 'useful fools' the slightest whiff of racism you end up having the cretinous arguments listed above.
ReplyDeleteThis isn't a racist issue.
This is an issue about a group of people who choose to live outside the law - race doesn't enter into it.
For those of us living in the country whose property is stolen and vandalised with increasing regularity by these people and who receive no protection whatever from a Police 'service' cowed into inactivity by the PC brigade, this is a very serious issue. It certainly deserves a more intelligent debate than Nadine Dorries is capable of leading.
Gypsies and Smacks - both cultures need to be controlled, both cultures need a place. Both display a thesis of freedom and an antithesis of crime.
ReplyDeleteThe stupid and lazy left wing offer multi-culturism. The stupid and lazy right wing offer national-prototypes. Others say nothing.
Intelligent synthesis appears beyond politicians and commentators.
A lot of people sending comments assume that there is a solution to this problem if only we looked hard enough. Sometimes there is no solution; it is the conflicting interests of fox and chickens. Farmer Giles, you speak from experience and are dead right.
ReplyDeleteI told you so Iain, this is the kind of topic which brings out the dark side of normally decent folk.I said earlier I think you made a mistake in starting this Thread and having read the comments still think I was right.Saw you on Sky last night very impressive,has Guido asked for your help when he next wonders out of the shadows ?
ReplyDeleteIain,
ReplyDeleteThe council run travellers site in Cleeve Prior in Evesham has just been raided by the police. Almost everything that had been reported stolen via burgalries in Evesham over the last six months was recovered, and a lot more besides!
Vienna Woods,
ReplyDelete'Racialism'?
That's beyond satire.
Mike, I understand your point, but the logical conclusion is that I would steer clear of any sibject which might be controversial and attract posts which I might not agree with. Sometimes you can't win.
ReplyDeleteI enjoyed the Sky News appearance. I'm now going to be doing it on the first Friday of every month.
There's no 'dark side' being displayed when people vent their anger at the behaviour of 'gypsies' and their apologists.
ReplyDeleteNo one would mind at all at people making a choice to live as a settled person i.e. in a fixed and static abode or as a traveller, living in a caravan, tee-pee, tent or winnebago.
What 'we' (on the Dark side) do mind is the fact that 'we' pay for everything from Council Tax. Income Tax, VAT, Road Tax, etc etc. If we don't, we are easily traced and made to pay either via the police and other [law]enforcement agencies or with the threat to our status [credit ratings] via the civil courts. The vast majority of gypsies/travellers don't pay such taxes, nor do they offer to, and the fatuous statement that they pay VAT etc makes the dark side very angry.
They fail to clear up, soemtimes leaving local authorites, private individuals and other bodies with quite enormous sums to find to clear up their stinking awful mess - a few years ago it cost the Thames Barrier nearly £15K to clear up after an incursion by them, and their costs continued with the hiring of extra security guards and other means to ensure this didn't happen again. There's no visitors car park there anymore - all barriered off, which is a reseource no longer availble to visitors, walkers and cyclist aho used to use it o explore this part of the Thames.
All of the traveller families concerned drove top of the range BMW or mercedes saloons + the usual monster 4X4 vehicles which they use to go out and defraud pensioners charging stupid prices for alleged work.
It is disgraceful. the other reasons for anger have been mentioned before by others, but clearly what applies to us law abiding 'settled' people doesn't to travellers, especially with regard to unlawful sites &developments.
Private individuals have to pay for legal action which is defended by the travellers often with 'legal aid' being given.
chris paul - don't you mean execrable ?
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletePoor old Mike! You did make me chuckle - what a feisty old bigger eh?
ReplyDeletefarmer giles said...Poor old Mike! You did make me chuckle - what a feisty old bigger eh?
ReplyDeleteThe fact that you did not take the bait and insult me a poor pensioner shows you to be not such a nasty fellow after all.Perhaps just a little misunderstood.
"The posting by "no longer anonymous" was brief...
ReplyDeleteI hope someone rips your fingernails out."
Oh you're not still going on about that are you? It was supposed to be a deliberately dark and warped comment. I'm actually quite friendly in real life and believe it or not I'm not that keen on bad language either. But nor can I stand excessive sanctimony.
no longer anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteOh you're not still going on about that are you?
Yes.
It was supposed to be a deliberately dark and warped comment.
It was.
I'm actually quite friendly in real life.
O.K. consider our feud over.
Nadine writes: I sang the well know song by Cher all the way home from a meeting tonight. I know all the words, I bet you do too.
ReplyDelete"I spent the night in Flitton Village Hall in the company of over 500 residents." Gosh, I've never heard this song by Cher. Maybe it was after she and Sonny split up and she felt she needed to hone in a bit.
Nadine's post was very strong (and entertaining) and perhaps signals the beginning of a turnaround. I hope I'm not militating against anything she wrote in her post, when I point out - as a reader of Lavengro - that "travellers" aren't Gypsies. "Travellers" are hippies operating in the Seventies of "ya gotta fight the system, man! The system's screwed, man!" They are not ethnic Romanies.
So it's two problems. I think the Romanies will be easier to deal with. It's the "travellers "We're brave social outcasts but we have our rights to other people's money because it's the system, man! Also, so we need Pampers, man!"
I don't romanticise the Romanies, as George Borrow did (I think; some may argue), but they had a culture, as primitive as it was, and were a cohesive ethnic group. They were a race, and probably still are. British "travellers" had a 2000-year culture of being British and abandoned it for self-indulgence and dependency.
Ezra - And?
Anonymous 5:01. Marie-Antoinette did not say, "Let them eat cake!" She said "Let them eat brioches!" meaning rolls.
bj - "Plain racism". Since when were "travellers" a race? You mean, when I "travel" on a plane, I am melded into a race with all my fellow passengers? That is so scarey! Many are fat!
Ezra says of Nadine, "And she doesn't address the idea of what to do with gypsies."
Why do anything with them? They're free people. But they can't trespass, as none of us is allowed to do. If trespassing, they should be arrested and, if found guilty in a magistrates' court, fined. Or imprisoned. Life is like that, and has been so for around 10,000 years. Contribute or sod off.Do they give birth au naturel? If not, having not contributed, they should. But you don't have to "do something" with them.
Doing nothing is the best option.
Alex: A tiny reality check for you. You say: "But don't say that all 'gypsies' are the same, and that they have racially defined characteristics that involve dirt, poor dental hygiene, and a tendency to criminality." The only thing is, well, yes.
The notional "travellers" are volunteers in the hippies manqué format of 40 years ago.
They have no entitlements to anything. Would I let them starve?
Where is my post? Is it the Hesitation Waltz again? Post a comment and then wait for it to be "approved"?
ReplyDeleteFarmer Giles - who cares? You're a weaselly little person. Why not take control of your MP and your local council? You're the vote-holder. This makes you the boss of the elected representatives. Explain the facts of life to them.
ReplyDeleteWhy can't you understand, as American voters do, that you are the boss and your representative is there to serve you?
Or else?
Why do you tolerate the brain dead regulating your lives? This is why Britain is in the state it's in. Abdication of responsibility because other people - the Trots like the dead-eyed Margaret Beckett and her old husband of 82 who dodders along on the payroll of the British taxpayer as her "personal assistant"? You deserve everything you get.
You never took control. Look at the number of outraged people on this thread.
And guess what! Sometimes, 'racist' tells you everything you need to know.
For example, you are in a trouble spot in the world and you would do anything to get out, the best words you could hear are "It's OK, the Americans have helicopters and medical staff on the way and you're going to be picked up within five minutes!"
THANK YOU, GOD!
How about, "Aussie helicopters are on their way!" Would you feel heartened? I certainly would.
The British Navy's on its way ... Oh, God, please, no!
Is this 'racist'? Or reality?
You people need to sit down and take a deep breath, preferably upwind of a "traveller" site where they are smoking their God-given skunk. Paid for by people who are awoken by the alarm at 6:30 and jump up, get breakfast for their children, get their children dressed and driven to school, and then drive to the station, pay an obscene amount of money to park their car, if they can find a spot, and get on a train to a big city so they can be at work by 9 a.m.
You people who call people who object to the destruction of civilised standards as "racist" make me sick. Next time you get trapped in the London Underground and fear an attack by mad Islamicists, call your local Traveller Swat Team for assistance.
Do you wonder that almost 4m indigenous Britons have left Britain since the Trots got in?
Ezra says: I can't believe you posted this Iain. What if "Gypsies" was substituted for "black" or "muslims"?
ReplyDeleteYeah, but they're not, you self-righteous prat.
Well, Well, coincidences do happen! I've just returned from a walk to our local bakery shop. On the way I noticed that the twice yearly invasion of French travelers has began on a local farmers field. The gate and fence have been torn down and a collection of new Mercedes, BMW offroaders and caravans are parked there. The refuse is starting to pile up already and I've just taken a deviation to avoid human excreta and toilet paper strewn across the footpath. At the bakery a new mercedes 'S' class is parked at an angle blocking the way for any other cars to park. The driver is in the shop with his kids who are storming around the shop helping themselves while the frustrated manageress is trying to control the thievery. An angry guy storms into the shop and enquires which idiot has parked so badly and guess what our friendly traveler says? "I will report you for discriminating against me". Rather bemused by this episode which was changing by the minute, two of our polizei arrived. Now, out here the PC crowd haven't quite got it together yet and our boys in blue are not too friendly. Minutes later outside the shop three kids are standing in a sea of pastries and one cop is snarling into the face of their father. On the way home I see more police arriving at the site and make good my escape. Listening to the radio news just now, two garages and a pub were robbed last evening and the security cameras clocked a French number plate which has been traced to the site. Of course the other travelers don't know who it belongs to!
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ReplyDeleteverity said... April 15, 2007 2:47 AM
ReplyDeleteFarmer Giles - who cares?
Well are you a mouse or a man Farmer Giles ? reply robustly silly fellow don't let her talk to you like that.
a friend said...
ReplyDeleteverity said... April 15, 2007 2:47 AM
Farmer Giles - who cares?
Well are you a mouse or a man Farmer Giles ? reply robustly silly fellow don't let her talk to you like that.
--------------------------------
Well friend, I really don't know what 'Verity' is on about there, I think she agrees with me, but had a go becasue I haven't got any control over my MP. I don't know anyone who has, do you? My sitting MP retires at the next general election and I know we certainly won't be getting a 'Nadine' in their place. How do you control them, once they're in that's it for a while, and if you don't vote for them you might let a nasty little trot in for a while, or a nasty little Nazi, or a silly little 'green' type person.
Still I think she apologized to everyone a little later on, and I generally do enjoy the rantings of 'Verity' and whoever she is (I take it it is a 'she') she gets plenty of flak off everyone else. I enjoyed vienna woods posting as it is getting to that time of year and it will be a fairly common occurrence all over the countryside. I know our post office will get busy in the coming months, and the horse and carts come out. England in the 21st Century - bliss!
You British have been completely cowed by the Socialist Fascist Party. Why shouldn't Little Black Sambo post under any name he chooses? If you don't like it, don't read his posts?
ReplyDeleteBritain has gone from being the home of robust freedom of speech and thought to cowed obedience in 10 years, and not just because of the the power-mad great dictator in No 10. He couldn't have gained control over British people's consciousness in 10 short years had he not had an eager army of helpers, collaborators, informers and keen thought lieutenants. People are now so cowed they are not only self-policing, but police each other with vicious pleasure.
BTW, the two previous posts above from "me" are not. They are from an imposter who can't even get my patterns of speech right. So, a tin-eared imposter. At the times he posted, it wasn't even time to get up in my part of the world.
BTW, Iain, the same person seems to be impersonating Vienna Woods, also. Vienna Woods does not post in that tone of voice.
I have deleted the Verity imposter posts. If Vienna Woods would like to tell me if there any imposters, I will do the same.
ReplyDeleteverity said...BTW, the two previous posts above from "me" are not.
ReplyDeleteHow can you call someone posting in the name of Verity an imposter or "me",you do not have the sole rights to use that name you sanctimonious plonker.
Iain Dale said... I have deleted the Verity imposter posts.
Iain why did you remove the other posts under the name of Verity ? Don't please give me the "well it's my blog and I will only allow a blog name I approve of" rebuke.I think the decent thing would be to delete all posts by anyone calling themselves Verity or Vienna Woods now or in the future as that woman and her meandering drivel is doin' me head in.
Thank you, Iain.
ReplyDeleteMike, "as that woman and her meandering drivel is doin' me head in." Why do you get so emotional and try to personalise everything, Mike?
Farmer Giles - Forgive me if I snapped, but the cowed attitude the English have to their elected representatives offends me. You, the electorate, are the master. They have been put in office to serve YOU, their paymaster. If they don't please you, you won't vote for them again, and may work actively against them.
Most of them (not all; there are honourable exceptions, as we all know; Mr Patrick Mercer comes to mind) are cowards. And they're greedy. They want to keep their jobs. That means pleasing not just one boss, but thousands.
Legislators in the US really do need their large staffs because the voters are very interactive. They don't complain. They take action. Boom! A phone call! Boom! A follow-up email! Boom! A new message; "I didn't like your explanation."
I've gone into all this before and won't do so again, but let me just point to one thing that illustrates the entire relationship in the US between the voter and the elected representative: Every elected official in the US, from the dog catcher to the President of the United States, addresses the voter as "Sir" or "Ma'am". Not Mr Jones. Not Carol. But "Sir" or "Ma'am". And this describes the whole relationship. The President acknowledges that it is a compact between the elector and the elected and that he is working for you and you are the boss. The most powerful man in the world calls them "sir". I find it immensely touching.
I'd be interested to hear what Iain, who is just back from DC, has to say on this chasm between attitudes in our two countries.
I do think British voters need to become much more demanding. That Tony Blair has succeeded in destroying a cohesive, rich, well-run country with an enviable civil society in just 10 years tells me everything I need to know about the British voter. They let it happen.
verity said...
ReplyDeleteMike, "as that woman and her meandering drivel is doin' me head in." Why do you get so emotional and try to personalise everything, Mike?
You preach Verity and that I find annoying,you talk about me personalising everything,on this thread alone you have.......
verity said...Why shouldn't Little Black Sambo post under any name he chooses? April 15, 2007 2:57 PM
Because it is racist you bigot that's why for Gods sake !
verity said...
Yeah, but they're not, you self-righteous prat. April 15, 2007 2:47 AM
What do you call that remark if not personal you objectionable person.
verity said...
Farmer Giles - who cares? You're a weaselly little person. April 15, 2007 2:45 AM
That is a nasty,nasty thing to post.
verity said...
I do think British voters need to become much more demanding. That Tony Blair has succeeded in destroying a cohesive, rich, well-run country with an enviable civil society in just 10 years tells me everything I need to know about the British voter. They let it happen.
April 15, 2007 5:51 PM
You've got a bloody nerve telling the British voter what to do when you live in Mexico.
You really are a most dislikable person who thinks too much of herself,as long as you post in this vein I will be here to respond,unless Iain deletes my posts again !
"Mike", I suggest you cool it with the personal abuse.
ReplyDeleteLittle Black Sambo is utilising his freedom speech, and I don't know that he recognises your authoritiy to shut his freedom of speech down.
Meanwhile, I am British and I have a vote by birthright and I am going to vote.
verity said...
ReplyDelete"Mike", I suggest you cool it with the personal abuse.
What about your personal abuse as noted in my previous posting ? How about an apology to the posters you insulted ? Little Black Sambo is utilising his freedom speech,that is not freedom of speech it is called being racist,if you don't understand the difference then that would account for some of your postings. And don't presume to instruct me on what is acceptable or not Verity.
I have now deleted the three vienna woods posted by someone else. I will close this thread if people don't grow up. EIther dicuss the subject of the thread or move on.
ReplyDeleteIain Dale said...EIther dicuss the subject of the thread or move on.
ReplyDeleteo.k. moving on.
Anonymous
ReplyDelete"The council run travellers site in Cleeve Prior in Evesham has just been raided by the police. Almost everything that had been reported stolen via burgalries in Evesham over the last six months was recovered, and a lot more besides"
So not only are they thieves they also sound like spectacularly bad thieves as they hadn't managed to get rid of anything they'd nicked for 6 months. That - and my struggle to find any mention of this story on the web causes me some doubts....