tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post307238098072399250..comments2024-03-04T17:54:32.559+00:00Comments on Iain Dale's Diary: Mark Reckons Dan Hannan Is RightIain Dalehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03270146219458384372noreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-51430646287163611662009-08-29T17:51:17.213+01:002009-08-29T17:51:17.213+01:00You and Neil Hamilton both eh Dale?
http://www.da...You and Neil Hamilton both eh Dale?<br /><br />http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/24849<br /><br />Not that Hamilton is, or ever was, a serious political figure but then neither is Hannan. Or Dale for that matter...<br /><br />Note the BNP support in the comments. It's probably not the Tory party where Powell's views get the most support.<br /><br />It's also a bit of a positive spin that Powell was trying to put serious arguments about 'mass' immigration. In fact, the lion's share of his speech was to argue against the first race equality laws that were about to be introduced. What's more he invented a story about a supposed constituent in order to do it.<br /><br />So that's lying to add to the blatant racism. Some might also see it as bit of a betrayal of the West Indies workers brought over by Powell when he was Health Secretary some years before, who had saved the NHS.Andyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03710776765139258627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-77566315931252877082009-08-29T10:50:41.219+01:002009-08-29T10:50:41.219+01:00The Oncoming Storm:
He vehmently opposed the deat...The Oncoming Storm:<br /><br /><i>He vehmently opposed the death penalty as "repugnant," and was against capital punishment in schools.</i><br /><br />I should hope so too...Brit.in.Aussienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-84892884633696001522009-08-28T18:36:45.337+01:002009-08-28T18:36:45.337+01:00Powell was a hugely complex man who was probably h...Powell was a hugely complex man who was probably his own worst enemy. His big mistake was his choice of rhetoric for Rivers of Blood which was ill judged and incendiary. Had he given that speech in a more considered and less apocalyptic way then he may have achieved more in regards immigration.<br /><br />When you read about Powell's beliefs you set that he was far ahead of the Conservative Party on social policy. He vehmently opposed the death penalty as "repugnant," and was against capital punishment in schools. He also pushed to legalise homosexuality and abortion and advocated no fault divorces. What I most admire him for was his impassioned denunciation of the brutal killing of 11 Mau Mau prisoners at the Hola Camp in Kenya, giving in the process what Denis Healey called the greatest speech he ever heard in Parliament.<br /><br />He actually was my MP for the first 11 years of my life, I'm from Newry in Northern Ireland and he was elected MP for South Down shortly after I was born and he was my MP until we moved house in 1985. Of course I was too young to know just what a giant figure he was!The Oncoming Stormnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-66594243540499207812009-08-28T18:18:17.841+01:002009-08-28T18:18:17.841+01:00Actually my impression always was that Powell had ...Actually my impression always was that Powell had no respect for his party leader and was seeking to undermine him by raising a provocative issue which he knew would cause embarrassment.<br /><br />I wonder in what way he was an influence on Hannan?Jimmyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01542633492362670045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-48453452977793603072009-08-28T17:50:09.610+01:002009-08-28T17:50:09.610+01:00The erudite Dan Hannan should ponder the thought t...The erudite Dan Hannan should ponder the thought that "libertarian Conservatism" is just an oxymoron. Perhaps he means "self-indulgent Conservatism" ? Does he understand the meaning of libertarianism ?Dimotonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-57609129940112269182009-08-28T14:35:54.859+01:002009-08-28T14:35:54.859+01:00Strap- Powell was anti American and anti EU. You ...Strap- Powell was anti American and anti EU. You can be both I suppose but where that leaves Britain I am not sure.<br /><br />If I thought we had any influence I the EU I would be happy - apart from the unaccountable way the EU works (something which Cameron has said he would oppose and seek to reform) - but we do not. If I trusted the Democrats I would be happy to support America, but I don't.<br /><br />So life is complicated. Powell for all his virtues (and I am happy to agree with him [and you] on many things) was too fond of his own intellectual certainty. Ultimately that left him without influence. I too can admire Powell, but in the end all he achieved was - nothing.<br /><br />Well that's not completely true, you can take your own views and learn from his mistakes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-63836420811192223732009-08-28T14:34:01.147+01:002009-08-28T14:34:01.147+01:00I entirely agree with you, Iain.
Over here (in A...I entirely agree with you, Iain. <br /><br />Over here (in America), Barack Obama was quite unfairly criticised during the Democratic debates for praising certain aspects of Reaganism. Surely one can pay tribute to a certain aspect of someone's character -- or certain things they've said -- without supporting them <i>entirely</i>. <br /><br />Enoch Powell was right about a lot of things.Thomas Rossettihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16242906347478972349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-29185660449513605112009-08-28T13:55:59.949+01:002009-08-28T13:55:59.949+01:00Iain
I agree with everything you say. I disagree...Iain<br /><br />I agree with everything you say. I disagree profoundly with Powell's views on race relations, but that doesn't stop me agreeing with his arguments on democracy and sovereignty, or respecting his intellect.<br /><br />As for knee jerk reactions...Mandelson's reponse was entirely predictable and pathetic...but then so was the Tory response to David Milibands thoughtful comments on Joe Slovo and justification for acts of 'terrorism.'<br /><br />If we want grown up political debate in Britain then all sides have to grow up, and I include my own party, the Lib Dems in that.Keith Elliottnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-63648491337363422872009-08-28T13:34:17.666+01:002009-08-28T13:34:17.666+01:00Trevors Den. Enoch was not in favour of the Common...Trevors Den. Enoch was not in favour of the Common Market as he could see the way it was directed towards a United States of Europe, which Brown has now consigned us to!<br /><br />Your friend Cameron will not hold the referendum, if the Irish say YES. Believe me! We are, as in true Dads Army parlance Doomed!<br /><br />Read the excellent autobiography by Simon Heffer.<br /><br />His views on Turkey, I believe,were Nato based!<br /><br />I was very lucky to have known Enoch Powell. My father was his agent in Wolverhampton and I met him regularily.strapworldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18228784526399929300noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-43642211024393139652009-08-28T12:40:16.910+01:002009-08-28T12:40:16.910+01:00hannan and powell are the nasty torys eveyone hate...hannan and powell are the nasty torys eveyone hates,except the weirdo bunch of tories like kavavagh,fraser nelson,etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1070578376705242122009-08-28T12:33:29.619+01:002009-08-28T12:33:29.619+01:00I largely agree with David Boothroyd's analysi...I largely agree with David Boothroyd's analysis. Powell, hugely intelligent and charismatic though he was, preferred to stick to a principled position rather than knuckle down to the long haul and the inevitable compromises that come with accumulating a track record in government. Unambiguous positions always are attractive, and it is useful to have someone in the body politic behaving that way, but it doesn't necessarily contribute much to good government. It would be a huge waste if Mr Hannan took that road himself - he shows every sign of enjoying too much the easy applause that goes with it. <br /><br />With Powell, where I feel the gloss comes off his principled stances, is that he seemed through his career to change his position 180 degrees. This was a man who went from not being religiously observant to being immensely high church; who went from being totally pro empire to being an isolationist. As an intellectual, he enjoyed too much the thrill that came with being a rabble rouser - the choice of language in his rivers of blood speech (whip hand etc) was too calculated to inflame. The points could have been made with less inflamatory language, but he was deliberately playing the race card for personal political gain. And got it wrong.Tednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-20581578132308045932009-08-28T12:33:17.979+01:002009-08-28T12:33:17.979+01:00The problem is that 99% of the voting public only ...The problem is that 99% of the voting public only remember the "Rivers of Blood" speech. And Labour take advantage of that.<br /><br />That's politics, unfortunately.Seanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03234085314662011091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-84195011053355124662009-08-28T12:18:30.797+01:002009-08-28T12:18:30.797+01:00You can add me to the list of people actually met ...You can add me to the list of people actually met Enoch Powell while I was an inky schoolboy. I <a href="http://www.di2.nu/200507/21b.htm" rel="nofollow">wrote</a> about it 4 years ago in the aftermath of the tube bombings.<br /><br />I'd like to expand on the difficulty of assimilation idea. The problem according to Powell (and IMHO he's yet to be proven wrong) is that humans have a built in suspicion of "the other" and so when you introduce "the other" into a community it will tend to ghettoize no matter what you try to do about it.<br /><br />This can of course be overcome eventually but recall that in 1968 (and even in the Rodney King beating of 1991) the US was struggling with racism and handling minorities. Going on the UK experience in N Ireland 300 years isn't necessarily enough time for strife free relations between immigrants and natives - even when the two are genetically almost identical. Powell no doubt looked at that, and at other long past mass immigrations such as the Spanish into Latin America or the Mughuls into India, and noted the persistently festering issues between the two groups.<br /><br />That doesn't mean I think (or that Powell thought) we should chuck the immigrants out. Au contraire I think they should stay and we should work to help them integrate, indeed many of them (and their children) make valuable contributions to the UK.<br /><br />However denying that there is a problem is sure to lead to the problem not being resolved.Francis Turnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09239588633595604498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-17722965087111158712009-08-28T11:58:14.217+01:002009-08-28T11:58:14.217+01:00I met the man twice and I liked him.
Here's my...I met the man twice and I liked him.<br />Here's my take:-<br /><br />http://web.mac.com/spunter1/Steve_Punter_Web_2/The_Bumblebee_Blog/Entries/2006/9/12_On_meeting_Mr_John_Enoch_Powell.htmlpeterporcupinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03154674941205714865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-22473277335801946942009-08-28T11:47:18.031+01:002009-08-28T11:47:18.031+01:00Killi... said
"The blood was already flowing...Killi... said<br /><br />"The blood was already flowing in Brixton some years ago"<br /><br />Nonsense!<br /><br />As somebody who lived in Brixton close to the affected areas, I can tell you that the 1981 Brixton riots were about opressive policing and drugs, not race or immigration.<br /><br />The smaller disturbances of 1985 and 1995 were, respectively, about the police shooting of an innocent woman and the death in custody of a young man.<br /><br />All three involved mixed groups of white and black people reacting to "authority". Attempts by the police and media to portray them otherwise were as predictable as they were incorrect.<br /><br />Brixton was in the 70s to 90s, despite many difficulties a great place to live, people were friendly and tolerant. I moved away because of work but have never found the same community anywhere else.Johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-66212590308866563972009-08-28T11:20:54.277+01:002009-08-28T11:20:54.277+01:00Strap - Powell wanted to see Turkey as part of the...Strap - Powell wanted to see Turkey as part of the Wast and saw Britain's political future in Europe. he did not see us as a world peacekeeper. He probably would not have supported Iraq or Afghanistan, indeed after the invasion of Kuwait ihe said we should not go to war. I for one cannot agree with Powell's views on this but we have to recognise the limits of what we can do.<br /><br />The contradictions are all part of Powell being too intellectual for his own good and its dodgy anyone using Powell as a beacon.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-56762262919496972732009-08-28T11:04:34.948+01:002009-08-28T11:04:34.948+01:00I do not see how Powell could be accused of coordi...I do not see how Powell could be accused of coordinating the resignation of his superior, Thorneycroft. <br /><br />Powells resignation did not prevent a Tory landslide victory. I do not see how resigning on principle (right or wrong) can harm a political party.<br /><br />Does Boothroyd say Cook was not respected in the Labour Party?<br /><br />Powell lets not forget started the closure of the great psychiatric institutions and a hospital rebuilding programme.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-31017580159569985532009-08-28T10:52:57.895+01:002009-08-28T10:52:57.895+01:00David Booothroyd paints just part of the story.
P...David Booothroyd paints just part of the story.<br /><br />Powell detested Heath (and Heath him!) because of Heath's complete devotion to the Common Market. He was aware of the sell out of our Fishing Industry etc. and it was because of the Labour Party's opposition (at that time) to the common market, that created the extremely unusual stance of asking people to support Labour.<br /><br />He refused to join Alec Douglas Hume's cabinet because he believed, rightly, that Macmillan in a fit of pique, and with party grandee's, on his sickbed refused to hand the baton to the one man the party wanted, namely RAB Butler. Powell was disgusted.<br /><br />Powell was a man of principle as is one of his great parliamentary friends<br />Micheal Foot.<br /><br />If Powell was as bad as Boothroyd paints him, I suggest that such a man of principle as Foot, would have no time for him!strapworldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18228784526399929300noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-39091511107619275072009-08-28T10:47:42.060+01:002009-08-28T10:47:42.060+01:00One would assume that the benefits derived from ar...One would assume that the benefits derived from arriving on these British shores as immigrant muslim women, would be to cast aside the old traditions of covering up their heads and faces and discard their submissive attitude to men, thus taking hold of the wonderful advantages that British women fought hard for over a hundred years ago.True Bellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16296161522047947133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-8150307408172055442009-08-28T10:47:18.218+01:002009-08-28T10:47:18.218+01:00I do have to say, though, I love WE GLadstone - do...I do have to say, though, I love WE GLadstone - doyenne of the Left, whipping boy for Disraeli, collector of fallen women (which I perhaps naively believe was innocent).<br /><br />That said, have you heard his speech on the Turks - admittedly, after a war?<br /><br />"Let me endeavor, very briefly to sketch, in the rudest outline what the Turkish race was and what it is. It is not a question of Mohammedanism simply, but of Mohammedanism compounded with the peculiar character of a race. They are not the mild Mohammedans of India, nor the chivalrous Saladins of Syria, nor the cultured Moors of Spain. They were, upon the whole, from the black day when they first entered Europe, the one great anti-human specimen of humanity. Wherever they went a broad line of blood marked the track behind them, and, as far as their dominion reached, civilization vanished from view. They represented everywhere government by force as opposed to government by law.—Yet a government by force can not be maintained without the aid of an intellectual element.— Hence there grew up, what has been rare in the history of the world, a kind of tolerance in the midst of cruelty, tyranny and rapine. Much of Christian life was contemptuously left alone and a race of Greeks was attracted to Constantinople which has all along made up, in some degree, the deficiencies of Turkish Islam in the element of mind!"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-65642538868772582832009-08-28T10:45:00.873+01:002009-08-28T10:45:00.873+01:00Since the great mass of British people agree with ...Since the great mass of British people agree with Powell it does not sound a good idea to me for Labour to bring this up.<br /><br />When Powell resigned fro the Tories (a mistake which brought about what he wanted to avoid) the Tory vote in the Midlands dropped significantly.<br /><br />PS Brown has just shafted himself again with his backbenchers - according to the Times<br />http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/5292651/brown-faces-another-backbench-revolt-.thtmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-88916139906618251322009-08-28T10:40:13.511+01:002009-08-28T10:40:13.511+01:00Excellent to hear some common sense. Though I disa...Excellent to hear some common sense. Though I disagree on a fundamental level with Hannan's NHS indictment, from what I've seen recently I truly admire the fact that he isn't afraid to speak his mind. Isn't this what we've always wanted from our politicians?<br />-- <br />Best,<br />R Blake<br /><><><><br />openprism.blogpsot.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-67769738575156453662009-08-28T10:40:03.658+01:002009-08-28T10:40:03.658+01:001. If a politician from a right of centre party ca...1. If a politician from a right of centre party came out and said he fully believed in Nietzche's idea of the Ubermensch, would the reaction of the general population be to:<br /><br />a) congratulate him for his understanding of his understanding of Nietzche's metaphorical post-Hegelian concept of the internal dialect, how we should create surroundings that allow genius to flourish in all, how we should all aspire to perfection and how greatness can come from all. . .<br /><br />b) Hear the word Uberman and think "NAZI!!"<br /><br />2. Assuming the politician was possessed of some understanding of the general level of eductation of his audience, which one of the two do you think he would intend his audience to infer?Donut Hinge Partynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-13217630348683179842009-08-28T10:38:21.957+01:002009-08-28T10:38:21.957+01:00Iain,
I don't know why you seem so keen to da...Iain,<br /><br />I don't know why you seem so keen to damp down the needed debate on immigration.<br /><br />We know from opinion polls that most people (from all parties and ethnic groups) want to see an end to continued mass immigration.<br /><br />We know (from left-leaning Robert Putnam's major piece of research) that as communities become more multicultural social capital breaks down.<br /><br />People draw in on themselves like a turtle going into its shell, said Putnam (who really didn't want to release his results, and tried long and hard to find another variable to explain the breakdown in community cohesion).<br /><br />This kind of thing needs to be talked about - how else can our 'broken society' be fixed?<br /><br />We won't fix it by ignoring what even a diversity-embracing researcher – one of the leading public intellectuals of our age – admits is a - the? - major factor in causing our 'broken society'.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-9780105842357962082009-08-28T10:23:38.516+01:002009-08-28T10:23:38.516+01:00Miss you? Obviously. I'll just have to have ...Miss you? Obviously. I'll just have to have another go at it.<br /><br /><br />Anyway. Powell's main disadvantage was a reliance on his audiences' ability to follow his logic and reasoning. Much of what he said was not properly understood and, as today, the print media were hungry for good copy. So his published views were often interpreted or corrupted by others.<br /><br />Stunning academic though he was, he was far too trusting. Perhaps Hannan is, as well.<br /><br />Nice to see decent debate here - notably from Sunder Katwala and Mark Clarke. But do we not think that things have moved on since those times? I'd agree that racism exists in our society, but many people have been surprised to note the insularity and downright hostility displayed by some immigrant communities. It seems that such groups as the Jews, the Italians, even the Lombards have been accepted more easily than those having different (non-white) skin colours. <br /><br />Would Powell have taken this stance if, say, the immigrants were white? Judging by his published views I think he would.Unsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08307116169498533047noreply@blogger.com