tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post2790422673226289136..comments2024-03-04T17:54:32.559+00:00Comments on Iain Dale's Diary: Just When You Thought the Police Couldn't Be Any More Stupid...Iain Dalehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03270146219458384372noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-51658107480660086532009-01-23T10:32:00.000+00:002009-01-23T10:32:00.000+00:00The Damien Green case was a scandal which raised s...The Damien Green case was a scandal which raised serious issues.<BR/><BR/>Kawczynski's circumstances are quite different and raise no important questions, save perhaps for that of "How do so many useless tossers get to become MPs".<BR/><BR/>It is otherwise an irrelevant distraction.<BR/><BR/>Re Green, there can be little doubt that the police have learned their lesson and the CPS will soon announce that no charges will be brought against him.Weygandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11359751090279735138noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-88584442955739445402009-01-22T22:51:00.000+00:002009-01-22T22:51:00.000+00:00No, have you?No, have you?Iain Dalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03270146219458384372noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-72531381406483309522009-01-22T22:47:00.000+00:002009-01-22T22:47:00.000+00:00Any updates on this, Iain?Any updates on this, Iain?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-56170582615384192822009-01-22T14:46:00.000+00:002009-01-22T14:46:00.000+00:00Interesting that Chris Grayling on R5L distanced t...Interesting that Chris Grayling on R5L distanced this from Damian Green affair and would not comment. Which is not like Chris Grayling if he perceives this as a winner for the Tories.<BR/><BR/>They seemed to be after some green inker corroboration and were not accusing the MP of the Tory Party or any civil servant or any such of any wrong doing.<BR/><BR/>Spinning it any other way is childish. Is Oily Johnson percahnce involved?Chris Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15679067503215414300noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-48369221800352367152009-01-22T13:38:00.000+00:002009-01-22T13:38:00.000+00:00Commons Speaker Michael Martin has rebuked a Conse...<B>Commons Speaker Michael Martin has rebuked a Conservative MP amid a fresh row over police entry to MPs' offices.<BR/><BR/>Daniel Kawczynski alleged that police had entered his Commons office without a search warrant demanding to see constituency correspondence.<BR/><BR/>But the Speaker said the officer had acted in "good faith" and said the MP should have checked his facts before "rushing to judgement" over the matter.</B><BR/><BR/>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/uk_politics/7844728.stm<BR/><BR/><BR/>I think the MP Kawczynski should publically apologise for his false accusations.Curbishlyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10448537046738555753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-34327323136885939022009-01-22T12:55:00.000+00:002009-01-22T12:55:00.000+00:00Hey, Julia, I think I like you: please do rage at ...Hey, Julia, I think I like you: please do rage at me for patronising you. And sorry if you thought I was accusing you of being a Conservative - I didn't mean to! My point stands about Conservatives needing to be clear whether they're for cooperation with the police or not. <BR/><BR/>And I didn't mention guidance, or anyone needing any.<BR/><BR/>Unsworth, I am sure, yes. It's not so much that the police can't answer back (they can to some extent, unlike civil servants who can't answer back at all even when ministers falsely blame things on them to protect themselves; and I'm sure you're right that they sometimes give improper briefings) as that no one really listens. For instance, most people still assume the search of Damian Green's office was somehow unlawful, because that's the impression they've been given by MPs. The police's version hasn't really got across.Carl Gardner, Head of Legalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11623620299558039098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-699386791559670092009-01-22T12:35:00.000+00:002009-01-22T12:35:00.000+00:00@ Head of LegalThe police have "less ability to an...@ Head of Legal<BR/><BR/>The police have "less ability to answer back". You quite sure about that?<BR/><BR/>Would that it were so. <BR/><BR/>Let's just remind ourselves of how many time the cops have got their retaliation in first, eh? Where do we start with that? Off-record briefing, anyone? Bungs for stories?<BR/><BR/>That said I do feel that this was a piece of arse-covering - by all parties.Unsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08307116169498533047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-88934009503089056582009-01-22T11:52:00.000+00:002009-01-22T11:52:00.000+00:00"seriously, I think Conservatives in particular ne...<I>"seriously, I think Conservatives in particular need to work out where their heads are on this. You may think when asked to help the police our instincts should be to think "Do I have to? How can I avoid it? What are my rights?" but I don't think that's the attitude the Conservative Party recommends, is it?"</I><BR/><BR/>I could care <I>less</I> what the Conservative Party recommends, on this or any other subject, frankly. <BR/><BR/>a) I'm not a member, and<BR/>b) I don't need a <I>political party</I>, of all things, to instruct me as to when to exercise my rights.<BR/><BR/>I guess it's your 'experience as a civil servant' that make you think people <I>need</I> such guidance, is it...?JuliaMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07844126589712842477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-30896254988402028712009-01-22T11:33:00.000+00:002009-01-22T11:33:00.000+00:00John, I think you're the one who's muddled - perha...John, I think you're the one who's muddled - perhaps you mean it's special procedure material in terms of PACE, which I've already said. It's not the subject of any relevant privilege, so there's nothing unwaivable. There might be privilege in the law of libel, but obviously that's not what we're talking about. I'm glad you agree with me that there's no Parliamentary privilege attaching to it, though!<BR/><BR/>Julia, it's not about rolling over, and if you knew me you'd know you're quite wrong about my attitude to authority. We're talking about two types of authority here, and perhaps it's my experience as a civil servant that makes me instinctively distrust and disbelieve authority figures with ready access to the media (ministers, MPs) when they so readily accuse lesser authority figures with less ability to answer back (civil servants, policemen) of wrongdoing.<BR/><BR/>And seriously, I think Conservatives in particular need to work out where their heads are on this. You may think when asked to help the police our instincts should be to think "Do I have to? How can I avoid it? What are my rights?" but I don't think that's the attitude the Conservative Party recommends, is it?<BR/><BR/>I accept there is an argument that MPs should respect confidentiality by asking the police to get an order before handing over a letter like this. Fair enough. But it's quite another matter to suggest it's wrong of the police to ask. As in the Greensearch affair, it seems to me that any failure here is at the Westminster end (the Speaker, Daniel Kawczynski) not the police's.Carl Gardner, Head of Legalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11623620299558039098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-83391759410452069822009-01-22T11:05:00.000+00:002009-01-22T11:05:00.000+00:00Head of Legal: "Andrew, is that really the attitud...Head of Legal: <I>"Andrew, is that really the attitude you think MPs should have to the police? If a member of the public said that, most MPs, certainly most Tories, would deplore it. "</I><BR/><BR/>It may suit <I>you</I> to roll over with your tail between your legs whenever you feel the lash of authority, but I can tell you most people are made of far sterner stuff. <BR/><BR/>Although not this particular MP, obviously...JuliaMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07844126589712842477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-40555222165420068532009-01-22T10:43:00.000+00:002009-01-22T10:43:00.000+00:00@Head of Legal"John, a lot of nonsense has already...@Head of Legal<BR/>"John, a lot of nonsense has already been talked about Parliamentary privilege in connection with Damian Green. But even if the letter were privileged, I don't see what's wrong with asking for it. If it were subject to privilege, then Kawczynski has voluntarily waived it."<BR/><BR/>You're confusing "parliamentary privilage" with "privilaged communications". This has nothing to do with parliamentary privilage, this is to do with the fact that any communication between you and your MP is a private matter and privilaged.<BR/><BR/>As such, the privilage is the constituents, not the MP's, so only the constituent is able to wave privilage, an MP can't.<BR/><BR/>You seem to be quite muddled here.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11900834283869111242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-43271588490432642162009-01-22T10:39:00.000+00:002009-01-22T10:39:00.000+00:00There's a post by Garbo on the Wardman Wire. Doesn...There's a post by Garbo on the Wardman Wire. <BR/><BR/>Doesn't agree with you either, Ian. Also call him a plonker!<BR/><BR/>http://www.mattwardman.com/blog/2009/01/22/daniel-kawczynski-the-tallest-plonker-in-parliament-by-garbo/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-83526156070663372462009-01-22T10:34:00.000+00:002009-01-22T10:34:00.000+00:00Oh, I certainly agree he's a plonker to be complai...Oh, I certainly agree he's a plonker to be complaining about it after the fact, making out the police did something wrong.<BR/><BR/>Of course we could all know exactly how the police behaved and whether Kawczynski is exaggerating if all this were videotaped, but for some reason people like Kawczynski would squeal if the police had brought a camera.Carl Gardner, Head of Legalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11623620299558039098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-52277716575406266692009-01-22T10:18:00.000+00:002009-01-22T10:18:00.000+00:00If he wanted to hand it over, that's fine.But he t...If he wanted to hand it over, that's fine.<BR/>But he then returned to the chamber to complain, and say that he was ashamed that he had handed it over.<BR/>So if he felt ashamed one has to assume he didn't really want to.<BR/>So yes, that makes him a plonker.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-31356955573720631152009-01-22T10:14:00.000+00:002009-01-22T10:14:00.000+00:00Andrew, is that really the attitude you think MPs ...Andrew, is that really the attitude you think MPs should have to the police? If a member of the public said that, most MPs, certainly most Tories, would deplore it. Dalesman, do you really think he was a "plonker" to hand it over? Why?<BR/><BR/>Matthew, there must be some doubt about whether the police could have obtained a warrant (in fact I don't think it's a warrant they'd need here, but an order for production of special procedure material). I won't quote complicated chapter and verse unless you want it, but it looks to me as though the relevant conditions in PACE may not have been satisfied, perhaps because the offence being investigated wasn't serious enough, or perhaps because a judge wouldn't think an order appropriate as they hadn't tried simply asking (although a judge might now think an order appropriate I suppose just because of the Speaker's protocol). <BR/><BR/>I don't want to descend into legalism: the real point is that there's nothing wrong with the police asking for something. The question for MPs is whether they want to adopt an attitude of "I know my rights" truculence towards the police (if need be frustrating the police's attempts to protect them), or whether they want to practice what they preach to the public. <BR/><BR/>I really wish people would focus on the scandalous <B>arrest</B> of Damian Green and Chris Galley, rather than on this search and warrant nonsense.Carl Gardner, Head of Legalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11623620299558039098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-37716716363390561822009-01-22T10:11:00.000+00:002009-01-22T10:11:00.000+00:00The police didn't carry out a search, or so it see...The police didn't carry out a search, or so it seems.<BR/>They asked to see letters, and this plonker just handed them over!<BR/><BR/>Not only that, but he then went to the chamber to tell everyone that he was ashamed he had done so.<BR/><BR/>Not fit to be an MP!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-82756135184289003012009-01-22T09:36:00.000+00:002009-01-22T09:36:00.000+00:00No doubt the police have been set a new target by ...No doubt the police have been set a new target by the government for arresting a certain number of MPs each month.Letters From A Toryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14612766550608940053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-6166491207552989062009-01-22T08:19:00.000+00:002009-01-22T08:19:00.000+00:00Agree that it sounds very much like it's the MP th...Agree that it sounds very much like it's the MP that's in the wrong here and is making a fuss after the fact. Stupid boy.<BR/><BR/>As was said of the Serjeant at Arms before, anyone who's ever watched TV knows that the first thing you say when Plod comes-a-knockin' is "Have you got a warrant?", not, "Do come in and here's what you want". Doh!Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02157150056075441764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-25114778849734162652009-01-22T08:18:00.000+00:002009-01-22T08:18:00.000+00:00Iain - You're a reasonable man. On reflection, do ...Iain - You're a reasonable man. On reflection, do you really think the police should have sought a warrant for documentation that a Member of Parliament provided voluntarily when asked? As a matter of law, is a warrant justified if the information can be obtained voluntarily?Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16526211029550723258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-69795433989071483192009-01-22T08:14:00.000+00:002009-01-22T08:14:00.000+00:00Actually, I think the Sky guy said it best: "At s...Actually, I think the Sky guy <A HREF="http://blogs.news.sky.com/boultonandco/Post:d91f97f5-ce6e-4c81-8cf5-2efdc2cf1324" REL="nofollow">said it best</A>: <I>"At six feet eight and a half inches, Mr Kawczynski is the tallest MP.<BR/><BR/>His comments diminish him."</I>JuliaMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07844126589712842477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-8888091723804182582009-01-22T08:02:00.000+00:002009-01-22T08:02:00.000+00:00"This is absolutely ridiculous. Surely Daniel Kawc...<I>"This is absolutely ridiculous. Surely Daniel Kawczynski has to take full responsibility? "</I><BR/><BR/>You'd think so, wouldn't you? <BR/><BR/>But it seems 'responsibility' isn't just a dirty word for NuLab politicians...<BR/><BR/>And they wonder why voting is declining!JuliaMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07844126589712842477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-9591385640539464062009-01-22T07:30:00.000+00:002009-01-22T07:30:00.000+00:00This is absolutely ridiculous. Surely Daniel Kawcz...This is absolutely ridiculous. Surely Daniel Kawczynski has to take full responsibility? You can't invite someone to a meeting, give them what they ask for and then complain that a) they came and b) you gave it to them.<BR/><BR/>That is absurd behaviour by the MP.Matthew Cainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15476895317637990551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-66741538626153533462009-01-22T07:29:00.000+00:002009-01-22T07:29:00.000+00:00Nope. Sorry. Dnaiel is another Tory MP. Brown won'...Nope. Sorry. Dnaiel is another Tory MP. Brown won't give a sh!t then. Probably throw away the key in fact.not an economisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08679610738502901666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-65618599375820721202009-01-22T07:06:00.000+00:002009-01-22T07:06:00.000+00:00Is this person a Labour MP? If so Brown's govt may...Is this person a Labour MP? If so Brown's govt may actually make a proper response this time.not an economisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08679610738502901666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-42781704130534928692009-01-22T05:01:00.000+00:002009-01-22T05:01:00.000+00:00Surely the time has come to force out both the Spe...Surely the time has come to force out both the Speaker and Sergeant-at-ArmsStasihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02927922804441410389noreply@blogger.com