tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post8873834775155665140..comments2024-03-04T17:54:32.559+00:00Comments on Iain Dale's Diary: Horrfying Figures on Cocaine UseIain Dalehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03270146219458384372noreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-70870542681672487222009-07-28T16:32:31.292+01:002009-07-28T16:32:31.292+01:00Iain,
"I cannot think that any UK political ...Iain, <br />"I cannot think that any UK political party would ever adopt such a policy"<br /><br />1 The old liberal party already does<br />2 Ever is a very long time. It reminds me of Gordon Brown's declaration that "Drugs will never be decriminalised" as if that is in his gift.<br /><br />My guess is that a number of political parties will begin to call for an end to the ultimate securitisation - the war on drugs - within the next few years. It is too expensive on virtually every indicator you care to mention.<br /><br />We at Transform think we could put ourselves out of business, by helping to bring about legal markets by 2020.<br /><br />It'd help if we began to assume that political parties should support legal markets, rather than assuming that they won't.Danny Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10139449664223847222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-10099606992317685072009-07-28T14:31:20.598+01:002009-07-28T14:31:20.598+01:00Khat, a drug used by the Somali community, is lega...Khat, a drug used by the Somali community, is legal in the UK, but illegal in most other countries, including Somalia. We don't here much about it here, yet in America is is involved in organised crime. Isn't this living proof that legalisation can work and be beneficial?<br />Fifteen years ago two officers in the Manchester Drug squad told me that all drugs should be legalised. They said the petty crime would disappear and the gangsters would move into armed robbery, with which they could deal with more easily.<br />Could it be that the smoking ban in pubs and and clubs is causing more young people to use less visible stimulants? I've never tried cocaine, but can imagine that during a long meeting, train or plane journey, it might take my mind off cigarettes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-24963749306999117102009-07-28T03:33:33.280+01:002009-07-28T03:33:33.280+01:00I may be very naive...
You are very naive.
I nev...<i>I may be very naive...</i><br /><br />You are very naive.<br /><br />I never touch the stuff myself: It only ever gives me a runny nose.Frank Davishttp://frank-davis.livejournal.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-51148743369079757312009-07-25T18:18:22.801+01:002009-07-25T18:18:22.801+01:00There really should be no debate on this issue.
I...There really should be no debate on this issue.<br /><br /><a href="http://idlepenpusher.blogspot.com/2009/04/maryon-stewart-gbl-self-ownership.html" rel="nofollow">I own my body.</a> Not you or anyone else. I don't care how many others vote on what they may or may not permit me to put into it. They have no legitimacy. I own me. They cannot outvote me. Any anti-drugs law is fundamentally immoral and illegitimate.<br /><br />And, as it happens, bound to <a href="http://idlepenpusher.blogspot.com/2009/03/economist-and-drugs-prohibition.html" rel="nofollow">make things worse</a> anyway.Idle Pen Pusherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08319222131717187999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-82416712021676368762009-07-25T12:42:29.217+01:002009-07-25T12:42:29.217+01:00Iain,
You may be interested in my (evidence-based...Iain,<br /><br />You may be interested in <a href="http://devilskitchen.me.uk/2009/07/drugs-and-decriminalisation.html" rel="nofollow">my (evidence-based) response to this post</a>...<br /><br />DKDevil's Kitchenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13832949569501846730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-739575253511200462009-07-25T00:29:09.046+01:002009-07-25T00:29:09.046+01:00Sorry Iain, too stoned to comment either way. I...Sorry Iain, too stoned to comment either way. I'll try again in the morning.....Robin B'stard MPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00132183109126567795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-48236993146741029312009-07-24T20:40:02.418+01:002009-07-24T20:40:02.418+01:00Sorry, my last paragraph was a bit tart- but I sti...Sorry, my last paragraph was a bit tart- but I still believe that there is better evidence that drugs can be legalised without problems, than there was two generations ago that homosexuality could be accepted without detriment to society. And I should point out that three generations ago no political party would consider accepting homosexuals, at least not openly.Patnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-3272232853528361892009-07-24T20:22:30.543+01:002009-07-24T20:22:30.543+01:00'Whatever the merits of that argument I cannot...'Whatever the merits of that argument I cannot think that any UK political party would ever adopt such a policy.' Sums your attitude up Iain: politics is an end in itself.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-60951611518778770912009-07-24T19:32:06.827+01:002009-07-24T19:32:06.827+01:00People should be concerned about the wider consequ...People should be concerned about the wider consequences of personal cocaine use.<br /><br />However, to suggest that the taking of "all drugs, all drugs, not just class A substances" results in "disastrous consequences" is nonsense. Class A substances include MDMA, which is artificially synthesised and needn't involve organised violent crime, is not physically addictive, and is quite safe to take compared to cocaine, heroin, speed, LSD and many legal medicines, as long as one isn't driving or doing anything else one oughtn't do while inebriated, for the safety of others.<br /><br />Also, consider someone growing marijuana at home for personal use. With moderate, sensible use the most disastrous consequences they face is prosecution under stupid laws that should be reformed. That, and possibly lung cancer, but if that's what they're aiming for they could do it much more efficiently with legal cigarettes.rentednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-91339624808886721212009-07-24T19:14:15.143+01:002009-07-24T19:14:15.143+01:00Well its obvious that whatever the effects of the ...Well its obvious that whatever the effects of the current drug laws, they have negligible effect on their availability and use. I guess that most non takers like me are non takers by choice. Clearly if we intend to eliminate drugs we need very intrusive policing, and the actual imposition of draconian penalties. I wonder how many people really think its sensible to lock people up longer for smoking a funny cigarette than for breaking someones legs? And that definitely includes the offspring of home secretaries. Or are we to re-introduce hanging drawing and quartering to restore the proportion? Not to mention the endless searches required for detection. And all this will cost many times the 9 or 10 billion we spend every year now- can we really afford that?<br />As others have commented the outlawing of drugs is a recent phenomenon- how did the human race survive before 1971?<br />Of course some may believe that criminals are far more trustworthy than any government approved body- hence the spending of £9 Bn pa to ensure only criminals can supply drugs. I'm old fashioned enough to believe that pharmacies would deliver a far more reliable product, and that it would be cheaper even including a tax than the current system. Plus of course overseas suppliers would have to go straight- the Taliban's smuggling skills would be redundant for example.<br />Finally may I remind everyone that it is only a couple of generations since homosexuality was an imprisonable offense. The prudes were wrong on that, really because they feared change. We have the example of all history, plus that of Portugal todqay, to show that legalisation works.Patnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-83263198966150453902009-07-24T17:58:14.772+01:002009-07-24T17:58:14.772+01:00Anonymous at 4:44, again this goes to the criminal...Anonymous at 4:44, again this goes to the criminality issue. With legalisation the dependance on lawless south american cartels is diminished. The crop can be grown elsewhere and with the threat of illegality removed, so would the lawlessness of those nations. Don't forget how prohibition led to the vast expansion of the mafia in America. It is the same with drugs. By making them illegal you are funding a giant black economy and various criminal networks. I don't expect this to happen straight away but if the Portugese policy continues to prove successful then hopefully politicians here will take note.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10904181998734097782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-23330229128706934482009-07-24T16:44:01.430+01:002009-07-24T16:44:01.430+01:00It's troubling that, throughout this thread, c...It's troubling that, throughout this thread, commenters are larging glossing over the concrete problems in Latin America caused by drug trafficking and concentrating on issues of personal health.<br /><br />Is this because drug users are too selfish to consider how their criminality affects other people or is it because none of them want to face up to the fact that they are funding war, terror and mass murder in a dozen countries in the western hemisphere?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-19952583153306738632009-07-24T16:00:19.686+01:002009-07-24T16:00:19.686+01:00"All government can do is try to limit supply...<i>"All government can do is try to limit supply and educate people about the disastrous consequences of taking all drugs, not just class A substances."</i><br /><br /><br />So government should educate with lies? "the disastrous consequences of taking all drugs" - eh? Talk about a wide sweeping (and factually bereft) statement.rentednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-73087398185309212592009-07-24T15:06:41.146+01:002009-07-24T15:06:41.146+01:00In case anyone wishes to read it, here is my piece...In case anyone wishes to read it, <a href="http://www.mattwardman.com/blog/2009/07/24/what-can-portugals-decriminalisation-experience-teach-us/" rel="nofollow">here is my piece on Portugal's decrminialisation experiment</a> which I referred to earlier. It has been published on The Wardman Wire this afternoon.Mark Thompsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00744387583593537268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-7211945017698605522009-07-24T14:41:31.542+01:002009-07-24T14:41:31.542+01:00Sceptical Steve said...
"Surely this single r...Sceptical Steve said...<br />"Surely this single rambling sentence strongly suggests substance abuse?"<br /><br />No evidence that Iain was on drugs. He just couldn't be bothered to put in the necessary punctuation.Carlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-54328084942017522042009-07-24T14:02:15.780+01:002009-07-24T14:02:15.780+01:00Portugal decriminalised drugs and it's been a ...Portugal decriminalised drugs and it's been a stomping success.<br /><br />I agree that no British political party would ever be bold enough to legalise drugs though, just as we'll never sort out prisons and all sorts of other problems - the British mentality is too prohibitive against good ideas. We like to spite ourselves.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-21745699195501206252009-07-24T13:44:27.585+01:002009-07-24T13:44:27.585+01:00Mark M - You make an interesting point (although o...Mark M - You make an interesting point (although one which I have some trouble with personally), but your argument would require a much more mature debate in this country about drugs before nuance like that could be properly considered.<br /><br />A better argument is that even if consumption went up under a decriminialised and regulated system (and bear in mind that the evidence suggests this is nowhere near a given anyway) the harm caused would certainly fall. That is another thing that is proved by Portugal's experiment. Illness and disease (and overdoses) associated with drug use all fell sharply because the users can be honest and open about what they are doing and can seek help properly without fear of being arrested and/or punished.Mark Thompsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00744387583593537268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-75923809827331263772009-07-24T13:23:45.820+01:002009-07-24T13:23:45.820+01:00As a non smoking, non drinking, non drug taking pe...As a non smoking, non drinking, non drug taking person, I resent my taxes being spent on the consequences of illegal drug use - crime, prisons, anti drug campaigns, rehabilitation, NHS dealing with over doses etc etc. Why should I have to pay for the problems caused by others? Legalise the lot, and tax them to the hilt. Use the revenue to pay for the costs to society.sobersnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-61465362920546830242009-07-24T13:18:30.223+01:002009-07-24T13:18:30.223+01:00The government claim that the "wholesale pric...The government claim that the "wholesale price of cocaine" had been driven up by government success in catching smugglers was utter nonsense.<br /><br />The price went up because of the weak pound. Duh.<br /><br /><br />You should run this survey specifically for BBC staff. Bet their 'fair trade' ethics go straight out the window...<br /><br />Me? Nothing, not even alcohol. <br /><br />I wouldn't stop anyone else, though, so I'd be in favour if legalisation. It would reduce the collateral damage.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-2604622568587578992009-07-24T13:17:06.144+01:002009-07-24T13:17:06.144+01:00I don't agree that we can't win the war on...I don't agree that we can't win the war on drugs. <br /><br />Britain can have as many drugs as its prepared to put up with on its streets. Massive investment in anti-drugs policing, more searches at ports and airports, and extremely strict exemplary sentences for drugs offences (automatic custodial sentence for possession of any illegal drug, life without parole for smuggling drugs into the country or into prison, extended sentences for crimes committed to fund drug habits etc) could all help.<br /><br />Ridding this country of drugs is one of the main reasons I want to go into politics, and if I ever get near top it'll be top of my list!Me vs Maradona vs Elvishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15168821199391316159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-54506523924335372192009-07-24T12:45:56.608+01:002009-07-24T12:45:56.608+01:00Mark Reckons
While I don't dispute the figure...Mark Reckons<br /><br />While I don't dispute the figures from Portugal, shouldn't we really be asking the question 'Does it matter if drug use increases upon legalisation?'<br /><br />Of course we'd all like to see drug use drop, but you have to prepare for each scenario.<br /><br />If you legalise and drug use drops then great. If it stays static then that's fine too. If it increases, then there's a grey area. Personally I feel that the benefit of reduced crime (nearly all crime these days can be traced back to drugs being illegal) is well worth the costs of a few people unable to exercise self-control. No doubt there are others who disagree.Mark Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00437341898224311426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-5591542342304917632009-07-24T12:44:30.965+01:002009-07-24T12:44:30.965+01:00Mark Reckons, yes I saw the BBC report on Portugal...Mark Reckons, yes I saw the BBC report on Portugal's policy recently. Take the criminal element out of it and it does seem to be better for everyone. All it takes is a few brave MP's to take a stand on this (Not just Paul Flynn).Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10904181998734097782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-41158029254307208202009-07-24T12:39:18.218+01:002009-07-24T12:39:18.218+01:00for me, to a degree, the whole 'should we lega...for me, to a degree, the whole 'should we legalise drugs' argument is irrelevant because you can still *get* them - supposedly illegal or not. and without hermetic border controls and strip searching every visitor to the UK, they always will be. and as one commentator has said, its not the use of drugs that is the problem but the *abuse*. if you legalise them, the problem would be brought under some kind of control, generate some tax revenue (quite a lot of revenue, I would imagine) and remove the vastly inflated profits (and so the motivation) that the dealers now make.<br />isnt it more sensible to co-operate with the inevitable?the man who fell back to bedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06509908059958841049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-65323071398169695152009-07-24T12:28:19.152+01:002009-07-24T12:28:19.152+01:00I think we should probably start making a distinct...I think we should probably start making a distinction between recreational drugs (ecstasy, cocaine, cannabis) which can cause problems but generally speaking are used quite happily by large numbers of people leading normal lives and more dangerous drugs (heroin, crack-cocaine) which seem much more likely to cause major problems. Perhaps we should legalise some and then focus on the really damaging ones, although I appreciate this will almost certainly cause an increase in drug use generally and potentially increased social/health risks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-23546678769574709022009-07-24T12:26:51.703+01:002009-07-24T12:26:51.703+01:00Yes, I've tried coke and yes I have occasional...Yes, I've tried coke and yes I have occasionally in the past smoked cannabis. It didn't turn me into a monster and it hasn't wrecked my life. I'm not saying everyone should go out and do it, but I'm not going to moralise either. The fact is that drug abuse tends to be the same as alcohol abuse. I like the occasional drink, but I could never live my life dependant on it and unlike a lot of people, alcohol never made me agressive either. <br /><br />The most effective way to defeat drugs? Cut out the dealers and suppliers. Legalise it and regulate it through pharmaceutical means to ensure nothing harmful is added. Tax it to death (I mean treat it like a chainsmoking alcoholic motorist) and invest the tax receipts in treatment centres. There'll be a lot of moralising from certain sections of society but in the end it will be better for everyone. The war on drugs cannot be won (well, it can, but only for one side).Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10904181998734097782noreply@blogger.com