"Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns - the ones we don't know we don't know." - February 2002"Reports from London are already telling of calm passengers, compassionate strangers, and courageous rescuers. And that too is familiar -- the grace and humanity that contrasts vividly with the hatred and violence of terrorists. The London attacks have a special resonance for the American people -- for America has no stronger or closer ally in the world than Great Britain. We are bound together by a common heritage, a common language, and a deeply shared commitment to freedom. As President Bush indicated earlier this morning, the United States will stand with the British people with unflinching resolve...But if these terrorists thought they could intimidate the people of a great nation, they picked the wrong people and the wrong nation. For generations, tyrants, fascists, and terrorists have sought to carry out their violent designs upon the British people only to founder upon its unrelenting shores. Before long, I suspect that those responsible for these acts will encounter British steel. Their kind of steel has an uncommon strength. It does not bend or break. The British have learned from history that this kind of evil must be confronted. It cannot be appeased. Our two countries understand well that once a people give in to terrorists demands, whatever they are, their demands will grow. The British people are determined and resolute. And I know the people of the United States are proud to stand at their side." - July 2005
43 comments:
'ere we go again: scroll a million miles for one of your posts.
I know that it's not fashionable to say it BUT I quite like his first quote. He probably could have been more eloquent but so what? As you get older, you realise how increasingly uncertain life is. What you would have considered to be a fact 20 years ago, you now think is opinion.
That first quote reminds me of a Chinese proverb I last heard over twenty years ago:
A man who knows not and knows that he knows not is humble - teach him.
A man who knows and knows not that he knows is asleep - awaken him.
A man who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool - avoid him.
a man who knows and knows that he knows is wise - follow him.
The second quote should be more widely circulated. As someone who represents Londoners, I greatly appreciate his sentiments. Am I alone in my respect for Rumsfeld?
But, Achilles,Rumsfeld's whole problem was that he DIDN't know how uncertain life was. See my post on the subject.
I too like the first quote. It's not just perfectly true but it expresses that truth in an interesting and amusing way.
But I think the second one, while flattering, is just a romantic delusion. I don't think the British, brought up on a diet of the (institutionally liberal) BBC since childhood, are the sort of people any longer that Mr Rumsfeld describes. I wish we were, but we are not. Confronted with extremism these days (whether from religious fanatics, Trade Union militants, health and safety fascists or swivel-eyed Federasts) our instincts are to appease them. And the USA is going the same way.
"Our two countries understand well that once a people give in to terrorists demands, whatever they are, their demands will grow."
We do indeed understand that; I believe the learned Mr. Secretary Rumsfeld was in fact refering to the Boston so-called tea-party of 1773.
That first one is straight out of 'Yes, Minister'. Class! Surely it was the result of some bet he had with boys: "You don't think I'll say it do ya?"
The second one makes you think why such straight talking and common sense wasn't applied more, er, liberally during his time in office.
That first one is straight out of 'Yes, Minister'. Class! Surely it was the result of some bet he had with boys: "You don't think I'll say it do ya?"
The second one makes you think why such straight talking and common sense wasn't applied more, er, liberally during his time in office.
@ rush is right
People thought the same thing in the 1930's when the Oxford Union passed the King and Country motion. Not even the BBC, NuLab and the HSE combined can extinguish the spirit of Queen Elizabeth, Nelson, Churchill and Margaret Thatcher. Just look at the bravery, patriotism and skill our forces are showing in Iraq and Afghanistan right now.
I like both quotes. Rummy is not perfect, but was the only original and interesting mind in the Bush administration. Original and interesting do not mean right, of course.
I too am a fan of the first quote. It is accurate, deals with subtle concepts and wastes no words. Rumsfeld richly deserved the sack, but despite the ridicule he got for that quote, it was a perfectly sensible observation, and the people who mocked it only showed their own stupidity.
May I recommend the book 'Pieces of Intelligence, The Existential Poetry of Donald H.Rumsfeld". A wonderful work of art of the best )and most poetic) quotes from the man himself. I picked it up in the states last year but I'm sure it'll be on Amazon.
I find the second quote very inspiring.
So Iain your second quote posting shows a level of insincere bovinexcremental rhetoric that marches Dastardly don's disconnection with the planet in the first lines.
Rock on.
Can anyone think of a goodie to get Cheney to slide down the drain too?
The first quote always reminds me of a paper I read whilst studying Philosophy at Uni, entitled: "If I know, do I know that I know?".
More prosaically, I guess what was worrying friend Rumsfeld was that it's precisely what you don't know you don't know that tends to appear out of nowhere and bite you on the bum!
(At least if you know you don't know something you can direct the CIA to find out about it.)
I assume your point is that the first quote is garbage and the second eloquent and inspiring.
However the second was quite likely written by a speech writer or aide, whereas the first represents the real Rumsfeld.
So there's no contradiction is there?
I loved the first quote the first time I heard it. Pithy and interesting.
Second quote is good no matter who spoke it. Glad it was Ol' Rummy.
He made a lot of mistakes but I have to say I don't see him as a villainous character. Misguided and dogmatic, but wanted to do the right thing.
Pity the EU is slowly taking our freedoms away that so many before us fought so hard for.
I had never heard of the second quote actually. Typical media bias in reporting I suspect.
However, it does almost bring a tear to your eye. Very moving I think.
Iain, British Steel has flexibility and common semse. Rumsfeld hasn't.
The twats history, should have been so a long time ago. He is a pratt.
Th neo cons are now looking to blame us for not telling them they were pratts. See:
http://aconservatives.blogspot.com/2006/11/mess-in-iraq-its-all-our-fault-offciail.html
Go figure?
I'm no fan of Rumsfeld and certainly not shedding any tears over his long-overdue departure, but that second quotation is, as Sam says, very inspiring and certainly deserves far wider attention (that's the first time I'd ever seen/heard of that quote).
And the first quotation is actually quite sensible, although it was very poorly expressed I thought.
I had a go at tackling Rummy's sophistry back in April.
On the other hand, if you enjoy his mawkish flummery, I'll leave you to your innocent pleasures (but can't you spot someone trying to manipulate you when your defences are down?).
You can lie, manipulate the truth and prove to be so incompetent that thousands die by your mistakes, and others are tortured on your watch, yet you keep your job. Yet when a few Senators lose their seats, it's time to go.
Rumsfeld held onto his job longer than most failures do.........Bush is too lax and let his presidency be ruined by indecision and crass stupidity as Pentagon and Foggy Bottom fought out their own private war with Rumsfeld having his man to run Iraq, the friend of the Kurds replaced by Bremer who disbanded the Iraqi Army - the one institution holding the country together
Long on rhetoric, short on competence. The second quote is the sort of smoozing that he cynically used to get countries like us to enter illegal wars. Flattery gets you everywhere. Rumsfeld is the ultimate cynic.
so farewell Scrummy Rummy
the Philosopher King.
Your "commitment to freedom"
was badly misinterpreted.
Ding-Dong, the witch is dead. It's just too bad that a couple of thousand Americans and god knows how many Iraqis had to go first to assuage this chickenhawk's dreams of glory. He can't skulk out of the Pentagon fast enough for me (or for the American military, which detests him and rightfully so).
The man knowingly sacrificed the lives of American soldiers to see if his theories would work. Not, note, in the misguided belief that they would work, but rather to test them. They didn't, and now neither does he.
So farewell Scrummy Rummy
the Philosopher King.
Your "shared commitment to freedom"
was badly misinterpreted.
I think Rummy traduced and trashed Americas reputation around the world in seeming to both condone and exercise torture as a policy and rubbishing the advice of his military. But compared to the weasel mouthed and slippery statements of most politicians and especially the UKs Blair/Blairite ones he was a breath of fresh air. At least you knew what he thought. In an odd way, I'll miss him
Rumsfeld is hubris personified. His powerful army his Achilles heel since it could be used as a substitute for engaging his brain in considering the wider implications of the consequences of regime change. There was no prospect at all of imposing democracy on Iraq.
I'll miss Rumsfeld, one of the few genuinely interesting people in international politics at the moment. The "unknown unknowns" speech will still be being repeated in years to come - but will any one even remember that there was a Des Browne or Geoff Hoon let alone anything they've ever said?
Only Rumsfeld could have had the insight to realise that with a new approach Iraq could be captured with a handfull of troops - but only Rumsfeld could have had the blindness to think you could hold Iraq with a handfull of troops. Oh well.
Could one of the anti-Rumsfeld commenters please tell us ignoramuses what is wrong or logically incorrect with the first quote. It seems to me that it encapsulates accurately the point he was seeking to make.
The second quote is, of course, out and out flattery: very pleasing to receive and probably well-meant. That it is based on a mistaken American view of the "British" as uniformly calm and phlegmatic has more to do with Rumsfeld's knowledge of a previous generation of Brits and ignorance of how things have changed.
The "known unknown" quote is now very commonly used and mis-used in business. I thoroughly recommend it as a device to get out of telling your boss the truth which is that you have no idea if you will hit his sales target. I will remember Rummy with fondness for it.
I am a fan of Chinese proverbs, in particular, 'Be careful what you wish for, you might get it'..or words to that effect.
I agree the first quote has been much maligned, but whilst unwieldy the world of 'project management' recognises it all too well.
I would say that the cost of the NHS IT project could well fall into the category of unknowns..
As for the second quote, well it doesn't absolve him from being in a large way responsible for the increase in terrorist atrocities.
And many an American family is grieving for a loved one lost in the Iraqi adventure which, even if it were legal and justifiable, had shamefully been mismanaged with too few troops and a complete disregard of the 'State Dept.' plan for post war reconstruction.
Very few tears will be shed.
Roger Evans: 'As someone who represents Londoners, I greatly appreciate his sentiments. Am I alone in my respect for Rumsfeld?'
a) Almost certainly you are alone.
b) Have you asked those that you 'represent'? Almost certainly not.
Rumsfeld is/was a highly dangerous egoist. His grasp of military issues was - at best - rudimentary. His understanding of Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran etc was minimal.
Worse, he was unable to recognise that there might be others whose knowledge and ability far exceeded his own. He could have used other people's expertise judiciously and wisely, but chose not to.
Sadly, though, he's not the only one who should have left (or been ejected from) the Bush entourage. What about Cheney, Rice and all the others? What have they done for - and to - their country?
roger evans (8:13), As someone who represents Londoners, I greatly appreciate his sentiments. Am I alone in my respect for Rumsfeld?
Two questions:
1 on which platform do you "represent Londoners"? I, a Londoner, have never heard of you.
2 why should someone so indifferent to suffering - whether it is US soldiers returning home maimed, disfigured, psychotic, or half a million Iraqi civilians - be respected by anyone?
Can I take this opportunity to say how wonderful it is to see Tony Blair suddenly out in the cold as the result of the Republicans losing control of the US administration.
Except the IRA, we dealt with them by war and then they surrendered ,eh?
Unless terrorist groups fizzle out due to lack of support, you always have to bargain with them; It's called politics .
Rumsfeld caused many more problems than he solved with his ideological straightjacket.
Time to move on.
city unslicker
"Unless terrorist groups fizzle out due to lack of support, you always have to bargain with them; It's called politics"
And exactly how do we deal with terrorists with the same beliefs as the 7/7 crowd?
I think he's alright. would have made a good president. he's a kind of "central casting" tough-guy republican. and he tells people who don't rate him to f*ck off, which is endearing in a politician of any stripe.
Umbungo,
It is very hard to know; but as we don't even try to speak to Al-Qaeda or the Taleban we will only have limited information.
Don't get me wrong, this is not surrender or suggesting we do no have our security services try to prtoect us as far as is possible. But 'the war' will not be won with troops and bombs alone, as is demosntrated in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Rumsfeld, who held this belief, has just lost his job due to his intransigence on this issue.
The ruthless bastard's ruthless little bastard to paraphrase the words of Richard Nixon.
I like both quotes. Both intelligent and show he is politically sound.
If only there were people like Rumsfeld in the world, we would have defeated these people long ago. Now for the surrender monkeys.
8:38 AM raincoaster "Ding-Dong, the witch is dead ...this chickenhawk ...
Miaow
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