tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post116095093278917138..comments2024-03-04T17:54:32.559+00:00Comments on Iain Dale's Diary: Government Should Not Interfere Unnecessarily in Faith SchoolsIain Dalehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03270146219458384372noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1161127250152240992006-10-18T00:20:00.000+01:002006-10-18T00:20:00.000+01:00My Jewish friend is going to marry an Irish Cathol...My Jewish friend is going to marry an Irish Catholic woman. Will they be sending their children to St. Cohens?<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://corporatepresenter.blogspot.com" REL="nofollow">More good stuff here</A>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1161026752184716192006-10-16T20:25:00.000+01:002006-10-16T20:25:00.000+01:00I am disturbed by the screams of BAN BAN BAN on he...I am disturbed by the screams of BAN BAN BAN on here. Typical leftie (and right-wing collectivist) control freakery. If parents wish to sent their children to faith schools (or, yes, Marxist schools) they should be allowed to.<BR/><BR/>I agree with those who call for religious schools to be privatised (although most of them are owned by the C of E anyway) but would add that ALL schools should be privatised. Why should I be forced to pay for someone's child to have a secular education?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1161026333604702242006-10-16T20:18:00.000+01:002006-10-16T20:18:00.000+01:00the founding fathers of America had the right idea...the founding fathers of America had the right idea - in order for freedom of religion to exist, the state should not interfere. By keeping state and church separate, one guarantees religious freedom.<BR/><BR/>look the mess we've created over here - where we're in the ridiculous situation of a government FUNDING Muslim extremists with OUR tax money. (see Ruth Kelly's statements recently)<BR/><BR/>if there are to be faith schools , they can be private and self financing, with zero support from the taxpayer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1161024702166984312006-10-16T19:51:00.000+01:002006-10-16T19:51:00.000+01:00verity: Although I'm not American,Thanks for clear...verity:<BR/><BR/><EM> Although I'm not American,</EM><BR/><BR/>Thanks for clearing that up, Verity. I was never sure, one way or the other.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1161024564854043052006-10-16T19:49:00.000+01:002006-10-16T19:49:00.000+01:00Anonymous 3:08:You say of a school system without ...Anonymous 3:08:<BR/><BR/>You say of a school system without faith schools, <EM>Because their faith is not the subject of debate and examination in an academic context, they are prey to all sorts of nonsense</EM><BR/><BR/>Do you honestly imagine that faith schools "debate and examination [religion] in an academic context"? What planet do you inhabit? Surely the whole point of faith schools is exactly to prevent this very thing happening?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1161024167866931702006-10-16T19:42:00.000+01:002006-10-16T19:42:00.000+01:00anonymous 3.08:... all sorts of nonsense - such as...anonymous 3.08:<BR/><BR/><EM>... all sorts of nonsense - such as the belief that the Bible was written in English.</EM><BR/><BR/>One of my favourite moments was many years ago in Texas when I somehow found myself in a roadside diner miles from anywhere talking to another customer, an old guy, and we got onto the subject of the Bible. <BR/><BR/>Then he came out with the classic: "I don't see the point in all them newfangled versions. The King James Bible was good enough for Jesus himself to use, so it's good enough for me." <BR/><BR/>There's no answer to that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1161011896007828112006-10-16T16:18:00.000+01:002006-10-16T16:18:00.000+01:00to one the brave "Anonymous" poster of 3:08 who wr...to one the brave "Anonymous" poster of 3:08 who wrote: "then religion ...is more likely to be of an extremist variety unrelated to normal life. That's what happens in the case of quite a lot of evangelical Christians in the US."<BR/><BR/>You could say the same of voodoo. Yet voodoo practitioners are not typical worshippers in the US, and neither are evangelicals. They are a sub-group and, as in people who put their faith in voodoo, tend not to be educated or much given to deductive reasoning.<BR/><BR/>Although I'm not American, I love America and get sick of facile people grabbing a miniscule, very much minority, aspect of life there that they've heard about on the BBC, and using it to prove some point.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1161010812520686292006-10-16T16:00:00.000+01:002006-10-16T16:00:00.000+01:00It seems to me that historically there has been an...It seems to me that historically there has been an AWFUL lot of 'interference' in faith schools, particularly where the catholic Brothers have been involved. it's costing the Pope an arm and a leg from dublin to Boston Massecusetts via all points in between.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1161008004309423242006-10-16T15:13:00.000+01:002006-10-16T15:13:00.000+01:00anonymous, 1.36.Schools should teach about religio...anonymous, 1.36.<BR/><BR/>Schools should teach about religion(s) but in my opinion should not be of a particular faith (which implies worship at the school). <BR/><BR/>Your implication of ignorance of the subject of religion being bad is fair enough. However, I don't think non-faith schools have a monopoly in this regard.<BR/><BR/>The history of, and in, the Bible is extremely interesting but do Catholic schools teach everything about where it came from and the very human people who wrote it (and when)? Probably not. They teach their narrow interpretation of it, missing out the inconvenient bits.<BR/><BR/>Just like some faith schools in the US like to teach their own interpretation of science, missing out the inconvenient bits.<BR/><BR/>If the parents of schoolchildren want to teach their children about their own culture and take them to church (or equivalent) then that is no business of the state, but we should make sure that everyone has a chance to escape their own pigeonhole by giving them a true education.<BR/><BR/>How many children attending a Catholic school in Belfast decide that Catholicism isn't for them and that they would like to become Presbyterian? Not many. Indoctrination is definitely part of the deal. You might say that that is down to their parents but if they weren't separated at school they might have a chance to make their own decisions.<BR/><BR/><BR/>PS Verity - God is indeed a myth, if you go by the true definition of that word. If you have faith, it is that your particular myth is the true one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1161007707576723312006-10-16T15:08:00.000+01:002006-10-16T15:08:00.000+01:00To 2br02bI said in Anon 1.36pm that if schools are...To 2br02b<BR/><BR/>I said in Anon 1.36pm that if schools are purely secular, then religion<BR/><BR/>"is more likely to be of an extremist variety unrelated to normal life".<BR/><BR/>That's what happens in the case of quite a lot of evangelical Christians in the US, I would argue. Because their faith is not the subject of debate and examination in an academic context, they are prey to all sorts of nonsense - such as the belief that the Bible was written in English.<BR/><BR/>If Christianity is collapsing here it is not because of Church schools. The majority here go to secular schools where religion is in practice as much excluded as it is in the US - the difference being that there are many more practicing Christian parents there. But I agree with your point to the extent that no school can operate as a brainwashing institution that guarantees the production of little Christians - that should be a comfort to the militant aetheists on here (and to me also).<BR/><BR/>This debate started on the point of 25% open places, which are designed precisely to address your later point about sectarianism in Liverpool and Belfast. It would be more effective than making all schools secular as in such cities there are Protestant and RC dominated areas so the 25% point might well ensure more mixing than secular schools closely related to local catchment areas. I accept that the 75/25 faith school is a different concept from what has existed historically and applaud the dear old CofE for leading the way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1161007257990314562006-10-16T15:00:00.000+01:002006-10-16T15:00:00.000+01:00Trust in Allah, but tie your camels.I like the ide...Trust in Allah, but tie your camels.<BR/><BR/>I like the idea of not having people of any goup stew in their own juice, but I'm opposed to make children take on religous garb of the fatih school they visit.<BR/><BR/>Ideally, there would be no faith schools at all, but schools that cater in 3-4 tiers to the ability of children.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1161005460971869502006-10-16T14:31:00.000+01:002006-10-16T14:31:00.000+01:00Anonymous 1:36pm:Gee, that explains the collapse o...Anonymous 1:36pm:<BR/><BR/>Gee, that explains the collapse of the Christian religion in America and why it's so flourishing here...<BR/><BR/>Get real! <BR/><BR/>The actual effect is the polar opposite of what you imagine. State religion in the form of established churches, and state religious education in the form of state religious schools, drives people away from religion in any meaningful sense, not to it.<BR/><BR/>Instead, it just gives them a banner to fight the people who went to the other faith school under. Sometimes, as in Glasgow, we're luck and it just takes the form of the Old Firm, Rangers v Celtic. In Northern Ireland, it has taken the form of 30 years of the Trouble, which was a murderous civil war in all by name. <BR/><BR/>That's what it REALLY does.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1161004529264996322006-10-16T14:15:00.000+01:002006-10-16T14:15:00.000+01:00Casual Observer - can you let us have your proof t...Casual Observer - can you let us have your proof that there is no God, please? I'd be interested in your evidence.<BR/><BR/>Dynamite said: "The Sikh dress is proscribed at the very core of the faith>" Did you mean "prescribed" or did you really mean that Sikh dress is outside the law and/or forbidden?<BR/><BR/>Gary Powell writes that the veil should be forbidden in certain circumstances. I agree. It should be against the law to step outside your own door onto a public street with your face covered. The veil is aggressive and is intended, when worn in the West, to be threatening. It is also a statement that the wearer has no intention of behaving by societal norms.<BR/><BR/>In addition, it allows these women to be violent to other women anonymously. I have written before that these blobs shrouded in draperies of push normal women off the kerb, jab their elbows into women's ribs, push them in the back, bar them with their arm from walking through a door before the islamic blob. (Dhimmis aren't supposed to preceed an islamic, you see.) Men, of course, do not experience this aggression, because these islamic women can't touch any man outside their families. <BR/><BR/>Yesterday, Istanbul Tory, who lives in Turkey, agreed and said the aggression of veil wearers is well-recognised and commented upon in Turkey. These women are not being modest, they are making a shrieking statement: "I hate you and your society. You're not good enough for me."<BR/><BR/>They are also saying, "I can watch you, but you cannot see me. That gives me the advantage." They are nasty pieces of work and must be outlawed in public places.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1161002186446489052006-10-16T13:36:00.000+01:002006-10-16T13:36:00.000+01:00Seems to be a strong anti-religious strand here. I...Seems to be a strong anti-religious strand here. If you leave religion at home/school, the vast majority of children will never be exposed to it and, if they ever discover it, it is more likely to be of an extremist variety unrelated to normal life. All children will also continue to be as shockingly ignorant about religion as most children educated in State secular schools are now. (I mean shocking from a cultural viewpoint, not that they may not be believers). So by leaving it out, you are effectively promoting secularism everywhere, not just at school.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, the 25% solution suggested is a perfectly reasonable response in return for State funding. You can't force the places to be taken up, but they can be offered and, if the school is good, whatever its religion, they will be taken up. Wouldn't it be rather fine for more non-Muslims to gain a greater understanding of Islam, and vice versa, by such an arrangement?<BR/><BR/>Incidentally, I should think it is rare indeed for any child to have been indoctrinated (i.e. become religious) from attending a school alone. What it does do is provide the tools if religious feelings are present, or later emerge.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1161000660306019082006-10-16T13:11:00.000+01:002006-10-16T13:11:00.000+01:00I agree with ian (as opposed to Iain) - if we are ...I agree with ian (as opposed to Iain) - if we are paying for a school then we should have a chance to send our children to it. The point surely, Iain, is that we should favour the rights of individuals over the rights of institutions.<BR/><BR/>I also see the point of doing our best to avoid apartheid - and we know from Northern Ireland and Glasgow that that's where we are headed if we're not careful.<BR/><BR/>The government's proposals apply only to new state schools - well, at least it's a first step. Lord Baker and I would have applied such strictures to existing schools too.Ralph Lucashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00669038533754181563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1160998194878626142006-10-16T12:29:00.000+01:002006-10-16T12:29:00.000+01:00Anyone who knows Northern Ireland or the West of S...Anyone who knows Northern Ireland or the West of Scotland knows for certain that the notion that faith schools are in any way a good idea is pure nonsense.<BR/><BR/>They should have been banished from the spectrum of pulically-financed education years ago: the only reason they were not was that 150 years ago when the government stated to take responsibility for education, the vast majority of existing schools were church schools.<BR/><BR/>It's time for us to move forward from 1850 into the 21st century. No religious state-funded schools!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1160996702362743762006-10-16T12:05:00.000+01:002006-10-16T12:05:00.000+01:00Faith schools are bad news period. Look at Norther...Faith schools are bad news period. Look at Northern Ireland if you want to see where this is leading. Faith schools are a motor for segregation, sectarianism and then violence. With the experiences of Northern Ireland you'd think we'd realise this. Evidently not. Wake up!<BR/><BR/>The state should be neutral in matters of religion. And that means in state schools no endorsement of religions. Let parents do that. And if they like they can pay for religious education at private schools. Fine. Though I'd regulate those pretty heavily.The Druidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11105272496764432050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1160993467337377392006-10-16T11:11:00.000+01:002006-10-16T11:11:00.000+01:00A faith school is a kind of abuse as it is an impo...A faith school is a kind of abuse as it is an imposition of the irrational beliefs of the parents and school on the child, a child who is in no position to make up his or her own mind about any of them. Teach ethical behaviour by all means but please don't link it to a religion. There is nothing wrong with rational moral teaching. Keep the heaven /hell /miracles /meteorites /statues /crystals /pentagrams at home or church.<BR/><BR/>Martin Scott has it right - would a Marxist school be allowed at all? So why allow any other kind of indoctrination in, what, after all, is a state regulated business, funded or not.<BR/><BR/>The arbitrary 25% quota is a distraction. <BR/><BR/>The reason faith schools (particularly CofE) are popular is less to do with the faith itself, more to do with the discipline and parental support that they attract. <BR/><BR/>Given a faith school is often selection by the class of the parents - which is pretty divisive - why not change them to selection by the ability of the child instead? It would do rather more for social mobility.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1160988653615412692006-10-16T09:50:00.001+01:002006-10-16T09:50:00.001+01:00I went to a school in Prestwich, Lancashire where ...I went to a school in Prestwich, Lancashire where many of my fellow pupils were Jewish.<BR/><BR/>In Middlesbrough I attended a CofE school which was a few hundred yards from the Roman Catholic school. One ran the gauntlet if you found yourself in a smaller 'group' than those going to the Catholic school, Obviously it happened to Catholic scholars as well.<BR/><BR/>Faith schools divide and do not unite.Let us stop this mess now and ban all faith schools. insist on school uniforms, ensure there are no deviations to the National uniform!<BR/><BR/>I saw the National Teachers Awards yesterday and was extremely impressed by the dedication shown by all.strapworldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18228784526399929300noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1160988621003497052006-10-16T09:50:00.000+01:002006-10-16T09:50:00.000+01:00Ban the lot of them - all religions. They're not w...Ban the lot of them - all religions. They're not worth the trouble. Amen.The Daily Pundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10897210727324532431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1160988067152428912006-10-16T09:41:00.000+01:002006-10-16T09:41:00.000+01:00Iain,I think you are wrong here. It's important th...Iain,<BR/><BR/>I think you are wrong here. It's important that independent faith schools can teach as they wish, but state-funded bigotry should not be tolerated. I've posted about the gay rights legislation on my blog - what is the point in equal rights legislation if those who do not comply already do not have to comply? In my eyes, Kelly is a bigot and is exactly who we shouldn't have in charge of 'countering religious extremism'.<BR/><BR/>RSReactionary Snobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13607807975154290987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1160987819040475042006-10-16T09:36:00.000+01:002006-10-16T09:36:00.000+01:00If they want state funding ... if not then they sh...If they want state funding ... if not then they should be allowed whatever entry and curriclum requirements that are legalBuenaventura Durrutihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13905496758011641954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1160986692732890112006-10-16T09:18:00.001+01:002006-10-16T09:18:00.001+01:00If this measure is worth doing, it should be done ...If this measure is worth doing, it should be done properly.<BR/><BR/>ALL faith schools should be made to allocate 25% to non-faith children. Give them 5 years to comply; otherwise they must become general schools.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1160986687354030832006-10-16T09:18:00.000+01:002006-10-16T09:18:00.000+01:00Religious indoctrination has no place in schools. ...Religious indoctrination has no place in schools. What if I wanted to setup a Marxist school that would teach (or should that be 'preach') the pupils about the evils of capitalism and decadent western societies? Should that be permitted?<BR/><BR/>Indoctrinating pupils in Marxist theory at the expense of a rounded education is not desirable. Neither is indoctrinating pupils to believe in superstitions (whether they are 'christian','jewish, 'hindu' or 'muslim' superstitions), rather than rational thought.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1160984936251141042006-10-16T08:48:00.000+01:002006-10-16T08:48:00.000+01:00The Sikh dress is proscribed at the very core of t...The Sikh dress is proscribed at the very core of the faith, unlike either the veil in Islam (which is a cultural interpretation) or the wearing of the crucifix in Christianity.Paul Evanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03941688096751778537noreply@blogger.com