My old boss David Davis has a rather good article in the Telegraph HERE on the Muslim policeman who asked to be removed from guarding the Israeli Embassy. As I was driving to the station yesterday morning I listened to an interview on 5 Live with a senior Met Officer who was trying to defend the indefensible. You could tell he really didn't believe a word he was saying but political correctness meant he had to follow a particular line.
As David Davis points out,
I do solemnly and sincerely declare and affirm that I will well and truly serve the Queen in the office of constable, with fairness, integrity, diligence and impartiality, upholding fundamental human rights and according equal respect to all people; and that I will, to the best of my power, cause the peace to be kept and preserved and prevent all offences against people and property; and discharge all the duties thereof faithfully according to law.
He goes on to ask: "...where do we draw the line? The most famous act of diplomatic protection in modern times was the resolution of the Iranian Embassy siege in the 1980s. Should we not have acted because many people disapproved of the Iranian regime at the time? Hardly. Should we accept that Sikh and Hindu officers can choose not to police the Pakistani High Commission? Or should we accept that police officers with strong religious beliefs against homosexuality should be able to exempt themselves from policing a Gay Pride march? Of course not.
Let me put it bluntly. If this officer thinks he can pick and choose his work within the Police Force he must be told bluntly that he cannot. He should have been given a choice. Continue at the Israeli Embassy or resign from the Police Force. It really is as simple as that.
Some papers are saying the officer concerned wanted to stay but was afraid for his family. Wouldn't you say that's grounds for compassionate rule change Iain? I think you're being a bit harsh. It's easy to talk but not so easy to be a police officer in the front line, as can be seen in many of the police blogs. We don't need tory kneejerkism and it won't help you get elected.
ReplyDeleteBlair Blair Blair
ReplyDeleteIt is my understanding that he just made some comment, and a senior officer then made the decision.
ReplyDeleteThe fact is the man had family in the area during the Lebonease Israel conflict.
I would not demand that some one who had family in Israel to guard either the Lebonease or Palestinian offices either.
It has got nothing to do with religion but quite a lot to do with family.
They also do not put officers who have lost children on cases involving the death of children.
Couldn't agree more. If people are in this country they must learn English, obey OUR laws and if they take an oath must live up to it. The Met has fallen even further in my estimation
ReplyDeleteReally at its root this is an argument for treating Muslim police officers as a special case. There is none, any more than Christian or Jewish etc officers.
ReplyDeleteDid no-one in the police stop to think where this line of PC reasoning might lead? It seems not. It is possible to devise quite plausible PC excuses for a variety of religious and ethical causes. Will an animal loving officer be able to refuse to guard the new research labs in Oxford because he supports animal rights? What about a pro-life Christian officer outside an abortion clinc? Selective policing is the road to anarchy.
I disagree with you completely on this one, Iain, if it was a matter of conscience. I see this case as directly comparable to this one:
ReplyDeletehttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/5301334.stm
While I believe that all of these people are misguided, there are few enough people who act on their consciences. We should not put additional hurdles in the way of those who wish to act according to their conscience.
Davis is right-as usual.
ReplyDeleteWhat a superb PM he would make!
PS-are we sure that Straw is only going for the Deputy job???
Absolutely spot on!
ReplyDeleteHold on Iain - first time in about six months of reading you but I think I disagree.
ReplyDeleteI'm as anti-political correctness as you but I think the media have made this a story about political correctness when it's actually a bit more subtle than that.
As I understand it the officer didn't refuse to serve and has since said he would have if his superiors had insisted. He simply expressed reservations about his personal safety and that of his family because of the conflict that was happening in Lebanon at that time. I've heard (but can't validate) that he happily served at the Israeli embassy before with no complaint.
Now, I'm still a little uneasy because I agree it would be completely unacceptable for someone's politics to determine their posting and there are overtones of that here - but to be fair Iain this situation is a little more subtle than that so we need to do that subtlety justice surely..?
I gather that the officer in question made a request, because of some concern for his family, and that his request was granted. No ultimatum, no refusal to obey an order, no "picking and choosing". An individual request was made and was granted. This has been taken out of all proportion and context which is most unlike you, Mr Dale. For shame.
ReplyDeleteI think you're right on this issue - the police must be impartial, and be seen to be so. Unfortunately, they weren't impartial when they were clubbing innocent Countryside Alliance supporters in Parliament Square. Were they being impartial when they allowed Islamic extremists to vent their spleen in recent demonstrations? I don't think so!
ReplyDeleteThis is the result of poltical appointments at the highest levels in the Police Force, encouraged by PC (pardon the pun!) idiots like the Met deputy chair who showed her true colours with her recent pronouncement on 'yobs'. At least she was elected, unlike the Commissioner, but even if he was, would it make any difference?
Just who is going to put this particular genie back into the bottle?
And another thing! It's interesting to note how quick the Met protested that this matter had 'nothing to do with political correctness'. It was all about risk assessment. We know from experience how good they are at safety management, especially when it comes to shooting innocent people and botched raids...they'll be telling us the moon is made from green cheese next!
ReplyDeleteWhat about the Scottish firemen who were demoted after refusing to give out leaflets at a recent gay pride march? One law for Muslims, another for all other public servants?
ReplyDeleteTo be fair, would you actually want a muslim guarding the Israeli embassy? If a truck full of explosives was hurtling towards it, he'd probably open the gate and wave them on their merry way.
ReplyDeleteThe way this story has been portrayed in the media is disgraceful and, as far as can see, part of a black propaganda drive designed to demonise muslims.
ReplyDeleteAs geoffers said, he put in a request because his wife is Lebanese, and Israel was committing the most appalling war crimes against a country in which he had family. There's a political agenda behind this story. Personally, I think Britain is screwed. We've gone fascist.
To all those posters who are arguing that the Met was right.
ReplyDeleteThe original report stated that he requested to be withdrawn for "political and moral grounds because he objected to Israeli foreign policy" (BBC) and that what appears to be an excuse about safety was put out by the Association of Muslim Police Officers
Had this officer's family actually been threatened? was he just concerned that they might be? or, and in my view this is the most likely, is this safety excuse just spin put on the issues after the event?
It seems we yet know the full details of this actual case, but that does not mean that we cannot draw certain conclusions about what should be done, depending on the particular circumstances.
ReplyDeleteOne: if the Muslin officer refused to do his legal duty, then he should have been obliged to resign as he had broken his oath as an officer. But more to the point, the most senior officer who did not insist he be fired, and so agreed to this craven example of PC gone mad, should resign.
Two: If the Muslin officer simply expressed concern but did not actually refused to do his legal duty, yet the Met decided to remove him from this task anyway, then the most senior officer who agreed to this craven example of PC gone mad, should resign.
So, either way, one or more senior head or heads should role at the Met. And those who must resign should be named this week; there is no excuse for delay.
Whatever of these two possiblities is right, this is a helluva way to run a supposedly serious police force.
I am as wary of the march of Islam as the next man but I think that Cassilis has got this absolutely right. PC Basha was concerned at the vulnerability of his family to reprisals by Islamic crazies. Surely we should be sympathising with, and supporting, a Police Officer who is more at risk of Islamofascist reprisal than most others. The story has been handled appallingly by the Met though. And Ian Blair is still a disastrous Chief Constable. There are parallels in recent history - For much of the troubles in Ireland Irish regiments such as the Irish Guards and the Royal Irish Rangers did not serve there, for precisely the fear of reprisal against those with connections in the area. If we could support Irish soldiers in that way we should be able to do the same for PC Basha.
ReplyDeleteI strongly disagree with you, Iain.
ReplyDeleteYou seem unable to be fair to Muslims. It's very unattractive.
If anyone missed it the most telling part of the article was this as a contrasting example of heroic duty
ReplyDelete"Brian McCargo, a Roman Catholic Chief Superintendent in the RUC, provides a striking example. During an interview in 2001, he explained:
"Not only was I reared in a nationalistic area, but … I played Gaelic football for Ardoyne. The day I started my training was Bloody Sunday … I was discouraged from living in the area by the paramilitaries. Had I persisted in living there, the chances are I'd have been shot dead… You can imagine the emotions that accompanied me when I went in, but never did I think: 'Why did I join the RUC'?... I respect people for what they are, irrespective of where they come from, and expect them to take me for what I am."
I understand the fears but I am getting really rather bored with this endless Muslim bashing . Perhaps like the wonderful David Davies we shoudl think harder about the alternative vision we have to offer .
Iain you seem to know all my favourite people. What a shame that with one dreadful Sparks gaff your reputation is stained beyond all hope of recovery.
Ian (Iain?) Hislop was right last night on QT, when he asked what better sign of British ethnic/religious integration could there be, than a Policeman of Lebanese ethnicity, protecting the Israeli embassy?
ReplyDeleteFunny how Brian Cargo didn't use the safety of his family as an excuse. Does this indicate that Islamic extremists are crazier than the IRA?
ReplyDeleteMy brother in law was a prison officer in Northern Ireland and accepted that the risk to him and his family was part of the job.
So, I am afraid no excuses for PC Basha on this one. You beared, sandal wearing lib dem types really are a craven bunch.
If this officer's family are of Lebanese/Syrian extraction with family members still in the Middle East, I would have thought he should have been refused transfer to the DPG on the grounds that he could be subjected to unreasonable external pressure. From one comment from an ex-soldier on another website (I think it was BBC HYS), he was not allowed to serve with the UN contingent in Cyprus precisely because of his Greek Cypriot parentage.
ReplyDeleteMethinks the same reasoning should have been applied here, but wasn't because PC considerations were allowed to over-ride all others. Hence the Chain of Command is at fault here, rather than the individual officer.
How many more mess-ups in the Met have to be exposed before Ian Blair (knighthood not deserved in my view) gets his much-deserved come-uppance?
Iain you are spot on. Are we going to end up with two societies; a non-muslim one and a muslim one. The muslim one can pick n' choose which rules and laws it wants to obey and muslims in general are differentially treated in both law and employment, such as PC Basha. NuLab still cringes in the face of militant muslims. This is a massive poilitical issue for the Tories to mine if they have the balls.
ReplyDeleteTapestry, fyi type in "Liar" into google and interestingly it returns the bios of both Tony Blair and his copper namesake Sir Ian !
MONG DRIP
ReplyDeleteGreat reading these right wing blogs and their "sycophantic comments"
Do you ever think or do you just paste Stan Lee style gabble in the hope someone else will supply the necessary irony. “Only the fundamentalist ones “ , really and do you know the inner feeling of British Muslims . No I thought not.
I can only hope you are not such a prissy self satisfied clod as you appear to be.
My guess is you are in fact a student and I therefore wish you alll the best with your exams.These will be in some some media related dumb pool hence your precocious me-me-isms. God what a waste of air you and all your verminous kind are.
Oh by the way Staan Lee used to write Marvel stories. I daresay you saw the fims
Mmm... reminds me of the baa baa black sheep nonsense. I would wait for more accurate facts before berating so willingly.
ReplyDeleteSo when this Muslim pc chose to apply for diplomatic protection work he was anaware that he had relatives living in Muslim countries and that Muslims kill the relatives of people doing things Muslims disapprove of - is that the latest version of this story???
ReplyDeleteIt says it all, that circumstances have arisen that we're even discussing this. Why, oh why, have we got ourselves involved in all these special rules? If you can't stick to our rules, bugger off, and take the whole awful Blair clan, in all its dreadful pc branches, with you.
ReplyDeleteBy the way what has happened to the funny Adam Rickety mixed metaphor.Something about viewing a pulse ( titter titter). Can we have it back it always made me laugh?
ReplyDeleteWell,all of us was related.(brothers)..
ReplyDeleteOnly politics that occasionally sowed discord from the side of the religious race!!
This entire debate is taking place way too far down the road.
ReplyDeleteBritan needs to make its positions clear a the point of entry into the coutry.
You have chosen a new life in the UK. This is how things are done here. You chose to come here and are free to leave at any time.
I think the real issue here is that the police should not be able to pick and chose what activities they feel they are able to do. Regardless of the threats or possible dangers against them, or indeed their family.
ReplyDeleteWhether or not it was on moral grounds, or with fears of reprisals, it is a dangerous sliding slope to creating deep divisions between the police and communities.
If muslim police officers fear action being taken against them by extremists, then should we have any muslims on the force? Each and everyone is a potential target after all.
Effectively that is the road which this potentially leads us on to.
The best way to combat extremists is to show that the police are just that, police. Not a white force of men and women, not a christian force, but officers of the law here to protect the public. Regardless of whether their faces are black or white, or their religion.
What it needs is Muslims who are members of the force to stand up, take their responsibilities as a police officer (which are higher and more important than most other jobs) over that of their religion and to do their duty, regardless of what that duty is.
Unfortunatly, for whatever reason, it didn't happen in this case.
Rabid? Put newmenias muzzle back on or send him back to UKIP. There are Penalties For Dangerous Behaviour By Dogs you know.
ReplyDeleteI think that the rather excitable chappie (who resembled the actor Richard Griffiths) on Question Time last night raised a good point. Why is that every time the Police have the most minor staffing issue with Muslim staff, the Sun newspaper always seems to get a juicy tip off from some shit-stirrer in the Force?
ReplyDeleteAll it does is give Muslims the idea that they are being made into villains at every turn, and gives the rest of the general public the idea that evil Muslims are constantly destroying our way of life and upsetting our Police Force with their wiley ways.
The Police leak like a sieve, and to be honest, the unprofessional attitude of those members of the Force (who will have probably signed the Official Secrets Act on joining) worries me. Those who leaked this tedious story are probably sitting round in the rec room laughing that they have managed to get another Muslim in trouble.
Anonymous of 11.33 has a point: 'are we sure that Straw is only going for the Deputy job???'
ReplyDeleteI have just watched BBC's One O'Clock News which led on the Jack Straw/veil controversy. The woman from an Asian network made a Freudian slip when she spoke about religious "dominations" instead of denominations. The presenter was Darren Jordan, who according to today's "Telegraph" is about to join al-Jazeera. Hmmm. Do you think he was the best choice of presenter to demonstrate the BBC's impartiality?
ReplyDeleteYou have Westminster connections Iain - can you confirm there's no substance to the rumours that John Prescott has misunderstood the row about Jack Straw and Muslim Burkhas and recently asked a female constituent to remove her blouse...
ReplyDelete...I would not demand that some one who had family in Israel guard either the Lebanese or Palestinian offices either... Of course he must. There's been too much of this conscience voting of late - without fear or favour is the way it must be done or not at all. He should have this explained or else he should leave the force.
ReplyDeleteThis PC, bearded and be-hatted, was unlikely to be recognised by anyone he knew (in the unlikely event that the telly crew wanted pics of DPG officers, rather than of the embassy itself, during the recent tiff between Lebanon and Israel).
ReplyDeleteErgo, I think this was cowardice and funk from the PC.
Sack the man. He sounds like an Iain Blairite to me, and the less of those in the Met the safer we all shall be.
No, Iain, I think you are wrong here.
ReplyDeleteI think on the whole that the police should not be able to pick and choose where and when they police. However, this was not a moral objection solely - although I think there is a legitimate case for arguing from a moral point of view that he could ask not to serve. Would, for example, we have asked a Northern Irish protestant bobby to guard the Eire embassy in the 1980s? He probably would never have been asked.
In fact this was not a moral decision, he asked because he has family in Lebanon and believed that this posting may have meant his family being targetted. This may be over-sensitivity on his part but when dealing with Jihadist thugs like Hizbollah, it is probably best to err on the side of caution.
It is easy to sneer 'Well didn't he think when he signed up to the Diplomatic Protection'. Well, perhaps, but the odds of being selected for the Israeli embassy were probably rather slim.
RS
Anti-frank is right to compare this with the firemen disciplined for refusing to hand out leaflets at a gay pride parade but I think draws the wrong conclusion. It was the fireman's case where the authorities were obnoxious.
ReplyDeleteOf course a policeman or fireman should carry out orders but any good officer knows that those under them are just human beings & tries to make allownces for personal feelings. That is all that has happened here.
Had the policeman refused to obey a direct order he should have been removed but quite sensibly it never came close to that.
David Davis is the bee's knees and I would be back in the Tory fold in a nanosecond were he to be named leader. Next time, the membership should vote. Those people in Westminster Village are so occupied in gazing at their own navel they only seek someone who will enhance their image. Not someone who can do the damn' job. Davis can do the job.
ReplyDeleteWhy would the Met bend to some pc's "comfort" because Lebanon allowed the Hezbollah to use its territory to fire rockets into Israel, murder Israeli citizens including children, and kidnap Israeli soldiers from Israeli territory? This has what, exactly, to do with Ian Blair and the Metropolitan Police of London?
I believe one of the latest versions of PC Basha's story is that he felt it morally repugnant to guard the Israeli embassy because of the bombing of Lebanon. Mind you, that might be the story as peddled by the Muslim Public Affairs Committee.
ReplyDeleteAs for the dividing line between personal and police work, how far is that to be taken? What of police officers who escort gangland criminals? Are their families not in danger? Should they not be excused?
Quite right, too.
ReplyDeleteCalm down Iain, that was almost a Conservative opinion!
ReplyDeleteHmmm...
ReplyDeleteIt would appear that Mr Davis consulted Cranmer, or saw the extensive quotation on ConservativeHome, before his radio interview.
Progress indeed.
Sorry Iain/David, but I can't agree.
ReplyDelete1. Northern Ireland is full of similar examples, despite DD's selective example. I know. I was there.
2. The man remains a policeman despite the fact that his employment is well known and well disliked among his own people. Indeed he came to notice preventing Muslim extremists handing out offensive anti homosexual material in North London.
3. The man did not refuse to police and was not concerned for his own safety, but for the safety of innocent extended family members in the Lebanon, for whom he could demonstrate a clear and present danger from the deported cleric, Omar Bakri Mohammed.
4. Policing has no comparison with soldiering and DD has no business trying to draw one.
5. This man is a policeman through torrid times and it is offensive in the extreme to caast him as an insubordinate coward when we know nothing of his service record.
I hope DD doesn't come to regret his knee-jerk rabble rousing comments. Simply by wearing the uniform in these times, he demonstrates considerable courage, but it may yet turn out that he has done other more exemplary things.
Mr Fruning (11:34), you say it right. The BNP boss in on retrial for saying Islam is a "vicious wicked faith" but islamic demonstrators repeatedly wave placards promoting mass murder (proving his point to some degree) and the MP does nothing, no arrests, no stopping the demos, NOTHING.
ReplyDeleteSome great stuff here from the States about this nonsense story.
ReplyDeletehttp://p100.ezboard.com/fthegoodthebadandtheugly49488frm63.showMessage?topicID=17931.topic
and of course here
http://corporatepresenter.blogspot.com
The jabberwock: From one comment from an ex-soldier on another website (I think it was BBC HYS), he was not allowed to serve with the UN contingent in Cyprus precisely because of his Greek Cypriot parentage
ReplyDeleteIsn't that analogous to the decision in PC Basha's case? The former soldier was assigned duties other than in Cyprus, not because anyone doubted his loyalty or anything like that, but because he might find himself in an invidious position because of his family connections.
And no one, clearly, had thought it a bad idea to recruit him in first place, in case he found himself posted to Cyprus. Or is anyone suggesting he shouldn't have been in the army at all?
Quite why people are making such a big issue of PC Basha's religion I don't understand. Presumably, he'd have found himself in similar difficulties had he been married to a Lebanese Christian.
As others have commented, there is much more to this than has been reported - ironically, today's Daily Mail sets out (perhaps not intentionally) the reasons as to why the decision to take him off duty outside the embassy was not so outrageous. The man was concerned about the possible risk to his family and the reasons seem not unreasonable. Good old DD - jumps on bandwagon.
ReplyDeleteI think David Davis is wrong. I have a job working with the police a lot, and every week some police officer might ask not to do something, for example, arrest a neighbour of someone he lives next to, arrest someone who has previously assaulted him, any number of issues. If s/he wishes to say he has a concern that seems in order to me, if they are ordered to do something, then they should do it. Frankly David Cameron might consider whether someone of David Davis's lightweight nature should be part of his change agenda.
ReplyDeleteReactionary Snob,
ReplyDeleteYou really speak a load of crap. I have Ulster Protestant relations in both the police and probation service and I can assure you they have done their duty DESPITE their personal feelings.
PC Basha was married by Omar Bakri Mohammed for pete's sake - what does that tell you?
Neil Craig, I evidently did not express myself clearly enough, because I agree with you that the authorities in the firefighters case were obnoxious. I see no reason why either they or this police officer should be expected to undertake acts which offended their consciences. I don't share their views, mind (how could I? I'm a gay man). I simply believe that consciences should be respected.
ReplyDeleteRichard Bailey -
ReplyDeleteSee my comment to Reactionary Snob.
He and his wife were married by Omar Bakri Mohammed - what does that tell you about his politics?
I respect the fact that you served in Northern Ireland but I have relations in the police force and prison service in Ulster and I can assure you they never shirked their responsibilities despite what they might have thought or said among themselves. They knew their families were at risk by dint of doing the job but they, unlike Basha, were courageous, and real men in my book. And their families were proud of them.
Do you think that Brian MCCargo was the only RC RUC officer who did his duty?
Really, I have never seen such a bunch of wimps and whingers. I have more balls than the wimp brigade.
This officer should not have been granted a dispensation. Moral grounds should not enter into policing or protection.
ReplyDeleteAs for the fear that his family may be at risk, that could apply to any officer serving at the moment.
This situation is getting out of control, Commissioner Blair last week backed a proposal calling for consultation with a panel of Muslim leaders before mounting counter-terrorist operations.
Will he also put together a panel from the families of gangsters and drug dealers to consult before raids against criminals?
Just heard on the radio about a Muslim gentleman who refused to take a blind lady and her guide-dog in his taxi. He claimed that it was aginst his religion to do so. He broke one of the Disability laws and was consequently fined.
ReplyDeleteShould we be more accommodating in our laws, or should people who reside here respect our governance and not a religion?
Richard bailey said
ReplyDelete"Lebanon, for whom he could demonstrate a clear and present danger from the deported cleric, Omar Bakri Mohammed."Could he , and couldn`t any Mulsim come up with a similiar story and if his views and profession are known what is the difference .
Has this cleric told him there is line he must not cross and this is acceptable
What you say looks convincing I must admit but there are still problems here . Clearly this man has no place in the plce force fo whatever reason
OLD MONG DRIP
ReplyDelete"...the inner feeling of British Muslims . My girlfriend lives in Birmingham and I do actually speak to quite a few Muslims"… oh lordy
Well perhaps you should listen to what they say instead of "projecting" your benetton advert fantasies on them. I am sorry to hear you are old and decrepit and relieved that by scouring the midlands your difficult research for understanding companionship became successful. Thank you also for the sustained parody of “new mania or should that be Mr. Nasty” I am a broken man and will change my life immiediatley
fruning graplecard - This is a spurious analogy. The firemen in Glasgow were not ordered, as part of their duty, to give out the leaflets at the Gay Pride parade. Fire Dept management had asked for VOLUNTEERS and no one volunteered. This embarrassed the management, who were busy currying favour with all the pc groups, and they disciplined the fire fighters for not volunteering. I think we probably have not heard the last of this case.
ReplyDeletefruning graplecard - I am in full accord with the other points you raise in your post, however!
ReplyDeleteDisappointing that Iain is being led by the tabloid press, in common with most media outlets, on this one. The religion of the officer was not the issue, his family connections to Lebanon were. Not unreasonable for somebody to request (not demand, or refuse to serve) a temporary transfer in the circumstances - lets at least have the discussion based on the facts, not tabloid sensationalism. Given the significant Christian Lebanese community around it could just as easily have been a Christian officer involved, but that wouldn't make as good a story.
ReplyDeleteNo Verity, when they didn't volunteer they were ordered & still refused.
ReplyDeleteThe principle is the same in both cases except that the fireman story is a very petty piece of PC bullying which I don't think is the case, by any party, in the guard story.
Anti-Frank I acknowlege that we have been on the same side all along here.