tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post3643097367540235926..comments2024-03-04T17:54:32.559+00:00Comments on Iain Dale's Diary: 189,000 Abortions in 2009Iain Dalehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03270146219458384372noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-38370245609938643132010-05-25T22:08:36.677+01:002010-05-25T22:08:36.677+01:00Perhaps getting totally zonked out of one's mi...Perhaps getting totally zonked out of one's mind on booze and drugs overrides the safe sex message. I am old enough to remember the days when abortion was illegal and know of 3 women who had illegal abortions. One was because she was divorced and her boyfriend was catholic. They were trying to get her previous marriage annulled so they could get married in a catholic church as his parents would never accept a divorcee as a daughter-in-law. How he, as a "good" catholic boy, could justify abortion on those grounds is completely beyond me. There are all sorts of reasons for abortion, and they are not for me to decide whether or not they are valid reasons. I offer my support and commiserations to any woman who feels abortion is the best choice for her under her circumstances. As for the pro-lifers, they are not pro-life but pro-power to themselves.happinesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374148305020402076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-41308041774985930032010-05-25T20:07:35.775+01:002010-05-25T20:07:35.775+01:00As a very proud pro-choice camp member I find this...As a very proud pro-choice camp member I find this number quite horrifying, mainly due to the fact that the message of contraception clearly isn't getting through. We live in an age of increasing STDs which cause more damage and long-term illness than purely abortion. <br /><br />The trend seems to show that it's across all age groups and that either men and women aren't taking the responsibility of safe sex seriously or women aren't able to ensure their own sexual safety against men confidently enough. Both of which are worrying.The Pink Cabalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08061704222515360918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-26694072015195904652010-05-25T20:00:52.498+01:002010-05-25T20:00:52.498+01:00Good grief, Dale!
You must be desperate for statp...Good grief, Dale!<br /><br />You must be desperate for statporn to start an abortion thread.<br /><br />Why not one on carrying weapons?<br /><br />That'll bring out the other batch of loonies.Malcolm Redfellowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11907427518823910875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-19777221517390809112010-05-25T18:42:59.736+01:002010-05-25T18:42:59.736+01:00"It's good to know there is at least one ..."It's good to know there is at least one thing that unites the prochoice and prolife supporters: an inability to follow an argument."<br /><br />Nor should we forget those people (such as yourself) who are too stupid to notice when others are agreeing with them.wildhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14437167510102273197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-35910754934109159242010-05-25T18:40:25.443+01:002010-05-25T18:40:25.443+01:00The argument to reduce the limit is powerful....as...The argument to reduce the limit is powerful....as are the pictures that frequently accompany them. However, the vast majority (90% according to Iain's figures) of terminations occur early in the pregnancy where viability is not an issue. A significant number of 2nd trimester terminations, especially those after 20 weeks, are due to major problems that have been identified at the anomoly scan (19-21 weeks ish). The problem is identified, the patient is sent to a specialist for further scans and testing (a third opinion may be needed), and there needs to be serious discussion over the likely outcomes before a decision is made.<br />Although it is legal to perform a termination at any gestation if there are sufficient concerns re: maternal or fetal health, nobody chooses this course without a great deal of thought.Alexandrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13036677499483940099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-13253593134024611842010-05-25T16:49:23.539+01:002010-05-25T16:49:23.539+01:00Alan Douglas "We could give them away free i...Alan Douglas <i> "We could give them away free in schools and clinics".</i><br /><br />That should work.Little Black Sambohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16699227938165106710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-58399311496789353312010-05-25T15:59:41.575+01:002010-05-25T15:59:41.575+01:00If only someone had the genius required to invent ...If only someone had the genius required to invent some safe and easy method of contraception.<br /><br />Oh, I know, some kind of envelope perhaps - we could call them condoms. We could give them away free in schools and clinics, and this would save so much upset and hassle while allowing the great unwashed as much pleasure as they could stand.<br /><br />I even know a good name for such items : condoms.<br /><br />Come on you geniuses ....<br /><br />Alan DouglasAlan Douglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16071898364060640779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-62752162028402266782010-05-25T15:52:24.652+01:002010-05-25T15:52:24.652+01:00@Cronan said... "I still don't understand...@Cronan said... "I still don't understand what there is to be shocked about"<br /><br />@wild said... How very bourgeois... Leftist, Rousseau...children (to their likely death)... All that matters is "I want".<br /><br />It's good to know there is at least one thing that unites the prochoice and prolife supporters: an inability to follow an argument.Hughhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14136388438458700932noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-7327684762212572142010-05-25T15:06:14.138+01:002010-05-25T15:06:14.138+01:00@Walter : I was asserting that some people might b...@Walter : I was asserting that some people might be pro-choice, and while supporting the right of choice, would hold a preference that there might be fewer abortions than there are. Surely, it is not impossible to be pro-choice but also pro-addressing the factors that lead women to make that choice. After all, wouldn't it be better if women who make the choice because of economic reasons had more support available to them, that in the cases of those who do so because of rape that more was done to reduce the incidence of rape, or that those who become pregnant as a consequence of unprotected, that they and their partner had had better advice on contraception made available to them? All of those approaches and others would have the result of reducing the number of abortions. Or is it the idea that all of those situations are 'solved' by terminations and hence no effort need be put into addressing them?<br /><br />You are hardly claiming that the mantra of safe, legal and rare is to cast a negative light on the individual choices people make?<br /><br />@Glyn H, those Irish women are typically going private, not on the NHS. They merely use an English address so as not to receive any correspondence at their home address in Ireland.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03238749613615582511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-75924845317695369362010-05-25T14:12:05.422+01:002010-05-25T14:12:05.422+01:00@Cronan
I think people are shocked at the absolu...@Cronan <br /><br />I think people are shocked at the absolute numbers, rather than percentage breakdowns.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-28354310233326699042010-05-25T14:09:10.828+01:002010-05-25T14:09:10.828+01:00I don't find it horrifying at all. If 189,000...I don't find it horrifying at all. If 189,000 women decided that disposing of an unwanted foetus was a better idea than giving birth to an unwanted child, then:<br /><br />a) It's their choice, and nothing to do with us.<br />b) It's a thoroughly good thing for society. An unwanted child has less chance than a wanted one of becoming a contented and productive member of society.<br />c) The 189,000 were foetuses, not people. Many millions more were aborted naturally in the first days and weeks of pregnancy.<br /><br />One of the wonderful things about the UK compared to the US is that abortion is not a political issue, and anti-abortion campaigners have a marginal influence on the public debate. Long may that continue to be the case.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02208284413668352195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-85206684684516305712010-05-25T14:03:41.514+01:002010-05-25T14:03:41.514+01:00Just to add a slight twist to the argument. In a b...Just to add a slight twist to the argument. In a book by Steven Levitt and Stephen J. Dubner called Freakonomics there is strong support for the hypothesis that abortion reduces crime.<br /><br />Discuss...Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12073019640077080501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-65152240414072582722010-05-25T13:51:50.403+01:002010-05-25T13:51:50.403+01:00@Hugh - certainly I would agree being pro-choice d...@Hugh - certainly I would agree being pro-choice doesn't preclude being shocked - but I don't see the case for the assertion that being shocked should be the default for pro-choicers. Straw poll of my peers here, who are all pro-choice, was general apathy one way or the other. <br /><br />I'm certainly not in favour of removing term limits, in cases where it comes down to a matter of choice rather than medical necessity ; I'm not sure where I gave that impression. <br /><br />Whether the term limit is correct is really another argument ; I have no dog in that fight at all. I think like most pro lifers, if I can make that assertion, it's obvious that a baby delivered at term is fully human, if not definitely self aware, but in any case is deserving of protection. <br /><br />I think it's a reasonable assumption ( I know some pro-lifers would vehemently disagree with me here ) that at some point the blastocyst is merely a non aware collection of cells, which pro-choicers would maintain is not deserving of protection at this point. <br /><br />The logical argument from there is that at some point, there is a crossover from non human to human. Where that point is I'll happily defer to medical consensus on. <br /><br />I will freely admit, that I have no ethical concerns about abortion in general, subject to term limits.Walterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04007136753458551490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-11159523792301048722010-05-25T13:48:09.997+01:002010-05-25T13:48:09.997+01:00Cronan: "...we are not talking about human be...Cronan: "<i>...we are not talking about human beings here</i>".<br /><br />Oh, that settles it then.Little Black Sambohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16699227938165106710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-48781964959366259872010-05-25T13:35:43.395+01:002010-05-25T13:35:43.395+01:00Perhaps they should try and concentrate on not get...Perhaps they should try and concentrate on not getting pregnant in the first place by ensuring they use birth control. <br /><br />Don't get me wrong, I'm pro-choice...and am never one to turn down the charms of a lusty young lady (It seems rude to refuse!) but adequate measures need to be taken to prevent unwanted pregnancies. Abortions should be last resort.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10904181998734097782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-63384691554751828542010-05-25T13:25:36.222+01:002010-05-25T13:25:36.222+01:00Personally I'm of the opinion that what a preg...<i>Personally I'm of the opinion that what a pregnant woman decides to do is none of my or anyone else's damn business.</i><br /><br />It is however the damn business of the defenceless child, who till recently was protected by law.Little Black Sambohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16699227938165106710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-31442042842317673902010-05-25T12:53:04.086+01:002010-05-25T12:53:04.086+01:00"Such a view doesn't preclude being shock..."Such a view doesn't preclude being shocked if the abortion rate is such that it seems it is being used casually or if abortions are being carried out very late."<br /><br />How very bourgeois. The first Modern Leftist, Rousseau, sent all his new born children (to their likely death) at foundling orphanages. All that matters is "I want".wildhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14437167510102273197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-64418029139221566572010-05-25T12:50:44.705+01:002010-05-25T12:50:44.705+01:00Abortion is murder. Why is it that your average, e...Abortion is murder. Why is it that your average, every days murderers cannot cite "pro-choice"? if they decide it is in their best interests to kill somebody?<br /><br />It is always interesting to see how many "pro-choice" people are hysterical about protecting the rights of foxes and other fluffy animals. Can no one else spot the contradiction of logic in that?Wrinkled Weaselhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05291551539649118631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-55316128847152427212010-05-25T12:45:00.157+01:002010-05-25T12:45:00.157+01:00Opinicus, Wild - do sod off, please, you stupid bl...Opinicus, Wild - do sod off, please, you stupid bloody trolls.Cronanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00399163899432433951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-38797851692572121842010-05-25T12:43:47.341+01:002010-05-25T12:43:47.341+01:00Cronan - 9/11 was brought up to indicate the scale...Cronan - 9/11 was brought up to indicate the scale. People are bad at big numbers.<br /><br />My argument was not a straw man, since they are human beings.<br /><br />You make possible suggestions as to why embryos, fetuses, etc. are not human beings. But none of them can be held consistently.<br /><br />If you are not a human being unless you feel pain, then you cease to be human under general anaesthetic.<br /><br />If being viable without the help of others, neither are babies outside the womb. So they're not humans.<br /><br />Survivors at 23 weeks may be few in number, may be disabled, but in what way does that make the practice acceptable?<br /><br />Would you care to suggest why they should not be treated as human life?<br /><br />I am actually pro-freedom (of the baby). Pro-choice (of the baby).<br /><br />I have never seen a reason for the moral acceptance of abortion that does not also allow for infanticide and eugenics. Perhaps you'd care to provide me with one.<br /><br />You could say that the woman's choice is more important than the human/semi-human's life. But that's a separate matter. All I'm arguing above is that life in the womb is more significant than mere cells.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06846458475646782293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-58126151944164436042010-05-25T12:43:47.342+01:002010-05-25T12:43:47.342+01:00Hugh, forgelindin, Calum it seems to me that the ...Hugh, forgelindin, Calum it seems to me that the facts about abortion in the UK are as follows, ignoring Daily Mail statistics:<br /><br />a) abortion rates are falling<br />b) we rank 9th or 10th in Europe per capita<br />c) 40% of abortions are for medical reasons, and are supported by all but the looniest<br />d) 91% of abortions are performed under 13 weeks, when the fetus is not viable and feels no pain<br /><br />I still don't understand what there is to be shocked about, or am I missing something?Cronanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00399163899432433951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-9248654074167430552010-05-25T12:37:33.384+01:002010-05-25T12:37:33.384+01:00Glyn H: Re: Damilola Taylor - so what is your poin...Glyn H: Re: Damilola Taylor - so what is your point here? You seem to me to be a hairs-breadth away from saying "it was his own fault".Cronanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00399163899432433951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-18558726979085738282010-05-25T12:33:54.133+01:002010-05-25T12:33:54.133+01:00189,000 less drug addicts, drug dealers, alcoholic...189,000 less drug addicts, drug dealers, alcoholics, hustlers, pimps, prostitutes and criminals on the streets!Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07456462562170192857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-49723295857122646852010-05-25T12:26:13.336+01:002010-05-25T12:26:13.336+01:00@Walter: @Hugh - I'm not really following the ...@Walter: @Hugh - I'm not really following the logic that pro-choice advocates would actually care that much one way or the other..."<br /><br />I've always understood the pro-choice argument to be that while abortions are, generally speaking, undesirable we accept them as a necessary cost of safeguarding women's freedom. As I understood it, it was a question of balance. <br /><br />Such a view doesn't preclude being shocked if the abortion rate is such that it seems it is being used casually or if abortions are being carried out very late. Someone who is pro-choice would then perhaps argue for greater efforts to promote contraception so fewer abortions were needed. <br /><br />Your argument seems to be that being pro-choice necessarily means that abortions raise no ethical issues for you at all. It also, as far as I can tell, would suggest we should entirely remove the term limit on them. Personally, even among the pro-choice camp, I suspect that's a minority view.Hughhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14136388438458700932noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-17587517193674409322010-05-25T12:24:06.975+01:002010-05-25T12:24:06.975+01:00A high abortion rate is good eugenicsA high abortion rate is good eugenicsOpinicushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18134092240378025330noreply@blogger.com