tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post5989819315192352882..comments2024-03-04T17:54:32.559+00:00Comments on Iain Dale's Diary: The Anti-AV Campaign Must Be PositiveIain Dalehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03270146219458384372noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-62395885578939862332010-10-10T14:16:03.243+01:002010-10-10T14:16:03.243+01:00I'm not sure what your point is if only 20% vo...I'm not sure what your point is if only 20% voted then 80% should've if they'd cared.AJUKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15900087946461840625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-49700924184711700572010-09-07T20:21:19.664+01:002010-09-07T20:21:19.664+01:00How can you equalise the size of constituencies?
...How can you equalise the size of constituencies? <br /><br />What are we going to do- repatriate half of Cowes to Stornaway?<br /><br />Unless one poor sod is going to have to represent the whole Highlands & Islands (in which case bye bye United Kingdom) then you can't equalise the seats.<br /><br />And when you think about fairness of MPs workload, it does look a clumsy attempt to wipe out Labour in the South- ironic as Labour basically rescued the Conservatives with PR in Scotland and Wales.<br /><br />You can't really blame them for opposing the gerrymandering thats been linked with AV.<br /><br />You're not going to eat your favourite sandwich if someone's slipped a dogturd in there are you?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01952550278660027732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-22075433951861341762010-09-07T09:02:01.607+01:002010-09-07T09:02:01.607+01:00"I didn't put it down as a model to follo..."I didn't put it down as a model to follow, just pointed out that Neil's assertion that new countries go for PR is by no means always right."<br /><br />Might I also point out that those African counties aren't exactly new either? Half of 'em became independent before I was born - and I'm in my forties.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01962138781180304564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-51872709223139200812010-09-07T08:25:54.080+01:002010-09-07T08:25:54.080+01:00Thresholds for referendums are wrong. If you go do...Thresholds for referendums are wrong. If you go down this avenue you might as well do it for general elections as well - 36% of the vote on a 65%turn out gives Cameron a mandate to govern from less than a quarter of the electorate.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12307700724904653524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-14993773640206818562010-09-06T21:00:16.326+01:002010-09-06T21:00:16.326+01:00I've said it before but it's worth repeati...I've said it before but it's worth repeating<br /><br />Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Western Isles) 21,884<br />Orkney and Shetland 32,181<br />Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross<br />46,533<br />Total 100598<br /><br />Isle of Wight 103,480<br /><br />Something is rotten here. The Average should be the average, Scotland has it's own parliament so if anything should have less MPsAlisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01849037521460218889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-53992856553289133372010-09-06T19:04:26.133+01:002010-09-06T19:04:26.133+01:00Adam
I didn't put it down as a model to follo...Adam<br /><br />I didn't put it down as a model to follow, just pointed out that Neil's assertion that new countries go for PR is by no means always right.Seanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03234085314662011091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-41964172121523491132010-09-06T18:46:39.787+01:002010-09-06T18:46:39.787+01:00It would surely be a matter of common sense to com...It would surely be a matter of common sense to combine the referendum on Av with a referendum on our continued membership of the EU, which exercise was promised to the British people but denied to them by obfuscation and lies.Donhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16203730611620941266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-33154021582436706762010-09-06T18:07:55.962+01:002010-09-06T18:07:55.962+01:00"Most of the African countries which were Bri..."Most of the African countries which were British colonies went for some of FPTP."<br /><br />Well let's be frank. Given the various problems that most of these African countries have undergone over the last few years - and it isn't down to lack of resources, after all, these countries are resource rich - I'm rather surprised that anyone would put this forward as a model to follow.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01962138781180304564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-63859131853974558082010-09-06T16:02:11.251+01:002010-09-06T16:02:11.251+01:00new countries tend to go for some sort of 'ful...new countries tend to go for some sort of 'full PR' variant, presumably for good reason.<br /><br /><br />I am constantly in awe of the rich democratic traditions of AfricaNewmaniahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11922161971821380803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-69643784942548770772010-09-06T14:58:17.968+01:002010-09-06T14:58:17.968+01:00> Neil
Most of the African countries which wer...> Neil<br /><br />Most of the African countries which were British colonies went for some of FPTP.Seanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03234085314662011091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-57388039085094116312010-09-06T13:57:49.518+01:002010-09-06T13:57:49.518+01:00"The least-worst alternative to FPTP"
I..."The least-worst alternative to FPTP"<br /><br />I find that an interesting phrase to use - it implies that you believe FPTP to be the best possible voting system. Is that right?<br /><br />I can't believe that if we founded a new country tomorrow we'd pick FPTP, a muddled system we arrived at after centuries of compromise. In fact, new countries tend to go for some sort of 'full PR' variant, presumably for good reason.enhughesiasmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15333003092499595518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-57745176963338980302010-09-06T13:53:51.050+01:002010-09-06T13:53:51.050+01:00The Labour claims that equalising constituency siz...The <a href="http://sean-haffey.blogspot.com/2010/07/remember-elbridge-gerry-mmm-i-thought.html" rel="nofollow">Labour claims that equalising constituency sizes is gerrymandering is demonstrably false</a>. But it's a good soundbite, so I expect they'll continue it.Seanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03234085314662011091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-21418830168787087392010-09-06T13:46:12.081+01:002010-09-06T13:46:12.081+01:00I hope the rebels are successful...What this is, i...I hope the rebels are successful...What this is, is the thin edge of the wedge..Sure this bit of AV might be light but what comes after it wont be....<br /><br /> Like all crackpot ideas it needs killing at birth..Mirtha Tidvillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07940977481295375071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-72547903744549997422010-09-06T13:00:34.654+01:002010-09-06T13:00:34.654+01:00In my opinion at least half the electorate must tu...In my opinion at least half the electorate must turn out in order for the referendum to be valid. The point is, after all, about moving to a more proportionate voting system and if the majority of people can't be bothered to cast their vote then I see no reason why big changes to the constitution should be allowed. Change of this nature should only occur when people are enthusiastic enough to say yes to it.<br /><br />Furthermore, I really don't understand why the LibDems are pushing for the referendum to be held on local election day. Surely the Coalition is only fated to become more unpopular by that time as the cuts begin to become more apparent? In which case, a coalition party campaigning for a yes vote and being seen to prop up the 'evil Tories' is hardly going to be an encouragement to vote for something that party really really wants, is it?<br /><br />Or perhaps this is a bluff? Maybe Clegg is pushing for that date because he knows full well the measure will be rejected?Cogito Dexterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13474929728659342255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-47679635102155637752010-09-06T12:41:35.406+01:002010-09-06T12:41:35.406+01:00So let me get this straight. Even if a vote for AV...So let me get this straight. Even if a vote for AV received over 50% of 'Yes' votes cast, if the turnout is too low, then the referendum should be invalidated?<br /><br />Sorry, but I don't believe that's how our democracy works. If people do not cast their vote, that's their business. We can only consider those who do wish to cast their vote.<br /><br />If we follow your logic, then David Cameron (who received 58% of votes cast in his constituency on a turn out of 73.3%), only received 43% of votes from everyone in his constituency. I.e. more than half of his constituents did not vote for him. Shall we get him to hand in the keys to 10 Downing Street now?G'Funkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17086923874052448628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-40551120861531497802010-09-06T12:30:55.178+01:002010-09-06T12:30:55.178+01:00There is a straightforward case to support AV deri...There is a straightforward case to support AV derived from traditional conservative principles. Not to reflect the shift from main Parties since the 50s risks destabilising and de legitimising government. That is decidedly not what any Conservative would want<br />The problem is, in a sense, the Liberal Party. Here you have a coherent organisation capable, in short time ,of leaping to the left of Labour and then allying with the right. It is a ruthless acquirer and user of power <br />Whilst the principle of a greater proportionality may have some claim the fact of handing power in perpetuity to the Party the country likes least is obviously a perverse outcome .<br /><br />Furthermore the assumption must be that any shift towards proportionality must be the slippery slope a Liberal hegemony .Newmaniahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11922161971821380803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-37272594054721228592010-09-06T12:28:56.778+01:002010-09-06T12:28:56.778+01:00"Their reasoning is that they will vote again..."Their reasoning is that they will vote against because the bill also contains measures to make constituencies more equal in size"<br /><br />Wrong, Iain. Our objection is to the entirely arbitrary reduction in the number of seats, which is simply a crude attempt to curry favour with the rabid right-wing anti-politics brigade. We have no objection whatever to the proposal to reduce slightly the modest difference between the average sizes of constituencies.<br /><br />The Bill also abolishes the right for local people to have a say at a local inquiry when their constituency boundaries change. We oppose that, so why on earth would we vote for the Bill?Tom Harrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07558668466362429378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-63870333496572728032010-09-06T12:24:37.465+01:002010-09-06T12:24:37.465+01:00As Guido has said, I can't understand why anyo...As Guido has said, I can't understand why anyone would require a minimum turnout unless they also believe in compulsory voting.<br /><br />Also, it has already been pointed out that, in the event of a minimum turnout requirement, anyone who doesn't bother to vote would in effect be voting for the staus quo.<br /><br />The real puzzle though is why, if AV is such a bad system, do the three main parties all use it to select their leaders?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01962138781180304564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-52471695979209093052010-09-06T10:47:21.091+01:002010-09-06T10:47:21.091+01:00You are right Iain. The size of constituencies sho...You are right Iain. The size of constituencies should be equalized.<br /><br />You are wrong though, to defend FPTP. In 2010, the Conservatives got 36% of the popular vote and 47% of the seats. Labour got 29% of the popular vote and 39% of the seats. The LibDems got 23% of the popular vote and 9% of the seats. How anyone can defend this while at the same time arguing that constituencies should be equalized on "democratic" grounds is beyond me. I can only assume you have your tongue firmly in your cheek.<br /><br />As to thresholds for important constitutional changes, there were none for the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly referendums, both events with much greater significance for the constitutional future of the whole of the UK than AV. If a threshold is imposed Nick Clegg should walk.<br /><br />For the avoidance of doubt, I am not a LIbDem, I did not wish to see them in coalition and I certainly don't want to see them in power. In a proper democracy, however, you can't always have what you want.Salmondnethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04135160187810480222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-42365254473443957482010-09-06T10:23:46.445+01:002010-09-06T10:23:46.445+01:00As a long standing Conservtaive I thought initiall...As a long standing Conservtaive I thought initially I'd be against AV, <i>but now I'm not so sure</i>.<br /><br />Interestingly I could be persuaded.<br /><br />A change in voting system would mean a change in the parties ( and oddly I think the Lib Dems will be the biggest victims of this - <i>they are no where near as popular as they think they are</i> ).<br /><br />So I'm really looking forward to the debate ....Man in a Shedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00990902055642035293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-87934746513608509662010-09-06T10:00:03.960+01:002010-09-06T10:00:03.960+01:00First you say that in any case AV is just "FP...First you say that in any case AV is just "FPTP Lite", next you're saying it's a "major constitutional change" for which any referendum in favour must pass a threshold. What happened to the fundamental principle of a simple majority of one of votes cast being enough to pass a motion? I seem to remember that principle was all the rage when a threshold was proposed for a vote in the House to dissolve Parliament.<br /><br />Yes, please, let's have a positive argument put for retaining FPTP. It does have some good points as does AV. But really this proposed change isn't one which is going excite the public at large, the vast majority of whom could care less.<br /><br />Surely, a low turnout in a referendum simply means that people don't really mind one way or the other? I don't see how you can assume that staying at home equates to wanting the status quo, which is what a threshold implies.<br /><br />Of course, you know the turnout will be low, and you want the status quo, so be honest. You are not proposing a threshold because of some high flown principle about constitutional change, but simply because you know it would deliver the outcome you want.HarveyRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06040051396718924287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-5860405854186125672010-09-06T09:48:34.665+01:002010-09-06T09:48:34.665+01:00I guess you mean PR-lite, but I still have had no ...I guess you mean PR-lite, but I still have had no answer from any Pro-FPTP person with regards to this question:<br /><br />If we had AV, or STV, what would your argument be for switching to FPTP? And do you really think anyone would buy it?<br /><br />The arguments for AV, AV+, AMS, and STV are all solid. Problem with your 'positive anti' campaign is that there are no reasons for keeping FPTP, just reasons not to choose one of the above alternatives.<br /><br />Oh, I forgot about the ever-ephemeral 'Constituency Link'.Verblethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18423091738500831882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-77925068821357425642010-09-06T09:19:11.520+01:002010-09-06T09:19:11.520+01:00as a fan of FPTP where there is no threshold to be...as a fan of FPTP where there is no threshold to be reached before someone is elected, why do you want a different criteria for a referendum? Unless you want compulsory voting (like Australia) is the assumption that those who can't be bothered to vote accept the result, whatever it may be?Guy de Ferrerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16082557206156132157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-90732067918179951712010-09-06T09:15:41.807+01:002010-09-06T09:15:41.807+01:00And what about all of us that don't think FPTP...And what about all of us that don't think FPTP, AV or our present system is in any way democratic.<br /><br />Your article summarises everything that is wrong with politics and why 60% + of people never take part. It is tribal no thoughts for what is best for democracy or the future of the country jus point scoring over the other lotLibertarianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15219132362086878801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-12389398635624388112010-09-06T09:09:59.573+01:002010-09-06T09:09:59.573+01:00Given the importance of this issue, the majority c...Given the importance of this issue, the majority criteria should be fifty percent of the electorate and not just fifty per cent of those that bothered turning out, otherwise we are setting ourselves up for a potential tyranny of a Libdim minority.Jabba the Cathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08378736389976858775noreply@blogger.com