tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post9132123635758293843..comments2024-03-04T17:54:32.559+00:00Comments on Iain Dale's Diary: Cameron Outlines New European PolicyIain Dalehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03270146219458384372noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-12999077718744198212009-11-07T22:03:38.461+00:002009-11-07T22:03:38.461+00:00@ Paul Halsall: Negotiations after announcement o...@ Paul Halsall: <i> Negotiations after announcement of withdrawal are called for for two years</i><br /><br />'Announcement' of withdraw is not the same as 'right' of withdraw. <br /><br />Basically within the two year notice we could give, we lose our influence in the Council for that period, which gives the EU time to decide our terms and conditions <br /><br />The EU sets all the terms for withdraw, the UK cannot set it's own terms.<br /><br />It's most certainly not an 'easy' exit clause - and the self-amending clauses of the treaty can easily extend our 'withdraw notice' to however long it likes.TheBoilingFroghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00791961503315586243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-41710723402797907652009-11-07T12:12:07.601+00:002009-11-07T12:12:07.601+00:00@Boiling Frog.
You are misinformed. Unlike previo...@Boiling Frog.<br /><br />You are misinformed. Unlike previous treaties the Lisbon treaty has an easy exit clause. Negotiations after announcement of withdrawal are called for for two years; then the withdrawing state is simply not counted as a member *even if the negotiations* fail.Paul Halsallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01602075031268155220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-86717426526431675612009-11-07T11:20:13.178+00:002009-11-07T11:20:13.178+00:00@ Quietzapple The British Parliament can still cho...@ Quietzapple <i>The British Parliament can still choose to leave the EU.</i><br /><br />Not quite true, we can't <i>choose</i>, we have to negotiate with the other members states and have their unanimous agreement.<br /><br />If one state says no, we can't leaveTheBoilingFroghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00791961503315586243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-67275416885403756892009-11-07T01:20:42.683+00:002009-11-07T01:20:42.683+00:00as others here point out, the options Cameron have...as others here point out, the options Cameron have suggested shows a complete lack of understanding about the power the EU already has on our democratic rights as a nation, There is no way any of Cameron's proposed "blocks" will be possible to maintain, whilst we remain within the European Union.<br /><br />If he really wants these powers, he needs to work for complete withdrawal from the EU, no other path will work.philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15978252803556434764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-24116459658283215772009-11-06T09:46:13.745+00:002009-11-06T09:46:13.745+00:00@Jimmy
Gibberish is what Bliar and Gordo said when...@Jimmy<br />Gibberish is what Bliar and Gordo said when they were questioned about the Lisbon treaty being the Euro constitution, which Gisgard agrees it is. What about that Jimmy? Why did both your Labour leaders renaged on referendum?<br />Euro problem is not the major problem for Brits. Immigration and economy are. Labour is in trouble. Phil Wollas is a joker.<br />Boom and bust not fixed by Gordo.Care to talk about it?<br />Next you are happy to promote your banana boy as the 'weighty' EU Foreign Minister. Pathetic again.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-54104065966114161942009-11-05T13:34:21.868+00:002009-11-05T13:34:21.868+00:00Yes, many constitutional rules are written, but th...Yes, many constitutional rules are written, but that's not the same as having a written constitution as such. I'm against it - I don't see how it's compatible with Parliamentary sovereignty, at least not the model most written consitutioneers have in mind.Carl Gardner, Head of Legalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11623620299558039098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-35574492935043981642009-11-05T10:18:38.265+00:002009-11-05T10:18:38.265+00:00@ Carl Gardener
Surely we do have many writings w...@ Carl Gardener<br /><br />Surely we do have many writings which are at least part of our constitution?<br /><br />We have No Written Codified Constitution.<br /><br />To put it otherwise makes it sound to some as though we rely solely on the present prejudices of our politicians, judges etc.<br /><br />Jack Straw's proposal that we begin with a new Bill of Rights, which he expects to take years to prepare, will be a good first step to a Constitutional Code.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-91973981775076215432009-11-04T22:54:52.291+00:002009-11-04T22:54:52.291+00:00@Mr Eugenides, Nigel:
You both misunderstand the...@Mr Eugenides, Nigel: <br /><br />You both misunderstand the legal position. What Cameron is proposing in terms of a National Sovereignty Act (going on what he said, i.e. that he's trying to achieve parity with Germany under their written constitution) is compatible with Factortame and would not in any sense override or amend the ECA 1972.<br /><br />My problem with it is that it's meaningless: all it would do is restate the existing legal position. Ultimate sovereignty lies with Parliament and the UK courts now, which is why Parliament could have rejected the Lisbon Treaty, and why the courts have in the past ruled on legal claims that the government could not sign up to EU treaties, as in the Rees-Mogg case. Remember, too, that it was the House of Lords, not the ECJ, that suspended an Act of Parliament in Factortame. <br /><br />We are, now, in the same position as the Germans. It's just that our constitution isn't written. Extraordinary that a Tory leader should flirt with a partly written constitution in this way.Carl Gardner, Head of Legalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11623620299558039098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-37728856714306794712009-11-04T20:57:36.770+00:002009-11-04T20:57:36.770+00:00Oh dear. The Treaty is definitely self amending, s...Oh dear. The Treaty is definitely self amending, so this is not a helpful stance. Mind you, Mr Cameron thinks the Barnett Formula and West Lothian Question are fine, but he does promise to rule Scotland with "respect".<br /><br />That's nice for them.Drewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02476860681853867684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-35367875795459129592009-11-04T20:15:14.773+00:002009-11-04T20:15:14.773+00:00Five votes in our household, five votes that now b...Five votes in our household, five votes that now belong to UKIP. <br />Very disappointed with Dave.C.<br /><br />Word ver: thectimeKarenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02632656695253219982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-19052570871642645072009-11-04T19:44:42.113+00:002009-11-04T19:44:42.113+00:00The stuff about UK sovereignty having already been...The stuff about UK sovereignty having already been handed over in 1971 is baloney, not least (but not only) because The British Parliament can still choose to leave the EU.<br /><br />The EU, in the Lisbon Treaty, even enshrines this in the new treaty.<br /><br />If we were out EU laws would not apply in the UK.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-32032657713280759012009-11-04T19:42:10.501+00:002009-11-04T19:42:10.501+00:00Chameleon should say he will bring in a referendum...Chameleon should say he will bring in a referendum if he wins the next election because otherwise lots of charming people, aping Major's "Bastards" will make HMG impossible, as they did Major's.<br /><br />Either Chameleon doesn't believe he can win (quite likely, it is evident Heseltine expects a hung parliament) or his judgement is in line with his veracity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-36554888204406467672009-11-04T18:11:00.745+00:002009-11-04T18:11:00.745+00:00I have never voted Tory in my life.
This speech w...I have never voted Tory in my life.<br /><br />This speech will make me do so.<br /><br />What on earth are all these flat-earther wingnuts doing on an intelligent blog?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-34524578549356009422009-11-04T18:04:54.219+00:002009-11-04T18:04:54.219+00:00When politial blogger turns into cheerleader, you ...When politial blogger turns into cheerleader, you lose respectability.<br /><br />I've read online weeks ago, that the tory bloggers would be circling their wagons around this to protect Cameron.Mr. Musicologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09256668127348511450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-43501403606377578702009-11-04T18:03:57.677+00:002009-11-04T18:03:57.677+00:00Most of that statement, I'd say is frankly spe...Most of that statement, I'd say is frankly speculative.<br /><br />They aren't even "cast iron". Nearly all of it will rely on factors he has no control overMr. Musicologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09256668127348511450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-43812773951259094172009-11-04T17:32:22.385+00:002009-11-04T17:32:22.385+00:00Not good enough CallMeCastIronDave.
Any mention o...Not good enough CallMeCastIronDave.<br /><br />Any mention of negotiating the return of powers is bullshit.<br /><br />Not voting for you again - there'd be no pointGendeauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07235867123758395769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-35224354784771595482009-11-04T17:30:51.787+00:002009-11-04T17:30:51.787+00:00Since the Lisbon Treaty is meant to last for a lon...Since the Lisbon Treaty is meant to last for a long time (10-15 years), this is Cameron essentially giving up.<br /><br />Which I think is a good think.<br /><br />OTOH, the Lisbon Treaty does actually have an exit clause (unlike all the previous treaties), so Cameron could have called for an IN or OUT referendum.<br /><br />So he is clearly shafting the eurosceptics.Paul Halsallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01602075031268155220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-29509753294389247672009-11-04T17:28:05.296+00:002009-11-04T17:28:05.296+00:00"Giving the British people a policy on Europe..."Giving the British people a policy on Europe that they can actually believe in"<br />Is he going to be following UKIP's lead then?ukipwebmasterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12240335641832778726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-65828177516975006902009-11-04T17:22:58.186+00:002009-11-04T17:22:58.186+00:00This is not going to satisfy those who want to lea...This is not going to satisfy those who want to leave the EU - but it was never going to. Cameron dangled the possibility of an in/out referendum in the parliament after next but that was the best he could do. Now that the game is up on Lisbon there may be a few defections - but not I suspect among those with anything to lose. Cash, Carswell et al will likely not get back to Westminster if they join UKIP so they'll stay put. UKIP may cost the Tories a handful of seats - for example in LibDem marginals - but probably not enough to deny Cameron an overall majority if the Labour vote collapses in the way we expect. This is the calculation he is making. I expect everyone to fall in behind this (with varying degrees of enthusiasm) until the election. Then it will all kick off!Chris and Laurahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13546434673164522680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-75993512292130125162009-11-04T17:21:14.916+00:002009-11-04T17:21:14.916+00:00Shamik...Cameron covered that point extremely well...Shamik...Cameron covered that point extremely well. <br /><br />Can you imagine anyone voting for a party that proposed such a thing?<br /><br />Indeed, each party would more than likely agree to the law.<br /><br />I thought, under the circumstances he (Cameron) did well. He reminded people who betrayed the Country over this treaty (Blair and Brown aided and abetted by the Lib Dems)! and I believe the 'lock' is very innovative and will be greatly welcomed by the people.<br /><br />Let us all remember that the EU is way down the order in the public perception.strapworldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18228784526399929300noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-15479126487739175352009-11-04T17:19:58.934+00:002009-11-04T17:19:58.934+00:00Can someone answer me this question (it's not ...Can someone answer me this question (it's not a rhetorical one either!):<br />Since our Prime Mentalist had already signed us up to the EU constitution ande it has been ratified by parliament could DC have held a referendum anyway? Was he going to remove our signature?<br /><br />If he could do it then, why can't he do it now?Rebel Sainthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17932686715016006056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-6678892014053493712009-11-04T17:19:32.632+00:002009-11-04T17:19:32.632+00:00Impressed by the speech - enough to keep me out of...Impressed by the speech - enough to keep me out of the hands of UKIP (and I was floating in that direction, believe me).<br /><br />Fail to deliver though, Dave, and you can kiss your second term goodbye.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-69714654553283726752009-11-04T17:18:39.878+00:002009-11-04T17:18:39.878+00:00Mr Eugenides,
>>... Lord Bridge remarked th...Mr Eugenides,<br /><br />>>... Lord Bridge remarked that such comments were 'based on a misconception', and that under the European Communities Act 1972, the law regulating the UK's membership of the EU, it had 'always been clear that it was the duty of a United Kingdom court when delivering final judgment, to override any rule of national law found to be in conflict with any directly enforceable rule of Community law.'...<<<br /><br />But the legislation Cameron is proposing would override that aspect of the European Communities Act.<br /><br />Shamik,<br /><br />>>Care to explain what happens if a future Government brings in legislation to unpick the lock?<<<br /><br />As Parliament cannot bind its successors, a future Government could do so. But in so doing it would be have to legislate to explicitly remove the right to a referendum.<br />That is certainly a higher hurdle than we have now, even if it doesn't satisfy you.Nigelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18171835878570773595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-31642269865332113662009-11-04T17:13:43.757+00:002009-11-04T17:13:43.757+00:00When are senior MP's going to really show they...When are senior MP's going to really show they understand how the public expect them to lead. Today, Cameron, in one single announcement has sadly given a real boost to UKIP and lost the trust of a lot of supporters.Stuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02096477489187920421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-27030752921088976762009-11-04T17:12:09.765+00:002009-11-04T17:12:09.765+00:00Come on everyone. This is a tory blog. Surely so...Come on everyone. This is a tory blog. Surely someone here is going to defend this gibberish.<br /><br />No? <br /><br /><br />Oh dear.Jimmyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01542633492362670045noreply@blogger.com