tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post1587975355684984983..comments2024-03-04T17:54:32.559+00:00Comments on Iain Dale's Diary: Beware of Politicians Talking About GunsIain Dalehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03270146219458384372noreply@blogger.comBlogger70125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-51326355382183403962010-06-04T15:48:51.820+01:002010-06-04T15:48:51.820+01:00@James; In switzerland all men between 18 years (I...@James; In switzerland all men between 18 years (I think) and 60 are in a national militia. trained in the use of arms and keeping an assault rifle and ammunition at home. There are not regular shootings nor massacres over there are there? and the burglary rate is pretty low too.<br /><br />The laws here on gun ownership are strick, with all but single shot pistols banned outright. I think this is wrong. I also think that access to guns via the licensing regs is tough enough as it stands.Dr Evilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00176521760477086914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-53222159002067435962010-06-04T13:45:42.867+01:002010-06-04T13:45:42.867+01:00Chalcedon, your argument is even more ludicrous.
...Chalcedon, your argument is even more ludicrous.<br /><br />If it was the case that increasing access to weapons reduced the likelihood of maniacs going on shooting sprees we would expect to see far fewer of these sorts of incidents in countries where gun ownership is more commonplace.<br /><br />Like the USA for example.<br /><br />Do you think that is the case?Indyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04383904151475839441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-49901400457966415952010-06-04T12:01:26.959+01:002010-06-04T12:01:26.959+01:00@James, re: your joke about an arms fair in Whiteh...@James, re: your joke about an arms fair in Whitehaven, that believe it or not is exactly what happened in the US following the slaughter at Columbine - the gun lobby wanted to set up a show there! I recall a local judge stopped it on breach of public order grounds. The sheer breathtaking de-humanized robo-mentality of the gun-pushers at times like this is what takes the breath away.DespairingLiberalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02903904463236135611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-3114791094532225022010-06-04T11:53:50.408+01:002010-06-04T11:53:50.408+01:00Chalcedon, you repeat the usual argument that if e...Chalcedon, you repeat the usual argument that if everyone were armed, there would be fewer shootings. Apart from the obvious fallacy that this simply increases the number of guns in the hands of unstable people.<br /><br />The best example that this is demonstrably false is the US, where most killings involve children obtaining parental handguns and shooting themselves, each other or their own parents. In the US, few citizens are sufficiently trained to combat muggers, etc and there are also very many shootings of people by criminals where the deceased were seeking to defend themselves by drawing a weapon. In addition, because so many people have weapons, the police frequently shoot innocent people in situations where their moves were misinterpreted as being about to draw a weapon.<br /><br />The sad truth is that many ordinary people cannot be trusted to have such dangerous and lethal weapons, whose purpose is that they are designed to kill. This is different to things like cars or bikes.<br /><br />One key point about Whitehaven is why it was felt by the authorities that a taxi driver needed a sniper rifle. The basic question is - what was he intending to do with it? What was he going to snipe? It is illegal for example to kill most animals and nobody is allowed to just go onto land in the Lakes and shoot deer or birds. What was the sniper rifle for? What was at the back of his mind when he obtained it and what is at the back of the minds of others who hold such weapons?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11955001532169324904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-23494077465540948432010-06-04T11:12:38.027+01:002010-06-04T11:12:38.027+01:00If more people had ready access to guns, especiall...If more people had ready access to guns, especially hand guns, this crazy act would never have gotten out of hand as someone would have shot the bastard early on in his kiling spree. The UK has some of the most draconian legislation in the world regarding gun ownership. This is far, far too strict IMO. The Bill of Rights 1689 clearly states our right t bear arms. This has been seriously eroded after events like Hungerford and Dunblane. These are thankfully rare events. Funny how no-one bats an eyelid if it is gangsters involved in a shoot out. People should have more freedom regarding gun responsible ownership.Dr Evilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00176521760477086914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-45001843643570369252010-06-04T11:06:11.988+01:002010-06-04T11:06:11.988+01:00JuliaM I think your arguments are really unconvinc...JuliaM I think your arguments are really unconvincing.<br /><br />Yes a stamp collector might be a cover for money laundering. Yes a train spotter might be a terrorist in disguise. So might a lollipop lady for that matter.<br /><br />But those are silly points.<br /><br />There is nothing inherently dangerous about collecting stamps or watching trains. Stamps are not a lethal weapon, neither are binoculars.<br /><br />A more valid comparison with access to guns would be with access to something that was potentially equally as lethal.<br /><br />Poison for example. There are quite strict rules which apply to the purchase of poison. People are not allowed to buy poison without demonstrating why they need it. <br /><br />And sport would not be a valid reason. We don't have rat poisoning championships, do we? Though I dare say some people might quite enjoy that.Indyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04383904151475839441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-66632661755283606492010-06-04T10:40:42.381+01:002010-06-04T10:40:42.381+01:00It was so refreshing to have a considered and sens...It was so refreshing to have a considered and sensible response from DC. Not a jerking knee in sight. How refreshing.<br /><br />It's an oddity isn't it, that a major incident seems to occur soon after a new Prime Minster takes office?Ritahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11677675701600452304noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-59734395956051386122010-06-04T09:40:50.985+01:002010-06-04T09:40:50.985+01:00Yes Steve, he was deranged, but without guns he wo...Yes Steve, he was deranged, but without guns he wouldn't have been able to wipe out a lot of people so quickly and easily.<br /><br />All those of you going on about cars - how many deliberate mass-murders have been committed using cars recently that you've heard of? Anywhere in the world?<br /><br />What the gun sales lobby can't answer is why ordinary people interested in using guns for sport can't use them at controlled clubs. Why exactly do they need them at home? Other than perhaps to occassionally kill another human being maybe?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11955001532169324904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-84599967544257115402010-06-04T09:36:55.082+01:002010-06-04T09:36:55.082+01:00What's really disgusting is the clamour from t...What's really disgusting is the clamour from the gun lobby at times like this - can't they shut up for a bit? And why exactly are you joining in Iain?<br /><br />Note that Cameron is using the phrase about there not being a "switch" in people's heads - this is straight from the US gun lobby hymn sheet. I hadn't realised the extent to which the small arms industry lobbyists had penetrated UK Conservatives.<br /><br />Perhaps some of them would like to set up an arms show in Whitehaven? Just to complete the point?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11955001532169324904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-59134321730419392462010-06-04T08:31:13.384+01:002010-06-04T08:31:13.384+01:00It's true, as many have pointed out, that trag...It's true, as many have pointed out, that tragedies such as these are often inexplicable and therefore harder to anticipate and prevent. <br /><br />It's also true that someone bent on mass killing will find a way. Nevertheless, a gun is a unique weapon in that a man who is armed is superhuman in a way that a man (or woman) with a knife or club is not, and guns will have a special fascination for the inadequate and mentally unstable as well as for the genuine marksman. It is interesting to note that the 'spree' killers at Hungerford, Dunblane and now Cumbria, held their guns legally. So checks must be rigorous. Why, for example, was Derrick Bird, with a criminal record for theft, allowed a licence? Anyone convicted of even a non-violent crime should not be allowed this privilege and responsibility.<br /><br />As for those who advocate guns for all: where guns are prevalent, many innocent bystanders are killed in police shoot outs with armed criminals. Many householders attempting to defend themselves with a gun often have it turned on them by the criminal. And just look at the statistics: where gun control is lax or non-existent, gun violence, whether murder or homicide, is high. Where gun control is tight, such as the UK, gun violence is low. Believe it or not, we have a very low rate of gun crime, and murder generally, compared with many other countries. (Don't quote Switzerland, where all hold guns and gun crime is low - they hold guns, but no ammunition.)Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03809326553625044519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-71773537484979363132010-06-04T00:55:36.025+01:002010-06-04T00:55:36.025+01:00People with jerky knees should exercise restraint,...People with jerky knees should exercise restraint, for what they are really doing is laying the ground for yet another curtailment of individual freedom.<br /><br />I traveled over about two dozen speed bumps on one journey today. These are put there, not, as I believed to furnish my garage with a regular source of income, but to deter speeders. Surely, the solution would be to mete out massive fines or punishments, rather than make the rest of us, suffer?<br /><br />It is the same with all legislation that panders to the lowest common denominator, the scum and the loonies of this world. Once every twenty years or so, someone goes beserk with a rifle. A tragedy to the loved ones of the victims, but not a reason to punish us all.Wrinkled Weaselhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05291551539649118631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-37149464955153875522010-06-04T00:27:05.620+01:002010-06-04T00:27:05.620+01:00Happily most politicians I've heard have robus...Happily most politicians I've heard have robustly resisted the temptation to call for a change in the law. Even Diane Abbot, not famed for her common sense on such subjects, didn't take that view.<br /><br />The shadow Home Secretary was asked a dumb question by a BBC interviewer: how come a taxi driver had a firearms certificate? He sensibly replied that there was no reason at all why not, any more than if someone were a postman or an MP.<br /><br />Despite very restrictive laws on gun ownership in this country, we do have a serious and growing problem with illegally held weapons. It is this very real problem that needs to be addressed, and not by making more laws.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02072015658089535103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-70014528880119472562010-06-03T23:50:32.289+01:002010-06-03T23:50:32.289+01:00There are also calls for all police to be armed, b...There are also calls for all police to be armed, but armed police wouldn't have stopped him, because they weren't there - although there are armed police at Sellafield.<br /><br />Cameron's response is the right one - wait and, he says<br /><br /><i>we should not leap to knee-jerk conclusions on what should be done on the regulatory front</i>Mrs Rigbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02896765062231309345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-9469373891467406972010-06-03T23:46:46.012+01:002010-06-03T23:46:46.012+01:00Thankfully these sorts of incidents are rare in th...Thankfully these sorts of incidents are rare in the UK. I think this is because we have the balance about right and our gun controls are working reasonably well.<br />Looking at the USA and Finland, where gun ownership is much less regulated, the number of incidents recorded are unacceptably high.<br />We should be guided by the police if any extra controls are needed, not politicians.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06810788783886456639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-648937749654435602010-06-03T23:02:49.769+01:002010-06-03T23:02:49.769+01:00The owner of the gun licences had a criminal recor...The owner of the gun licences had a criminal record. Surely committing a criminal offence should immediately bring an end to all licenses to possess guns.Tapestryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17267094484651413428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-70271961770807488902010-06-03T21:50:30.841+01:002010-06-03T21:50:30.841+01:00I don't think it would be possible to make gun...I don't think it would be possible to make gun laws tighter. Had citizens owned guns, this eejit might have been killed before he had concluded his rampage. At the very least, we need all our police armed routinely.Frugal Dougalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07459572116047155640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-61578233034973573002010-06-03T21:46:34.505+01:002010-06-03T21:46:34.505+01:00Well said, Iain.
I wondered how long it was going ...Well said, Iain.<br />I wondered how long it was going to be before some idiot politician came on the airwaves calling for stricter gun control, and sure enough, it wasn't long and OF COURSE it was a socialist. <br />Why can they never accept that you can't legislate for everything? That you can't legislate for all human behaviour?<br />People do bad things and you try to prevent this as much as you can but you can't prevent everything and you just have to live with this. To try and do so restricts freedom to an unacceptable degree. Which is exactly what socialism is all about.Mehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08184880363878458929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-35742902962202407672010-06-03T19:59:51.418+01:002010-06-03T19:59:51.418+01:00Well, some of the comments here have convinced me ...Well, some of the comments here have convinced me that there is a parallel universe, and I'm not part of it. As with nuclear weapons, we cannot un-invent guns or rifles. I also agree that we have very strict laws to control the use of firearms. <br /><br />As for Indy's comment: 'There may be any number of reasons why someone might validly need a gun - but I suggest sport is not one of them.' Maybe Bird forgot to put 'killing people' on his application? I can't remember whether or not I had to give a reason for wanting a shotgun certificate, but sport is a very valid reason! Or putting food on the table. Tip: it's better to make sure it's dead first. I do find clay pigeons a bit crunchy though.Slim Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15517086752599154329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-33468167046025537572010-06-03T19:44:46.997+01:002010-06-03T19:44:46.997+01:00Rarely I am moved to write comment on your blog th...Rarely I am moved to write comment on your blog these days, but I am doing so today because I agree so wholeheartedly with what you have said. The events in Cumbria <i>are</i> in explicable and no amount of legislation could prevent such tragedies happening in future.<br /><br />@Will (11:38am)<br /><br />You write:<br /><br /><i>"[I]f there were 0 guns on Britain's streets, these tragedies wouldn't happen."</i><br /><br />This is logically correct but patently absurd nonetheless. How would you practically remove every single gun from Britain's streets? <br /><br />If there were no illegal drugs on Britain's streets, abuse of cocaine and heroin wouldn't occur, either.Thomas Rossettihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16242906347478972349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-4625939456451172142010-06-03T19:14:09.111+01:002010-06-03T19:14:09.111+01:00It is amazing that while driving the individual di...It is amazing that while driving the individual didn't run anybody over.<br /><br />On average 2,700 people are killed each year on the roads. I think cars should be banned.........<br /><br />The individual was deranged. But how many commenting here have used a mobile phone or took to the wheel after a drink? <br /><br />Hammers are used in more murders than any other implement. Perhaps these should be banned too?<br /><br />And as some have mentioned what about illegal arms?<br /><br />My point is death should be mourned. The method is immaterial.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13440640503681625170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-33304020408760197302010-06-03T19:11:38.216+01:002010-06-03T19:11:38.216+01:00The legality, or lack thereof, of a gun has little...The legality, or lack thereof, of a gun has little to do with its eventual use. And furthermore, if you banned guns, angry people would sadly just seek out a different weapon, such as a car.<br /><br />We already have some of the tougher gun laws in the western world and it is rare that those with the licenses (e.g. gamekeepers, farmers, etc.) are the ones causing the trouble. <br /><br />You cannot eliminate these sad and sorry events. You can only try to comfort the victims' families and ensure society that these events are rare indeed.WCHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09455852345360588391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-78108322088430109012010-06-03T19:04:35.367+01:002010-06-03T19:04:35.367+01:00"if there were 0 guns on Britain's street..."if there were 0 guns on Britain's streets, these tragedies wouldn't happen"<br /><br />Nonsense. The majority of problems lie with illegal guns and they will always be there. In any case, may people in the countryside NEED guns to use as part of their livelihood eg killing verminCynichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04852867933348403214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-68415493027977399072010-06-03T18:58:31.889+01:002010-06-03T18:58:31.889+01:00It might be interesting to find the number of peop...It might be interesting to find the number of people killed by legal guns and compare with the number of people killed by police cars.<br /><br />Perhaps we should ban all police cars?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12073019640077080501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-78136828341649521342010-06-03T18:56:22.728+01:002010-06-03T18:56:22.728+01:00When guns are outlawed - only outlaws will have gu...When guns are outlawed - only outlaws will have guns.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12073019640077080501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-12658502562918896392010-06-03T18:54:01.703+01:002010-06-03T18:54:01.703+01:00JuliaM said...
"The problem is, Iain, id the...JuliaM said...<br /><br />"The problem is, Iain, id they stay silent, that leaves the field wide open for the likes of Paul Squires and his ridiculous ideas to ban ammunition instead!"<br /><br />I once had some silly PC inspect my guns, just after returning from a competition in the US. She made a huge fuss that the 1000 rounds I had put on my certificate renewal was now reduced to about 50 rounds. <br /><br />Despite explaining about the competition, she said she was duty bound to report this infraction to her Sergeant. I then explained that by the time she was back at the station I would already have made another 1000 rounds for the next competition. She was so out of her depth it was laughable.<br /><br />She admitted that she hoped to join the firearms unit - I kid you not.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12073019640077080501noreply@blogger.com