tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post900150050114871877..comments2024-03-04T17:54:32.559+00:00Comments on Iain Dale's Diary: Sir Ming Makes His First Big MistakeIain Dalehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03270146219458384372noreply@blogger.comBlogger57125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-28200776527305748182007-03-01T16:43:00.000+00:002007-03-01T16:43:00.000+00:00loony left in Lioverpool and elsewhere.you may hav...loony left in Lioverpool <BR/><BR/>and elsewhere.<BR/><BR/>you may have a point thereNewmaniahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11922161971821380803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-9157573256147120052007-03-01T15:21:00.000+00:002007-03-01T15:21:00.000+00:00My point is quite simple. Mrs Thatcher centralised...My point is quite simple. Mrs Thatcher centralised the Business Rate in the 1980s to prevent the loony left in Lioverpool forcing business out and ending up in a council going bust.. (with the majority on voters on the dole/benefits there was little motivation on voters to vote sensibly).<BR/><BR/>I think that was wrong. Local councils should be allowed to do what they like, and go bust and NOT be bailed out by Central Government.<BR/><BR/>A few lessons like that would end voter apathy...and encourage the others into fiscal repsonsibility...Madasafishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06109237198481955714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-80180933117838720502007-03-01T13:29:00.000+00:002007-03-01T13:29:00.000+00:00Ming Campbell as leader of the Fib Dims is a mista...Ming Campbell as leader of the Fib Dims is a mistake!Sir-C4'https://www.blogger.com/profile/03917709983378003032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-80971746441809289032007-03-01T11:54:00.000+00:002007-03-01T11:54:00.000+00:00Madasafish-The Home Secretary has been forced to d...Madasafish<BR/><BR/>-The Home Secretary has been forced to drop plans for local Police Forced merging due largely to the opposition of David Cameron and widespread local objection<BR/><BR/>The Conservative Party are floating the local Sherrif idea and I think it is likely that we may see that as Policy. I have a say in the party and through my vote <BR/><BR/>So that was a bad example of our supposed powerlessness, and on the day Blair decided that Road pricing is electoral suicide! This how the two Party system works , you can chuck one of them out . With PR you cannot <BR/><BR/>The NHS is not a local policy, it is paid for by the tax payer which has every right to expect some accountability nationally via government.This is dummest sort of localism . Oh goodness local people are protesting that they want more free services. AMAZING!<BR/><BR/><BR/>Transport is not really a local issue is it ? But you are right there us no transport policy in this country. It is on transport that the Labour Party are suffering as badly as on anything and this will contribute to the end of their reign of misrule.<BR/>You cannot tackle transport without an overhaul of the way the treasury counts money and this is a big job. I am certainly trying to get my views across with a view to informing Conservative Policy which is , admittedly , vague on this area at the moment . It has to be because it is part of the taxation debate on which "We " are saying nothing .This is in effectsaying "Lower" but not that mnuch lower.<BR/><BR/>You see how subtle it all is . BUT evryone understands the rules and this is what you would lose with PR .<BR/>LOCAL GOVT.<BR/>Come and live in Islignton and see the pretty gratitude that the foul bitch Enva Hodge was not allowed to start her own Soviet State by Margaret thatcher. Liberals always believe local is bestbecause its their only game . It is not when the majority are collecting benefits and can hold the minority to ransom.<BR/><BR/>Mrs Thatcher was quite right but there is a case now for some returning of power to Coucils ther first thing to do is to lose the Prescott white Elephant regional assemblies and with ken Fucking Livingtsone in it I could do with out the GLA personally. <BR/><BR/>Apathy is from philosophical closeness and the development of a disengaged poltical class. the fact we no longer run our own country also contributes. With PR far far fewer votes would count and the myriad of other ways you can have an effect would be closed.<BR/><BR/>Re-engagement comes from ditching Europe and opening politics to the working population. That would never never happen under PR and it isnt easy now .<BR/><BR/><BR/>I feel there may be a case for local PR where far to many Coucils are entirely dominated by coteries of "activists" dues to the low turn out and endemic cronyism of the rotten local scene. Many of the obvious national objections do not apply and this would be a reasonable thing for the Libs to ask for .<BR/><BR/>They are not reasonable though.<BR/><BR/>Neil Craig you are talking bollocks but I have to get back to work .Rest assurred though , I am thinking contemptuous thoughts!Newmaniahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11922161971821380803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-24572636129905270962007-03-01T11:31:00.000+00:002007-03-01T11:31:00.000+00:00"P R produces the worst democratic results achieva..."P R produces the worst democratic results achievable - instability, extremism, compromise, distancing of political choice from the electorate, and lack of representation of those who fail to have their candidates elected, plus mandated MPs answering to their groupings rather than directly to the electorate. First past the post has none of these draw backs"<BR/><BR/>I think FTPT is considerably more vilnerable - lets go through them:<BR/><BR/>Instability - in the 80s the options were either a privatising Thatcher or a "nationalise the commanding heights" Labour,<BR/><BR/>extremism - see above<BR/><BR/>compromise - politics is the art by which we live together through compromise, this is a much better thomg than a particular minority being able to ride roughshod over everybody else as happens under FTPT<BR/><BR/>distancing of choice - quite the reverse, everybody gets to have their choice without being effectively disenfranchised if they don't like either of the big 2<BR/><BR/>"lack of representation of those who fail to get their candidates elected" - seriously? Currently the substantial majority of votes go to candidates who don't get elected, under PR very few do.<BR/><BR/>MPs answering to groups rather than the electorate - in a "safe" constituency, ie most of them. now the candidates greatest hurdle is getting selected or not deselected by their constituency committee which often, in all parties, have some rather strange hobbyhorses. While there is some problem with those versions of list system that don't allow the electorate to make individual selections from the list, under PR the overwhelming priority is to persuade as many as possible of the electors to vote for you, which is how it should be.neil craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09157898238945726349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-16039954719984556082007-03-01T08:43:00.000+00:002007-03-01T08:43:00.000+00:00>Newmania"I have a horrible feeling that we may ne...>Newmania<BR/>"I have a horrible feeling that we may need to defend oursleves against the threat of PR and the end of accountable government and you are not helping"<BR/><BR/>I'm sorry but are you suggesting that the current system of government makes it accountable?<BR/>If so please explain to me how under both Conservative and Labour Governments the electorate has absolutely ZERO input into:<BR/>-the control of policing<BR/>-NHS policy as it affects their local facilities<BR/>- local transport policy.<BR/><BR/>You (deliberately ?) misunderstand my points.<BR/>Westminster government is all centralised. That suits both parties (Mrs Thatcher effectively abolished Local Council's taxtation powers).<BR/><BR/>It does NOT give the electorate any stake in local decisions.<BR/>Hence the apathy and fall in voter numbers.Madasafishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06109237198481955714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-3109628383465198212007-03-01T00:10:00.000+00:002007-03-01T00:10:00.000+00:00I suppose this means I am not a conservative. Anot...I suppose this means I am not a conservative. <BR/><BR/><BR/>Another Fop possibly ?<BR/><BR/>It is aproblem that PR would make even worse. David Cameron`s failed atempt to use the A list and the Mayoral elections to open the system up show what an intractable difficulty the proffessional European style poltico is.<BR/><BR/>That is why , more than ever we need transparency and the ability to vote against Party knowing what our vote will do.<BR/><BR/>IMHO<BR/><BR/>( Anon)Newmaniahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11922161971821380803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-12178997543698827592007-03-01T00:09:00.000+00:002007-03-01T00:09:00.000+00:00I suppose this means I am not a conservative. Anot...I suppose this means I am not a conservative. <BR/><BR/><BR/>Another Fop possibly ?<BR/><BR/>It is aproblem that PR would make even worse. David Cameron`s failed atempt to use the A list and the Mayoral elections to open the system up show what an intractable difficulty the proffessional European style poltico is.<BR/><BR/>That is why , more than ever we need transparency and the ability to vote against Party knowing what our vote will do.<BR/><BR/>IMHO<BR/><BR/>( Anon)Newmaniahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11922161971821380803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-36305971853002378932007-02-28T23:49:00.000+00:002007-02-28T23:49:00.000+00:00Hi Newmania,I'm an Englishman, and I don't feel I ...Hi Newmania,<BR/><BR/>I'm an Englishman, and I don't feel I have had much opportunity to set the course for my country through the existing electoral system. In my lifetime the course has been set by a small coterie of professional politicos backed by frequently unaccountable vested interest groups.<BR/><BR/>I think we could do much better than the existing system. I suppose this means I am not a conservative.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-24909736570943091542007-02-28T23:16:00.000+00:002007-02-28T23:16:00.000+00:00Madfish - I just browsed your silly posts includin...Madfish - I just browsed your silly posts including your pointless excursion to Italy. Why ? Did you have an nice holiday there ? How interesting .<BR/><BR/>1-The fact is - whether the Conservatives like it or not - the Lib Dems were 100% correct on Iraq .<BR/>The Libs are pacifists and are against war . They got lucky this time but that is right only in the sense a stopped clock is right twice a day. The rest of what you say here is a non sequitur to out it kindly so I shall call it crap!<BR/>Being “More principled than the Lib Dums is faint praise but the Conservative party are showing principle by adopting a nationally acceptable stance across a range of issues. The LibDums operate chiefly locally where they say whatever happens to suit them . That is the difference.<BR/>And no matter however you argue, there is a VALID case for PR<BR/><BR/>No<BR/>.”. especially in the days when Scotland was over-represented -”<BR/>Irrelevant and it has not been sorted by the electoral commission by a long shot <BR/>“No matter how more appealing Mr Cameron may be on TV and how incompetent Labour appear, in Parliament the Conservatives are virtually invisible to me as a voter and they appear reactive…”<BR/>You appear to be an irrelevant minority and so once again you are saying nothing <BR/><BR/>“ looks like a cosy cartel…”<BR/><BR/>For reasons of access to the political process which would far far worse under PR and possibly because you choose to take no part.<BR/><BR/>“My view is we need more diversity of opinions in Parliament.. not two big party machines whipping into line“<BR/><BR/>“No because that would take Policy a further remove from the voter and would render the view of the electorate irrelevant.”<BR/><BR/>The result of the current system is absolute power for the Government .. and as Labour have shown changing the Constitution .<BR/><BR/>The power of government is limited when we can see what they are doing look at Iraq and the Poll tax. They would be delighted to add layer opinion layer of PR chosen committee so the entire process could be kept opaque. It would be the end of representation and the final accomplishment of fake Consultation followed by the rule of a Bureaucracy. The two Party system works by the immensely complex and inter connection between the Parties and the electorate. If we could just go back to deciding what we are doing in a visible Parliament that actually ruled the country in this manner we would once again be the envy of the world.<BR/><BR/>You madasfish sound like a the worst sort of armchair twiddler who , lacking any real interest, only makes mischief , with a view to showing off ,what I assume you think ,is your fine plumage<BR/>I have a horrible feeling that we may need to defend oursleves against the threat of PR and the end of accountable government and you are not helping.<BR/><BR/>Decadent FopNewmaniahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11922161971821380803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-44519741487932716562007-02-28T22:46:00.000+00:002007-02-28T22:46:00.000+00:00Well said HG on PR. The question at the heart of a...Well said HG on PR. The question at the heart of a working democracy is not which of the smorgasbord of delicacies do I vote for alone . It is equally which do I vote to vote for to keep that lot out. BY this complex process we arrive at a national government that is accountable not only to a small coterie of professional politicos . PR would be disaster and when you combine it with the existing ceding of sovereignty it would mark the end of an Englishman’s right to set the course for his own countryNewmaniahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11922161971821380803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-82551882259537350962007-02-28T22:40:00.000+00:002007-02-28T22:40:00.000+00:00MadafishIf I understand what you are saying correc...Madafish<BR/>If I understand what you are saying correctly I agree with you.<BR/><BR/>Thats exactly why we need a Conservative government because they listen more then socialists. They dont listen much but they do listen, they have to.<BR/><BR/>Socialism is a dogma. Conservatism is a reactionary representation of the will of the common man. It has to listen otherwise it could never get elected or stay in power for long if it did not.<BR/><BR/>I expect that this site will be just as buzy when DCs in power as now. I certainly hope it will be anyway. <BR/><BR/>I am looking forward to bending Tory ears because at least their's will not have Starlinist Marxist fingers stuck in them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-51309253114981959612007-02-28T22:35:00.000+00:002007-02-28T22:35:00.000+00:00Yes a very big mistake and very welcome. Disillusi...Yes a very big mistake and very welcome. Disillusioned Labour voters are much more likely to go the whole hog and vote Tory if they think that by voting for the Libdems they are simply letting Brown in again.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06810788783886456639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-10935591583293685082007-02-28T21:14:00.000+00:002007-02-28T21:14:00.000+00:00Anon.8.09 You may have been misled by madasafish'...Anon.8.09 You may have been misled by madasafish's representations of my understanding of UK politics and Italian military capacity. Madasafish could not have been better chosen as a nom de plume. <BR/><BR/>P R produces the worst democratic results achievable - instability, extremism, compromise, distancing of political choice from the electorate, and lack of representation of those who fail to have their candidates elected, plus mandated MPs answering to their groupings rather than directly to the electorate. First past the post has none of these draw backs. Whipping keeps some discipline in the House but we are all still out there, at the weekends, in our constituencies waiting to make our views felt to our most representative members of parliament.<BR/><BR/>Madasafish's statements about the Italian forces are at best wrong, and display a nasty attitude.<BR/><BR/> This last can be said of you and your understanding of Italy and its history.<BR/><BR/>Why you address your comments to me about Germany during the nazi period I cannot imagine, but I fear that Germany is being treated to the same garbage-style interpretations you apply to Italy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-86594686680183500812007-02-28T20:09:00.000+00:002007-02-28T20:09:00.000+00:00HgOnly surpassed by you knowledge of history. The ...Hg<BR/><BR/>Only surpassed by you knowledge of history. The Italian state, if you can call it that even now, is a relatively new state. PR is like socialism, plausible in theory but impossible to implement. Under FPP voters are encouraged to make a decision, PR allows support for 'notions' not government. If the UK had PR we would have 10 elections in 10 years until an extreme view prevailed, a majority government under PR, that would govern for a multiple of the term of the usual coalition could be very dangerous. <BR/><BR/>Didnt the National Socialists benefit from a PR system that gave extremists electoral credibility way beyond their support? UKIP will get no seats in FPP but would get 5%+ under PR. Its an easy decison to vote for no hopers under PR.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-4288212687106318992007-02-28T20:06:00.000+00:002007-02-28T20:06:00.000+00:00Personally I think you are all fighting - like gen...Personally I think you are all fighting - like generals - the last war.<BR/>:-)<BR/><BR/>It makes not one whit of difference how we elect our politicians : it's what we do when we elect them.<BR/><BR/>Now in the pre electronic age, communications - or their lack - meant that the election system was so cumbersome, that it happened every 5 years and then the Government did essentially what it liked.. and Government was essentially local for all key services as centralisation was impossible due to the lack of communications.<BR/><BR/>Then communications enabled transport of news and ideas and we eneded up with centralise dgovernment.<BR/><BR/>Now we have the internet and we have the means of controlling everything locally with local voter participation..<BR/><BR/>and we have: centralised government.<BR/><BR/>Here we are on a blog debating this. Not with an MP or a Minister but with each other.<BR/><BR/>It's pathetic that Government and MPs are continuing the old pre 1900s style of government (brought in with the telex and telegraph) and we are arguing about how we vote under this system.<BR/><BR/>We should not be debating this.. but how we change politics to make it more relevant at a local level...<BR/><BR/>And PS I am not a great supporter of PR (and certainly not of the Libdims ) but as a voter I object when supporters of one party try to dish the dirt on the others and fail to recognise their own mistooks.<BR/><BR/><BR/>PR is not the issue for the 2020s : how to devolve pwers from central government to local and reverse voter apathyis.<BR/><BR/>fail to do that and the old syle political parties will continue to drift away from voters' attentions...Madasafishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06109237198481955714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-28572229957691258932007-02-28T18:56:00.000+00:002007-02-28T18:56:00.000+00:00Anonymous (7:26 AM):I believe in the one poll that...Anonymous (7:26 AM):<BR/><BR/>I believe in the one poll that really matters - the general election. I know the political/media elites collapsed under the weight of their own spin and cynicism years ago, but I'm still naive enough to believe policy is more important than polls, and substance (or the lack of it) more important than spinning polls that, in the end, is just the high-tech equivalent of getting a witch doctor to throw chicken entrails at a wall and 'read' the blood stains left behind.Craig Ranapiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08923246310584658857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-28368962493518964642007-02-28T18:47:00.000+00:002007-02-28T18:47:00.000+00:00I agree with Giovanni - the problem with PR is tha...I agree with Giovanni - the problem with PR is that it results in a Government pursuing a balance of policies that no one voted for. Since Madasafish dislikes Italy as a point of comparison, he/she may wish to consider Germany, which is currently governed by a grand coalition, the elements of which were voted for by voters who on the one hand wanted to kick out the bums (the bums remain in office) and on the other hand voted in order to keep out the right (the right now share power). It follows policies that are miles from both parties' manifestos.<BR/><BR/>No German Government was voted out of office between 1969 and 1998 - Governments changed when junior coalition partners received better offers from rivals. In what way is that a superior democratic process?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-46261641831245016122007-02-28T18:34:00.000+00:002007-02-28T18:34:00.000+00:00Why is everyone so easy on the cruddy spineless Li...Why is everyone so easy on the cruddy spineless Liberals here. The truth with that repellent collection of liars and bleeding heart showboaters is that they don1t know what they believe but as they want to ,“Do something”, about everything in effect they are socialists. There has never the slightest chance of a Liberal Alliance with the Conservative party and those who suggest there could be do not spend any time with Conservatives.. quite apart from Liberals , who detest the Conservative Party, as much as they detest the Country, and the English in particular<BR/><BR/><BR/>That pointless scum ,are the Labour Party plus Conceit, and that is all.<BR/>I am also staggered at the equanimity with which folk regard the end of our Constitution.The end of the and MP actually having to be voted for by a Constituency and the beginning of PR. The problem is the Scottish question. While Broon hates PR he will be happy to stop any government being formed before he sees the end of the labour Party in England. I believe he is capable of delibertely frustrating the wishes of the English for a Conservative and independent government at arms length from Europe by this foul vandalism to centuries of democracy.<BR/><BR/>If he does ,the fight goes to the Streets ,as far as I am concerned . I, for one, will not be taking that lying down and I hope that there will be many with me. The Liberal Party are the Judas in all this the traitors ,the worst that there can be .Newmaniahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11922161971821380803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-55241390980916536482007-02-28T18:23:00.000+00:002007-02-28T18:23:00.000+00:00Madasafish, Yes, I like reading, I'll take your ad...Madasafish, Yes, I like reading, I'll take your advice and get back to it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-65386408285129860212007-02-28T18:07:00.000+00:002007-02-28T18:07:00.000+00:00>hgIf your ignorance on UK politics is as large as...>hg<BR/>If your ignorance on UK politics is as large as your apparent ignorance of Italy's finances...<BR/>(record deficits, public debt out of control, deteriorating productivity, balance of Payments problems ..<BR/>and military record ( not in any military role in Afghanistan or Iraq, long history of military reverses )<BR/><BR/>then frankly I suggest you should perhaps do some reading...:-)))Madasafishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06109237198481955714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-66414716675748872912007-02-28T18:02:00.000+00:002007-02-28T18:02:00.000+00:00Has he opened up Pandoras box or simply put it in ...Has he opened up Pandoras box or simply put it in a box. If he is asked the question now, he has a get out, that being that it is something the aprty are examining but has no policy on at present.Nich Starlinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04237390959601973501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-43363540406030013392007-02-28T17:46:00.000+00:002007-02-28T17:46:00.000+00:00Madasafish. Whatever have you against Italy's ec...Madasafish. Whatever have you against Italy's economy (or military record for that matter)?<BR/><BR/>An imperial power as old as is theirs has long given up caring as long as they are rich and safe in the present and medium term; and they are.<BR/><BR/>PR is about to be dealt with as threatening that status.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-58474429588637112262007-02-28T17:21:00.000+00:002007-02-28T17:21:00.000+00:00I don't think the LD's policy over the war can ser...I don't think the LD's policy over the war can seriously be called indecisive or unprincipled & certainly not by a Tory.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand it was quite clearly Charlie's policy not Mings.<BR/><BR/>Nor do I think Tories who, at least in the past, have been massive net gainers from FTPT, can properly accuse the LDs of advocating self interest.<BR/><BR/>Ed while i take your point about the 2nd party becoming the government because smaller parties approve, as may well happen in Scotland, this can only happen if both parties have quite a bit in common (despite remarks about a Lab/Con coalition to beat the LDs this is unlikely). For example in Scotland the SNP may deal themselves out by insiting that every potential partner support an independence referendum. If politics is the art of getting on with others, as I think it is, then there is nothing wrong with coalition. Indeed this is surely what "big tent" Tories believe.<BR/><BR/>The real killer however is that under PR the government actually represents the majority of people & under FTPT it almost always doesn't. It is no wonder people are cynical about politics.neil craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09157898238945726349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-4969662284372355812007-02-28T17:16:00.000+00:002007-02-28T17:16:00.000+00:00>hgItaly has three governments: the official one a...>hg<BR/>Italy has three governments: the official one and the Mafia and the Vatican. They appear to all overlap.<BR/><BR/>It's a bad example for anything political and to take Italy as an example for anything (look at their economy, their military record for example...)<BR/><BR/>IF PR is so bad , why employ it in N Ireland?Madasafishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06109237198481955714noreply@blogger.com