tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post116428274528182439..comments2024-03-04T17:54:32.559+00:00Comments on Iain Dale's Diary: Relative Poverty Isn't An AbsoluteIain Dalehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03270146219458384372noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1164662009461587592006-11-27T21:13:00.000+00:002006-11-27T21:13:00.000+00:00It is one thing for the Conservatives to steal bac...It is one thing for the Conservatives to steal back New Labour's free market clothing, but it is quite another for it to steal Old Labour clothing on the issue of "relative poverty". What will be seen as the mechanism for overcoming relative poverty ? One clear avenue is a move to progressive forms of taxation. Will this be pushed in the Conservative Party and might we soon see the formation of the equivalent of the Socialist Campaign Group?Harry Barneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01833380054575757928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1164527706426350902006-11-26T07:55:00.000+00:002006-11-26T07:55:00.000+00:00ispystrangers, 1:09pm, got in ahead of me, the tin...ispystrangers, 1:09pm, got in ahead of me, the tinker. A 'media salary' is huge - not a median salary at all. Which causes me to think: does anyone know how much a Dimbleby pulls in a year? Or Mdm Toynbee, for that matter?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1164353838317694032006-11-24T07:37:00.000+00:002006-11-24T07:37:00.000+00:00Verity,You're right to say that the socialists hav...Verity,<BR/><BR/>You're right to say that the socialists have not, can not and probably will not recognise the same basic spark that HRH Charlie did. But can you iamgine what a clusterf**k they'd make of it if they did?<BR/><BR/>The Prince's Trust raises and then donates money fast and with minimal bureaucracy. Any statist attempt to mimic this would involve at least three ministers, ten junior ministers, a London office with a staff of a couple of thousand, regional offices, local offices. Then you'd have the Better Giving Agency just to make sure the department functioned according to ever changing targets. And of course each office would need minority inclusivity officers attached from other departments. Cultural and diversity trainers. Safety officers. Lifestyle guidance councillors. Worklife Balance Co-ordinators. Oh and the Treasury would impose an auditting department just to make sure that no one was nicking the tea money.<BR/><BR/>They'd spend ten times what HRH raises simply on departmental running costs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1164328667140312822006-11-24T00:37:00.000+00:002006-11-24T00:37:00.000+00:00I think an interesting point here is, although the...I think an interesting point here is, although the Blair government has destroyed so much aspiration and ambition by the deadening effect of a communist education and leaching ambition out of young minds, the one person, other than public schools and independent schools, furthering the cause of entrepreneurship is Prince Charles.<BR/><BR/>He's worked away at his Prince's Trust for decades, raised tens (maybe it's hundreds) of millions by giving talks and attending luncheons and dinners where his presence produced large donations - as well as donating his own money, personally sits in on many of the interviews with young people and reads over their business plans, and has distributed vast amounts of cash to help young people with viable business ideas but no bank credit, to get started. Sometimes only tiny amounts are needed for someone with an idea and confidence in himself/herself to get going on a successful enterprise and making it a success.<BR/><BR/>Interesting that the socialists don't understand the drive of human ambition and aspiration and a prince of the realm does.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1164303259147904482006-11-23T17:34:00.000+00:002006-11-23T17:34:00.000+00:00It's not for you guys, but there is a left wing cr...It's not for you guys, but there is a left wing critique of the relativist view of poverty.<BR/><BR/>This is that by endlessly raising the line as to what is poverty it ensures that the West continues to have an imperial and exploitative relationship with the less developed world. We become concerned for people who, in the grand scheme of things, are actually quite well off compared to the rest of the world.<BR/><BR/>In order to help them, resources are diverted from much more needy places. This is because there is a ceiling on how much redistribution can be done. Gordon may have raised the limit, but there is still a limit.<BR/><BR/>In this scenario, in order to sustain the UK level of prosperity we will require ever cheaper third world goods in order to subsidise the increased generosity to the newly defined UK poor.<BR/><BR/>The gap between rich and poor will become wider and the need for charity greater - not the preferred solutionAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1164301978422686312006-11-23T17:12:00.000+00:002006-11-23T17:12:00.000+00:00Iain posts: "Of course there are children, and in...Iain posts: "Of course there are children, and indeed many adults, who are impoverished. No one denies that, and everyone would agree that it is a prime duty of the State to lift those people out of poverty,"<BR/><BR/>No, Iain. The prime duty of the state is to get out of the way and let the wealth creators do what they do best - create jobs.<BR/><BR/>The socialists have not only destroyed the social fabric of this country, but they have robbed the poorer sector of aspirations. Rubbish education, no apprenticeships, no social skills,no understanding of what holds a civil society together - i,e, share values and a sense of community, no small business opportunities. This communist garbage needs to be taken to a huge tip and dumped wholesale. Anything less than completely discarding this philosophy is robbing young people of an opportunity to get a foothold and better themselves.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1164301706953404482006-11-23T17:08:00.000+00:002006-11-23T17:08:00.000+00:00"What is your view of children who don't get to go..."What is your view of children who don't get to go on a summer holiday"<BR/><BR/>I haven't been on a summer holiday the past few years and it hasn't made me feel poor. Nor do I own Sky TV, an X-Box or go swimming regularly.<BR/><BR/>Why exactly are these people in relative poverty entitled to our money? What have they done to earn it? Why should everyone be expected to own Sky TV? Why should I be forced to hand money over to these people?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1164301266857430332006-11-23T17:01:00.000+00:002006-11-23T17:01:00.000+00:00If we are living in a meritocracy (as Tony Blair w...If we are living in a meritocracy (as Tony Blair wishes), there will be a group of people in the bottom decile of society struggling to survive without merit!Snafuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16069053283344578792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1164299097801792842006-11-23T16:24:00.000+00:002006-11-23T16:24:00.000+00:00It is not a good idea for the UK to travel at the ...It is not a good idea for the UK to travel at the pace of the slowest camel. We need a fast camel train and rehab for those that cannot keep up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1164298417585674802006-11-23T16:13:00.000+00:002006-11-23T16:13:00.000+00:00Anonymous @ 3:35pm:A couple of years ago I started...Anonymous @ 3:35pm:<BR/><BR/>A couple of years ago I started my first job on 12k pa. <BR/><BR/>Grew up never having a birthday party, the shiny new toys or the summer holiday.<BR/><BR/>I have never considered myself poor.<BR/><BR/>I may never earn enough to own a property of my own. Am I poor?<BR/><BR/>In my view, poverty is not lacking all the nice things in life - it is the lack of human necessities.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1164297833043818312006-11-23T16:03:00.000+00:002006-11-23T16:03:00.000+00:0016 Words-My home was a basement and when I passed ...16 Words-My home was a basement and when I passed it in the company of friends I would not acknowledge it. <BR/><BR/><BR/> Looxury<BR/>My house was a birds nest and we shared it with a smelly old crow. My clothes were made of twigs and =all I had for breakfast was an acorn with some spit . We were so poor that my parents had to feed us to each other to stay alive. I dreamt of the day we had a basement I used to sigh and yearn at its cheerful crackling naked bulb .You youngsters don`t know your bornAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1164296561492465982006-11-23T15:42:00.000+00:002006-11-23T15:42:00.000+00:00We can debate until the cows come home at what lev...We can debate until the cows come home at what level of income a person becomes impoverished. Perhaps today that point is 40% of the national average income I dunno. But I'm sure tommorrow, or next year, it will be a different number. Sadly La Polla seems to be implying that 40% is a constant as permanent as Pi.<BR/><BR/>As for the caravan analogy (I prefer convoys myself - far more redolent of Britain at her best) Polly's assumption is that the fast camels will always be fast and the slow ones will always be slow. Any study of social history will show that this is simplistic and so overflowing with wrongness that we are in danger of getting stains on the carpet.<BR/><BR/>Certainly some people, a very small number, do remain at the front all their lives - so bloody what? Good luck to them. And some, an equally small number, remain forever stuck right at the back - these people do need a helping hand. <BR/><BR/>But for the vast majority, we bimble along in the middle of the crowd. Sometimes we are a bit ahead of most and sometimes we lag a bit behind. What these people need isn't more "help"; that actually hinders social mobility. They just need to be left alone to carry on at their own pace. <BR/><BR/>To continue the caravan analogy (badly - I really do better with boats) we need to design lead reins we can attach to the few genuinely slow camels and then attach them to the largest number of the other camels possible so that each is dragging only a small extra load. To keep the load small we have to learn to detatch the reins once the slow camels are back up to speed. <BR/><BR/>And the racing camels? Let them race ahead. Some might get to journey's end faster, but a lot will burn out and a lot more will be picked off by the bandits along the way. If they are lucky camels they will be gathered up by the caravan as it bimbles past them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1164296401452976852006-11-23T15:40:00.000+00:002006-11-23T15:40:00.000+00:00The Tories are suggesting that they will combat cl...The Tories are suggesting that they will combat climate change by introducing energy taxes. These will fall disproportionately on the poor.<BR/><BR/>The Tories are suggesting that relative poverty is a problem that will be the first priority of the Government i.e. wealth should be more evenly spread.<BR/><BR/>How will introducing regressive taxes reduce income inequality?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1164296147330283332006-11-23T15:35:00.000+00:002006-11-23T15:35:00.000+00:00Iain, this is bo!!*cks and you know it. Poverty ca...Iain, this is bo!!*cks and you know it. Poverty cannot simply be defined as not having enough food in our country. It is about being 'left behind'. You talk patronisingly about people earning £12k not being poor. <BR/><BR/>Would you like to live on that ? Oh no, I forgot, you see yourself as a 'winner'. My father was an honest, decent, hardworking postman. Does that make him a loser ? <BR/><BR/>What is your view of children who don't get to go on a summer holiday or don't have enough money to go swimming or have their friends round for a birthday party ? <BR/><BR/>Of course you won't see that thru the tinted windows in your Audi, not that you would give a shit anyway. <BR/><BR/>I used to, I'm disgraced to say, think like you. Those people who failed the eleven-plus, well they were just the thickies who didn't deserve better. Then I grew up. <BR/><BR/>About time you did too. Get a life.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1164292616308148252006-11-23T14:36:00.000+00:002006-11-23T14:36:00.000+00:00Toynbee today in the Guardian advocates the minimu...Toynbee today in the Guardian advocates the minimum wage as the best way to speed up the tail of the camel train. She says that all wages must be a living wage able to support a family.<BR/><BR/>She would cause a surge in unemployment by ignoring the market to such an extent, and that would consign millions to the dustbin of society, impoverishing the very children she claims she wasnts to help. <BR/><BR/>A living family-suporting wage is nearer £9 an hour than £5.25 - the current level of the minimum wage. Probably 3 million jobs would be lost overnight sending Britain's unemployment to 20%.<BR/><BR/>While we all love Polly's imagery, we must try to keep one eye on reality.<BR/><BR/>Of course she is on a high with all the flattery and attention coming her way today. Poor thing. She is one of the least loved of all columnists. A bit of love from David Cameron's team must have melted a portion of her iced over brain. <BR/><BR/>As Boris points out in the Torygraph, she is as unable to connect her rhetoric with her own reality. It is not surprising she wants the rest of us to join her in her world of make believe. It must be so lonely.<BR/><BR/>If she wants employers to raise living standards, which is what employers do better than any politican, don't bury them in red tape. Get out of the way and let them get on with building the real society Toynbee's pen can only dream of.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1164292404763883862006-11-23T14:33:00.000+00:002006-11-23T14:33:00.000+00:00What about poverty of aspiration? The reality of ...What about poverty of aspiration? The reality of student loans is putting a lot of bright working class pupils off the idea of University. In contrast many of my friends' children see it as their "right" to go to University, despite mediocre exam results and a lack of interest and application in their school work, simply because their parents can afford to support them for three years. <BR/>As far as I can see from the people around me, the educational achievment gap has widened enormously along class lines in the last five to ten years.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1164291244879072402006-11-23T14:14:00.000+00:002006-11-23T14:14:00.000+00:00I think Polly Toynbee's analogy is poor. A better ...I think Polly Toynbee's analogy is poor. A better one would be mice running inside a wheel. On the other hand I love Iain's definition of losers as people who earn 40% of "the media wage".Whispering Wallshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03410656699815679312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1164291152888427832006-11-23T14:12:00.000+00:002006-11-23T14:12:00.000+00:00I thought when the tories lost in 1997, and seeing...I thought when the tories lost in 1997, and seeing the aftermath in the party's lack of direction, that I was seeing a rerun of what happened in France in 1981 to the right, after Mitterrand won.<BR/><BR/>I just did not see that it would go all the way to the "fracture sociale" which won Chirac his election in 1995.<BR/><BR/>Maybe that is what the plan is, albeit 10 years later ?<BR/><BR/>I mean Chirac being a role model to the tories ! If that is not irony for you, I do not know what is !<BR/><BR/>That said, the problems I see with Clark's comments is that somehow he is conveying the idea that the conservatives never cared for the poor, which I think is wrong. He also conveys the idea that whatever labour/nulabour thinks and does in that area is right, when it clearly is not.<BR/><BR/>That somehow the tories really are the nasty party, which in some areas is not entirely wrong (immigration comes to mind, but labour/nulabour is even worse), and that they must apologize for that.<BR/><BR/>In other words, the new tories are a creation of labour/nulabour, on the latter's terms.<BR/><BR/>That is the scary thing.<BR/><BR/>Incidentally, I am humbled to be quoted on your blog.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1164290792693360022006-11-23T14:06:00.000+00:002006-11-23T14:06:00.000+00:00If you are seen dead in a BMW, you shouldn't have ...If you are seen dead in a BMW, you shouldn't have been driving one in the first place. They really are the ultimate machine. However, the Audi is considered by some to be better. I am living in relative poverty at the moment, and I got caught by the Speed Camera tax twice. Six penalty points within 2 years means I have to retake the driving test! I cannot afford the whole unfairness of this measure.<BR/><BR/>Even poorer is Lily the Drink. She came over from Latvia. Because it is one of the A8 States, and she did not manage to stay in employment for 12 months, she is unable to claim jobseeker's allowance and housing benefit and council tax benefit. No job, no money, in a capitalist society, this is absolute poverty. How is she expected to survive?<BR/><BR/>The argument is that we cannot allow those from the A8 States to be a burden on our State. However, when Tony Blair agreed with George W. Bush to go to war on Iraq, I don't recall him asking Gordon Brown if there was any money in the war chest for this private war of his. These wasted billions could have been better spent at home.<BR/><BR/>The streets of London maybe paved with gold, North of Watford I can see that very soon it will be hand carts going around and the shout of "bring out your dead!" as the starving poor fail to survive this Winter of our discontent...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1164290299435777962006-11-23T13:58:00.000+00:002006-11-23T13:58:00.000+00:00I'm sure you're right, etzel pangloss. I came acro...I'm sure you're right, etzel pangloss. I came across a Churchill quote recently (it might have been on here) which summed up nicely what Toynbee and here ilk are about:<BR/><BR/>"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."<BR/><BR/>Ms Toynbee is, of course, in an ideal position to be immune to the "misery".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1164288704764240342006-11-23T13:31:00.001+00:002006-11-23T13:31:00.001+00:00"Among families with children – and compared to th..."Among families with children – and compared to the mid-1990s – there are a quarter of million more individuals living in households with less that 40% of average income. "<BR/><BR/>Would you define someone who said such a thing as someone who "redefined the word to include anyone who is earning less that 60% of the median wage. "?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1164288680943673332006-11-23T13:31:00.000+00:002006-11-23T13:31:00.000+00:00Ms. Toynbee might not want those at the back to be...Ms. Toynbee might not want those at the back to become detached, but I bet she doesn't want them to overtake those in front either.Etzel Panglosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03406597168530012673noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1164287820672707382006-11-23T13:17:00.000+00:002006-11-23T13:17:00.000+00:00Iain, in 1990, 25% of children living below the po...Iain, in 1990, 25% of children living below the poverty line in the EU lived in the UK. You can argue about the difference between relative and absolute poverty - but you cannot seriously believe that these children enjoyed good enough life chances.<BR/><BR/>As for Mr Long - I took your argument seriously until you said you would vote UKIP.<BR/><BR/>I believe in meritocracy, you don't.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1164287655669876382006-11-23T13:14:00.000+00:002006-11-23T13:14:00.000+00:00Off topic, Nick Clarke has died.Off topic, Nick Clarke has died.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1164287558984192042006-11-23T13:12:00.000+00:002006-11-23T13:12:00.000+00:00Excellent to the see the unsung genius that is JT....Excellent to the see the unsung genius that is JT. As usual however I am going to continue not singing his praises.<BR/><BR/>No relative poverty is the only sort of poverty that matters it is absolutely no good telling someone who sees a small section of society keeping all the goodies that they are actually better of than the match girls whose faces fell of because of industrial phosphorous.. Conspicuous amongst the privileged , are people like Polly Toynbee , her public school children her wealthy connections , her home in Italy .. but never mind.<BR/><BR/>By “absolute poverty” the worst sort of social disadvantage can theoretically be justified because of the general fact of economic growth. It has been a very worrying trend that during NuLabs destruction of the working class that a new sort of disconnected underclass has developed. This class is actually going backwards in absolute terms . In real terms it is a catastrophic divide in Society.<BR/>Immigration policy , marginal taxation , indirect and stealth tax ( regressive) , benefits and housing policy are the chief culprits together with the failure to protect manufacturing . It is an irony that Labour have hurt the supply side of the economy so much that they have been forced to rely on the worst sport of short term capitalism .<BR/>For example , flooding the Labour market and relaxing planning , not attending to the need for apprenticeships and similiar and abandoning grammar schools .<BR/><BR/><BR/>The Conservative Party as Barabara Amiel said months ago has got to start talking about what it is going to do for the poor . It has to tackle growing class division and sadly , as ever with the C`maroon faction there is a vague chat and no policy and no sign that they have ever met anyone who wasn’t a lawyer of meeja parasite or other middleclass careerist. When are the Conservative Partry going to give up their Benneton ad sham inclusiveness and speak to the Unions about what is needed.<BR/><BR/> A good point but in these hands one has small hopes of any meaningful policy .<BR/><BR/>JT eradicating socialism would be wrong . Do you think the private secor will provide reliable housing and health . Be realistic , its a question of rolling back the state , if not simply stopping its growth.<BR/>For the poor , tax exemption is the first step , extended right to buy another streaming and support for marriage ...undoing , in fact the work of Blair.<BR/><BR/>Good post Iain , all is not lost . I expect the A list lobotomy is scheduled pretty soon thoughAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com