I have spent much of the day dealing with undertakers, vicars and solicitors so I am afraid I know nothing about the reaction to the Queen's speech. More on that anon. But I do want to share something that happened today.
I am the Executor to my Godmother's will, so went to see her solicitor this morning to establish what I have to do. At the end of the meeting I asked what the fees were likely to be. She informed me that her hourly rate was £185 and then added that it was her company's policy to charge (in addition to the hourly rate) 1 per cent commission on any cash sum left in the will and half a per cent on the property, but this was of course subject to negotiation.
Once I had picked my jaw up off the floor I told her there would be no negotiation because I woudn't be paying any commission at all. She agreed with no further discussion. I left the meeting with a very sour taste in my mouth, wondering if I should use my normal solicitor. It's quite clear to me that if they don't "earn" the commission they will in all likelihood bump up the hours.
So my question is this: are these commission charges normal practice nowadays and if so, are solicitors trying to have their cake and eat it by charging a very high hourly rate AND a commission fee?
UPDATE Wed 11.45am: Thanks to all those who have commented and offered advice. I have just told the firm that their services are no longer required, and I will do it myself.
103 comments:
Well done for saying no to the commission. When my parent both died within a couple of days of each other I was such a wreck I would have agreed to the solicitors taking all the money left in the will. It really is disgusting to be honest. Talk about taking advantage. I'm usually the type of person who reads every detail of an agreement, but on this occasion I was so upset...
Hope things are ok for you Iain, and having a loyal band of friends (although most have never met you) is helping somewhat. God Bless (I'm not religious but someone said it to me and it helped, so here is hoping).
I was sorry to read of your loss. I think that sometimes solicitors and undertakers take advantage of the emotional state that grieving relatives and friends are in at a difficult time. I think it is sad and a tad tasteless.
When I was executor for my Grandfather, quite some years ago now, I found the Which Guide "What to do when someone dies" very helpful. The latest version is at:
http://www.which.co.uk/reports_and_campaigns/money/What_to_do_when_someone_dies_book_408_59458.jsp
In those days my employers provided "Welfare Officers" to help, and mine was very supportive and helped with the visit to the probate office.
My Grandfather's estate was straightforward and I didn't need a solicitor at all. Your situation may be more complicated and you may need legal advice (but don't let them take over and charge...)
It will be a long process to get everything wound up properly. I hope my past experience will be helpful - my condolences on your loss.
Yes. However while solicitors often try it on if challenged they usually agree to no commission as there is usually little or no commercial justification for same. Unfortunately a lot of Executors don't appreciate this and agree to pay commission. If on the other hand the solicitors were delegated responsibility for realising the estate's assets then they could of course reasonably argue for commission.
Attcahed is a link as to what the Law Scoiety advises solicitors regarding charging for non contenious work (inclusind probate work). Obviously this is from the suppliers persective.
http://www.lawsociety.org.uk/productsandservices/services/practiceadvice/booklets/view=practiceadivcearticle.law?PUBLICATIONID=227442
I don't know if it's normal practice, but you were quite right to refuse a commission. An hourly rate, or a percentage, but not both.
I regret to say some members of the legal profession are greedyguts.
Iain, I empathise with you.
I don't know the position in England but went through a similar experience when my wife's mother died in Scotland. The problem was and is that people who get the family solicitor to draw up a will also name that solicitor as Executor or Joint Executor. Unfortunately what may have been a small firm grows into one of these "L.A.Law" mega companies who,by the time the person dies knows nothing about that person and simply charges these outrageous fees which pay for their lavish offices and huge salaries.
There is a helpful boooklet in Scotland which gives advice on what to do in the event of a death and any family Executor can follow that advice, keeping a solicitor's input to a minimum. I hope there is a similar booklet in England.
Good luck.
Sounds like they are pulling a fast one. Tell her that it is not your family's policy to pay percentage fees on estates, that you would like to see her firm's list of hourly charges and tell her that you would like to have a written estimate of time to be spent.
Furthermore ask for details of the hourly rates of any lawyer who is likely to work on the case, and tell her thsat you expect to see a detailed breakdown of all time charges.
In commercial work it is usually possile to get the lawyer to agree a cap but I suspect that you won't get that here, but you could tell her that she has to ring you whenever the billale sum increases y a set amount, say £5,000 or £10,000. After a while you will get a sensation not dissimilar to tinnitus.
I have never heard of it. She is entitled to her fee for her services. She is not entitled to be a co-beneficiary of the Will, which is what her "commission" amounts to.
Dump her. Use a solicitor you know and trust.
Iain,
I don't know if those charges are normal but, whatever the case, I think they are absolutely OUTRAGEOUS.
I cannot see what justification there could be for charging a commission on top of a very generous hourly rate. Perhaps some solicitors here can explain further.
I would definitely use your normal solicitor. You know them and presumably you trust them.
And don't forget, there will be VAT to pay on top of the £185.
They are like Doctors and Dentists. Parasitic vermin, feeding their wallets out of the distress of others. I hoped the Blair government when elected would smash up these appalling middle class closed shops and vested interests. But he let them off scot free. Probably only getting anywhere near sorting out the great teaching scam. Lets hope David Cameron has the bottle to take them on. Some hope....
Sorry for your loss. Shop around re the lawyer. (You're not obliged to use any lawyer).
In my experience, if solicitors are Trustees or Executors they will take a percentage of the estate as their fee (not in addition to an hourly rate!).
If they are neither of those things, to even contemplate asking for a percentage of anything is an attempt at robbery IMO.
Sack 'em Ian, pay as little as possible and engage a firm which you know and have confidence in.
Iain, unless your Godmother's affairs are very complicated you do not need a solicitor. Probate procedure is actually very straightforward.
IN Scotland certainly you as executor could take the executry to whichever firm you like (although are you the only executor or is a solicitor a co-executor?) - the one advantage of using the firm of your late godmother is typically is that they may have points of contact if they have previously dealt with investments and the like (and there may be outstanding fees for legal work which may delay release of files if you are moving business elsewhere). The commission and "uplifts" for estates used to be common in Scotland, now almost all work is done on a time and line basis - some firms still try to charge the former, but usually threatening an accounting (where the work is assessed by a local accountant of court to determine the appropriate fee) can bring the fees down considerably. I would be surprised if the position was very different in England. As with all legal matters, though, shopping around for quotes is recommended - it just so happens that for executires this is not done, because the family do not want the stress of doing so in the immediate aftermath of the bereavement and therefore initiate matters with the firm holding the will.
I had no difficulty in handling probate etc myself (there is a Which book, and a daily telegraph book too, and probate offices are usually very helpful to personal applicants), and I only used a solicitor for one specific legal complexity.
Shop around if I were you.
I had no difficulty in handling probate etc myself (there is a Which book, and a daily telegraph book too, and probate offices are usually very helpful to personal applicants), and I only used a solicitor for one specific legal complexity.
wrt to solicitors the question is never "am I being taken for a ride" but "how much am I being taken for a ride" !!
I'm shocked at the commission policy. I am executor for my late mother. She died in August. Probate (on quite a large estate, with a property) was granted last week. I have not used a solicitor and doubt if an intelligent chap like you needs to.Good luck anyway
Iain,
Contact the Law Society first thing.Then your normal solicitor, ask them what their charges would be.
Ask your Aunt's solicitor for a copy of the agreement whereby your Aunt agreed to their charges including commission. If she did - hard luck! If not you have a case.
I would have done the same as you, with a few choice words as well!
Your comments are depressing. The solicitor was completely open about her firm's charges. You can accept them or not. You're perfectly free to go to a different solicitor if you wish, unless she is named as an executor in the Will. In that case, her firm's charges can be scrutinised by the Law Society or even the Court if you think they are improper.
It is less usual than it was, but many firms still do base part of their charges on the value of the estate and this is permitted (by the Law Society)within certain guidelines. This charge is referred to as the value element - I should be astonished if the solicitor used the word commission and assume that is your interpretation.
It's quite clear to me that if they don't "earn" the commission they will in all likelihood bump up the hours.
I don't see any basis for this allegation whatsoever in your account of the discussion. Do you think it's OK to accuse someone of dishonesty on a public forum such as this?
Solicitors are in competition with not only other solicitors but all sorts of other people who are able or who claim to be able to administer estates. I suggest you shop around or ask people you know for some recommendations.
Do it yourself Iain, I did for my mother, it is not hard and help is available from the probate office.
Firstly, my sympathy to you. Clearly you were very close to your godmother, and it seems she was a splendid lady. I lost my grandmother recently, and found that my happy memories were at times a burden because they reminded of what I had lost, but now I find them a wonderful help in life as I think of how she would have responded in different situations.
My father, who is not a lawyer, has told me in the past that executing a will oneself can be time consuming but is not difficult. In other words, there may be no need to pay a solicitor at all. Aside from your solicitor, if you have time you might also contact your Citizens' Advice Bureau. They are often overlooked but do provide wonderful help in the most difficult of circumstances.
Why use a solicitor at all. i did it all myself for our 4 parents. With the will and death certificate it is no problem.
If you want advice take Verity,s advice
Get another Solicitor- some are still charging £120 per hour. Just get them to get probate- its easy- and do the rest yourself - or better still apply for probate yourself. Iain you can do it all yourself!
Iain, you were being taken for a ride. Given your position & contacts, I'm sure you must have solicitors amongst your friends - use one of them.
I agree with Aardvark and others. Unless there are complicated affairs to settle, you can do it yourself and save Eleanor's estate some money. In your photo, she looked like a shrewd and thrifty lady and I am sure she would prefer whatever funds she left go to those she loved than solicitors.
As Aardvark says, you could probably do it yourself. If you don't have the time, and we know you don't even have time to post on your own blog (!), I am sure there are solicitors advertising in the Yellow Pages offering fixed fees for straightforward Probate services.
Wanting a percentage of the estate is revolting. What are they doing to leach onto someone else's thrift?
Dump this lady and her firm.
defintately taken for a ride. My husband died in an accident and although, having looked at it, I could have coped with getting probate myself I didn't feel my concentration was up to it. I used my local solicitor who gave me a fixed price for uncomplicated probate of about £650.00. No hourly rate and certainly no commission and this is in the Cambs. area. It was all done with a minimum of fuss, certainly it was straightforward and I was the sole executor.
What I also find disgraceful is the way that the solicitor didn't press her case about the commission.
If it had been an integral part of her remuneration, she would have argued for it.
Instead it just seems like a try on.
People like Iain who are articulate and sure of themselves will have the confidence to say no.
Other people who have less confidence or who are disabled by grief nay find it impossible to say no - and therefore end up paying more.
It stinks.
My experience is the same as yours-our executor was an old family friend of my parents and also their lawyer. I thought it outrageous (and still think it so)that his firm charged us a percentage (I think it was 2%) of the value of the estate on top of their usual hourly fees.
However I discussed the matter with the law society at the time and was told this was perfectly acceptable practice. we were not in an easy position to shop around as the solicitor was an executor of the estate. So we paid. The added value? NIL. This practice is the sort of thing which gives lawyers a bad name ( as if they needed one), but the odd thing is, as reflected in some of the comments above, that the lawyers themselves don't seem to see the problem.
BTW at least your solicitor said the fees were negotiable-we didn't get any such indication and were told there was no room for negotiation
kattio, wow, you are obviously a solicitor.
"You're perfectly free to go to a different solicitor if you wish"
Sounds like those rogue traders that charge old ladies £600 to put an aerial up to be honest, they could use a different supplier as well, but they are vulnerable.
So are people whose family have died.
Charging two fees is shameful profiteering out of people's death, and to make out that it's just the free market in action, and that Iain has somehow done something wrong in not being taken for a ride and criticisng the solicitor, wow that really is depressing.
No wonder there are so many jokes about lawyers being reviled.
I don't think I can add a helpful comment; reading people's replies seem like all the help you could get but I'm really glad you said no commission. It really is taking advantage of people who are grieving and maybe not thinking in a reasonable mind.
"kattio" must be living on Mars.
I was involved in the legal world for some years, for several firms and they are all crooked. All, absolutely crooked, in England, in Scotland, everywhere. A friend and colleague of mine nearly ruined his career by beginning it with a solicitor who ended up in jail for taking money from his client account and not paying it back and getting wills changed in his favour.
In Scotland, if you want to buy a property, bung the Solicitor a few quid to get around the "offers over" scam and he will let you know what you need offer to get the property.
Solicitors do not do their work. They sit at desks and dictate letters and sign things and meet clients. The bright ones get other people to do the work. I did conveyancing;searches, exchanges. completions - all the legal stuff, on my own with no training and no qualifications. I interviewed difficult legal aid clients.
As a tenant, the only time I ever had problems was when the landlord was a lawyer; the first time I had to get another soliciitor to get my deposit back with the threat of legal action and on the second occasion I had to threaten him with court.
Firms hide behind fancy names that they bought from somebody. In order to work with building societies they must not be "sole practitioners". This means that they take on a washed up drunk or a mental case with a law degree as a partner, who will keep an office but who will do no work. I saw more than one instance of that.
Another chap, a sole practitioner, had me set up in an office on the other side of town, sitting there, eight hours a day doing twenty minutes work (ten of it was sharpening pencils). He never visited or asked for more than a few minutes work. I knew things were wrong when he "forgot" to pay my salary, but I have no idea to this day what the angle was.
Yet another one just screamed obscenities at her staff all day.
In the case of asking for a commission and an hourly fee, I suggest that they were not only taking the piss (in a very difficult and sad situation) but they were being less than helpful.
My advice to you Iain is
Caveat Emptor.
Iain - I was appalled by the insensitivity of Chris Paul who was complaining about you not moderating your own blog regularly over the last couple of days.
I thought your response to him requires wider distribution:
"Chris, sometimes I don't know whether you do it deliberately or are just plain stupid.
"I have spent the whole day dealing with funereal matters relating to my Godmother. I have no internet access at my parent's house. I can only moderate comments on my Blackberry, which only works sporadically there.
"I couldn't give a toss what you think of me politically, but what I really find perplexing is your lack of human compassion. If you really think moderating comments is the first thing on my mind when I am dealing with funeral directors, vicars and solicitors then think again."
Chris Paul seems to spend all his days writing pointless blogs that rely on other bloggers to give him something to talk about in his strange language that he claims to have honed as a journalist.
And, of course, he gets virtually no comments other from himself and the three other nutters in Manchester who think he's some sort of intellectual leviathan.
Sad man!
affected by IHT were you Iain... The one party policy.. SHUT UP
The solicitors acting for my sister regarding my father's will last year were totally incompetent even losing £70k at one stage. They refused to budge on their costs until I went to the Legal Complaints Bureau - run by the Law Society and then they agreed to cut their fees by 50%.
Unless the estate is very complicated you would be better off doing it yourself. The Probate people are very helpful and will take you through the process.
I would like to mention the fact that we are a country run by a small group of self serving masonic lawyers for a very large group of self-serving masonic lawyers/solicitors to get very busy and very rich in.
But as I am told by free masons that free masonry is "simply a charitable mans club where nothing secretive or highly questionable EVER gos on," I will not.
Because that may offend one or two secretive and highly questionable members of the legal profession that contribute to this site.
And we would not want to offend anyone, especially lawyers, would we Iain?
Best just to be a lawyer/solicitor and become an MP. Then insist on inventing countless amounts of useless illiberal incomprehensible, if not overtly fascist new laws on a daily basis to keep all your university chums busy and even richer.
Then let all the murderous and violent criminals out of prison after a weekend or two. For the single logical purpose of making lawyers and solicitors even more busy and even richer still, when the criminal eventually gets around to murdering or permanently disfiguring someone else.
When that little scam reaches saturation point, you can also employ literally thousands of lawyers and solicitors in the government, civil-service, NHS. police,education system local councils and even your own political party.
Thus ensuring no one can or wants do anything about these otherwise completely worthless vast armies of lawyers and solicitors that infest virtually every grubby corner of our lives.
Which explains WHY the bastards can then get away with charging you Iain, any thing they bloody well want. In the full and safe knowledge that Gordon will always find a well paid scam for them to thrust their greedy and highly sticky fingers right the way into.
That is if their normal form of day light robbery fails to impress the grieving customer.
I recently helped sort out my Grandmother's estate. We paid the solicitor to sort the legal bits with regards transfer of property, and I did all the legwork, in terms of opening and closing bank accounts (which was a wearying and time consuming business). All told, with a will which was not entirely straight forward, the legal costs were about £2.5k - but that included conveyancing of houses going into different names etc.
I agree with the sentiments about the commission - its nothing but opportunism. There is no inherent time difference between executing a £250k and a £1m will. It seems impossible to justify.
There are so many practitioners today in the UK, shadowing the explosion of lawyers in the US who had to make work, that the law is no longer an arcane area. Unlike heart surgery, most of us can do a lot of it ourselves if we have the time.
I would not want to see the carefully conserved estate of someone I loved being ravenously consumed by lawyerly piranas.
Dump this law firm. Or tell them there's no commission, and you don't like their fees. What is their best offer. They'll come up with one.
If the will is straightforward and the estate modest and unencumbered, you can do the work yourself. If you need advice and assistance, you can use your own lawyer.
If the estate is large and there are inheritance tax issues to be negotiated with the Capital taxes Office, you need professional advice which should pay for itself.
[I haven't read previous comments which may have made these points already]
Tu es connard. Vrai connard. C'est tout!
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You are correct! Completely correct! That is all!
The experience of almost everyone I know who has used a solicitor in the last few years suggests Kattio is living in a different world. It is tough for the few honest ones, but pretending all solicitors are snow white and competent is utter nonsense. My own (divorce) solicitors were so incompetent they actually breached their own contract with me - in an effort to get more fees out of me. They had to withdraw their invoice in the end. Get a good one, probably a single practice, and keep her/him.
Christ. I have had one encounter with a solicitor in 40 years. I went to him to get a letter offering to 'make good'- over something I had tried to prevent happening.
He also had to post a surveyor's report.
Had one meeting. Once he'd posted the letter his job was over.
Little did I know he and the opposition - who was briefed to look for fight - played phone and fax tennis for days. About what? There was nothing to discuss.
Eventually he sent me a letter telling me to pay the next door yobbo's considerable legal costs.
Lie 1. It was a civil case, so I don't have to pay for somebody else to cause trouble at my expense.
Then he sent his bill, many hundreds of pounds. And yes, he'd run a bill dealing with the Yobbo's solicitor, who running up a bill dealing with....you get the idea.
Lie 2. My solicitor's bill - you can only get it broken down if you demand a 'retention certificate' - included two meetings.
Funny, I thought, only met him once. Then the penny dropped. I had gone to his office to pay the cheque for the other side. Asked the receptionist to call upstairs by phone to ask the exact amount. Solicitor walks down stairs to give the me the exact figure.
And yes, he charged me £23 for walking down the stairs. Which I hadn't asked him to do.
Lie 3. Once the minor damage to a pile of soil was repaired, Solicitor calls to say he's had another letter about another matter concerning my building work.
So I sacked him on the spot and did the legal work myself - funny how useful the internet is. And funny how the opposition faded away once the other solicitor had been binned. No chance of running up fees, you see.
I complained to the Law Society helpline, who told me straight away I shouldn't have paid costs in a civil case unless ordered to by a court.
So I badgered her with my best hack technique about the yobbo solicitor inventing a new problem after the first was settled.
'Well, you paid up once, so they were on to a good thing'. Yes, this was the 12 year-old on the Law Society helpline. Then the penny dropped in her empty head.
'If you use that quote, the Law society will sue you'.
Er, no love, but they might try and sue the publisher of the quote.
Solicitors expect to earn a certain amount of money. Go anywhere near them and they will try and extract it.
Unless you are buying/selling a house, never, EVER, go near a solicitor.
I spent a few hours on the web with the party wall act, batted the yobbo solicitor off and even managed to threaten him with the 1997 Harrasment Act as he was threatening actions he wasn't allowed to execute. Like 'banning' the surveyor from inspecting the neighbour's garden.
Indeed, he wrote threatening a court order, if I didn't stop building work. So I had 10 minutes on the phone with him and I got an emailed retraction 'we don't want to hold up your development' the following morning.
Cowards and bullies, especially the men.
What scum these people are. My first thought when I read your post was of Wapping and printers. Margaret and Murdoch broke the print unions, quite rightly, but the fact that we still have this closed shop of pen pushers able to do things like this beggars belief.
Well, no it doesn't, of course. How many lawyers do we currently have sitting on the tory benhiches? Once your man is in power this will get worse, not better.
Life, as someone once said, is a bucket of shit.
there are very few good trustworthy lawyers.
lawyers have been making packets out of regulatory expansion, and most now have little respect for anybody's money other than wanting to get hold of it for themselves.
work through who you know. pick advisers you trust. change as soon as you feel you are being squeezed. don't hang around for more of the same.
it used to be american lawyers who left you aghast with their fees for doing nothing. sadly many british are now the same.
there are still some excellent lawyers around who do a good job, are intersted in helping you and don't rip you off. but they take some finding.
if you network locally, you should meet the right kind of people to help you. but it's the one in ten you are seeking. sad to say.
most of this goverment are solicitors nuff said.
I'm so sorry to read about your loss Iain. Having recent been bereaved myself I really can empathise. The solicitor I saw said something that almost made me faint. He even remarked that I would be very surprised to hear what he was about to say before he said it, and I was grateful for the advance warning!He told me that probate was pretty straightforward and I could handle it myself and thus did not need to engage him. He organised some conveyancing on my behalf FOR FREE!! As I said, I very nearly fainted..... Sadly some unscrupulous solicitors are going to try it on, parasites that they are, but there are some good guys out there and my advice would be to shop around until you find one. You can choose whichever one you wish. Good luck Iain - and try to pace yourself if you can, it makes coping that little bit easier. And I'll say God bless too.
bloody lawyers
Yes.
Next question, what do you do about it - plenty of advice above but as a farm boy I'm sure pitchforks and burning straw came to mind as well.
Why not name the firm, Iain? You need not worry about confidentiality, which is a matter for the client, not the solicitor. You are perfectly at liberty to tell us who they are.
I had a similar conversation with my father's solicitor 2 years ago, at which point I decided to deal with the will myself. I found the entire process both simple enlightening. Get yourself a copy of the Which publication, "Wills and Probate" by Paul Elmhirst and go here... http://www.netprobate.co.uk/ProbateGuide/guide.htm
A few years back I have a brainwave, thatlawyers should be BARRED from making laws in parliament, because they had ulterior motives.
Then I discovered that Charles II (I think) had actually banned them from parliament all those years ago.
How did they weasel their way back in ?
Iain, you asked a good question, and had amazing amounts of good advice from your great group of readers.
Alan Douglas
In the same way the government sees easy pickings when someone dies, so do solicitors and funeral directors. They know the person receiving the money usually won't have the time or inclination to query it.
My mother was told by her solicitor that the charge for probate after my father died was £600. After administering it, he then charged her £2,000. She was upset but paid up.
About a year later she had a letter from the Law Society saying it was investigating this solicitor and asked if she had any complaints about her dealings with him. She described her experience.
She is still waiting for the £1,400 refund and has changed her solicitor.
I am a solicitor but don't do probate work (unfortunately). The market does not operate properly making this work so lucrative. The solicitor is probably named as one of the personal representatives in the will and has the deeds of the deceased's property in his office, so it is only a determined client who will look around for a better price. I am surprised the smaller accountants have not moved into this area as most of the work seems to me to be no more than book keeping.
Is there anybody else but me who thinks that £185/hr is, in itself, exorbitant? That's £384k pa for f*ck's sake!
My only experience of solicitors has been in house purchase, and even there they wanted too much. They asked me to put 10% of the house price on deposit with the seller's solicitor "in good faith" whilst the transaction was being conducted. Nice little earner eh? They didn't get it... I suspect they all think we're all stupid because we're not lawyers.
Wouldn't it be nice if the law of the land was simple enough for everyman to understand, and we could say goodbye to all the lawyers & accountants who feed off of it, and us, now.
Ignore "special pleading" (legal phrase?" from your legal posters. DIY. It is actually quite interesting as well as economical, and you can take your time (as the solicitor certainly would, especially in paying anything due to you).
The local rate seems to be about 4% of the estate value and spookily enough adds up to that however the fees are described! I suggest that you do it yourself but then pay your accountant to check it over before sending anything to the inland revenue.
What a load of paranoid whingeing nonsense in these comments ! And anyone who thinks this government is in a love-in with the legal profession is just deluded. There's nothing that lawyers turned politicians like more than bashing their former colleagues.
As a lawyer, I am sick of the reams of new legislation this government has produced. It saps the will to live !
Do people direct the same venom at their GP, who is making on average over £100k a year "out of our misery" ? No, even though the medical profession is more secretive and protective of its own, and even more dependent on your trust.
Iain: you went to see this lawyer, she suggested her charges, you thought they were high, and ..... ? Do what you'd do with a builder: get a couple of quotes, or even ask if it's a job you could do yourself.
I am a solicitor (but now working as an in-house lawyer). If it is a simple Will and estate, for heavens sake take out the Grant yourself - the Probate Registry are always very helpful and it is usually very simple. You can always get separate tax advice if you need it.
I think it should be a professional duty to advise Executors, in SIMPLE cases, to consider taking out the Grant themselves (many may do this).
The charging arrangements are a hangaover from the past and this lawyer and, I think, many others have been uneasy about them for a long time.
Having said that, if there are difficulties that the solicitor faces which would not be adequately remunerated through an hourly rate, then it may be fair to charge more. Good isn't it that the solicitor was up front with the details of her charges, as she should have been; and you have the option to go elsewhere.
Sorry to be anon, this is not advice .....
What snidey slimeballs some lawyers are. BUT I have had some very good free advice off of two recenetly, so they are not all bad.
Do it yourself, then work out what you have saved and if you wish make a donation to her favourite charity.
"I am the Executor to my Godmother's will, so went to see her solicitor this morning to establish what I have to do."
If you are the only Executor, the only thing you have to do is to execute the instructions in the will. Any money etc not covered by the will goes to the next of kin.
My father died four years ago without a leaving a will. Virtually the first thing I did was phone the probate office to see how to get probate established. The response was 'are you sure you need it?'
Actually, it turned out I didn't (there is a maximum value beyond which it would have been necessary to formally establish probate). Although my father left virtually nothing other than one insurance policy he managed to leave almost nothing all over the place. It took days and days of work to sort things out. The most legally challenging thing was that my mother, as next of kin, had to sign a form saying that she accepted responsibility for a payment made to her i.e. the payee would not be blamed if anyone popped up claiming some of the money.
In your case you actually have a will. Like others have said, you probably don't need a lawyer at all. If there are any particular points where you really do need a lawyer engage one to do those particular things. Lawyers doing probate 'work' will charge you if they have to do anything, but will also definitely charge you just for saying they are doing probate work.
Do it yourself. Having a will should cut out a lot of time. Using a lawyer may very well cause you to use up the same amount of time anyway dealing with the lawyer and their probable mistakes plus it would cost a fortune.
Many posters here have suggested that, if the estate is relatively uncomplicated, you can obtain the Grant of Probate yourself, and, with the expenditure of legwork, that's just what I did when my mother died. I used my accountant to check through my Probate form and IHT calculations, which was useful as they form teh basis of whatever tax subsequently needs to be paid. I got my own conveyancing solicitor to arrange for transferring property into my name. Total cost - couple of hundred quid and some shoeleather. You can always ask a solicitor for specific advice, but there's really no need for them to take on all the work unless you feel unable to face it.
Reading your posting just now, I leaped in to add my two penn'orth, but see that many people have got there before me. You simply don't need a solicitor. You appear to have more than half a brain-cell, and the duties of an executor will be not only a doddle, but also a dutiful task conducted with honour and respect.
When my father died, his bank - Lloyds TSB, God rot them for eternity - resisted handing over the contents of the safe deposit until my joint-executor [an accountant] got very stern with them. They wanted to hand over to the solicitor, in defiance of our position - AND DUTY UNDER LAW - as executors. We did the entire job [a complex £2m estate] without the bank and without a solicitor, and had grant of probate within 3 months. Father's solicitor was similarly outraged to miss out on his comfortable pay-day. Those rascals have a vested interest in delaying probate, and milking the estate of as much money for old rope as they can get away with.
Armed with my experience, I will be my uncle's sole executor and am quite relaxed about the prospect. Others have recommended the Which guide. There are plentiful web-based resources that will help you.
Put the money saved, by not paying scalping professionals, towards some splendid wine and toast the old lady's memory.
Yes. I used my own solicitor and paid up cheerfully because I did not want to do any of it. It was worth every penny for me but it depends what you need them to do -- in my case, they earned it.
Never heard of such a thing (I'm married to a solicitor). The charge out rate seems steep too.
This difficult time for you has naturally led to lots of quite proper expressions of support on here, which I'm totally behind, but I wonder whether people appreciate just how many fees are decided on the basis of percentage of capital sums?
Regardless of the amount of actual work (which in this OTT case is paid for by chargeable hours), uplift in capital values / quantum size of deal lead to commission-based fees for, among others , bankers, traders, pension fund managers, managing agents, valuers and secondarily their staff, who receive bonuses connected to the level of profit they make.
I don't seek to make a political point here, but in a capitalist system you will always have fee-raising related to capital sums involved.(Which feeds right down to the cost of a garden hose at B & Q!). As I said, I'm not making a case for a different system, as I'm happy in this one!
Thankfully, you personally have the choice to walk away in this case.
I agree with the advice about decent wine.
Name them and shame them !!
For once in your life, I think the 'Don't you know who I am' line might actually be excusable..
B@$t@rd$...
I know of at least one private banking "arm" of a major bank that offers a full financial (and advice regarding any other aspect) service to people bereaved, and charge a percentage of the estate as their fee, with no hourly charge.
I was faced with dealing with my mother's will, and on describing it to a solicitor I know socially, was told that it was following procedures and form filling for a simple will, and that it would be foolish to pay hundreds of pounds for it. I took his advice, and so it turned out to be.
It was time consuming, but not difficult.
If the will is complicated, or badly written, or the affairs of the estate are complicated, you ought to get a solicitor to do it for you, but choose carefully.
The other point is, that like it or not, wills can cause a lot of falling out in families, and that just might be a reason for not wanting to handle it yourself, but you have to make a decision on that.
Solicitors dealing with wills and undertakers, are usually dealing with people who are very upset, and think it's somehow unseemly to quibble over the costs.
Hurrah for Mr Dale ! I have just read your update. Well done, sir, your godmother would be very proud of you, that you have learned not to be taken for a ride by these charlatans...
The charging rate quoted is not unreasonable for a partner in a solicitors firm and even the commission charge though unusual is allowable. What is extraordinary though is the suggestion that the administration of the estate requires the expertise of a person at her level. Unless your godmother's estate is one of considerable complexity this looks like overkill.
My experience is that well run firms of solicitors use managing clerks, now called paralegals, to do the vast bulk of the work with the partner providing occasional overseeing of their work. These clerks would have a charging rate in average about £50-100 per hour.
If the estate involves any sort of tax compliance I would not recommend doing it yourself as payment of unnecessary tax could be far more costly than the professional fees.
I am totally baffled about why a lawyer would get a percentage of the estate. Except in circumstances of a very complicated Will, the value of the estate doesn't impact on the amount of work done. I have never heard anything so daft and greedy. How can they cut themselves in to someone else's inheritance?
Even this woman's hourly charges verge on lunacy for such simple work. Then she wants to cut herself in to your Godmother's money. Yuck!
As I said above, Britain is now experiencing what the US experienced, but 20 years later, as always. Way too many law schools recruiting students, with the result of way too many lawyers and way too many of them bottom feeders.
I have written to a friend in Texas to find out if Texas law lets lawyers take advantage of the bereaved.
Well done for ditching the solicitors!
Two of my grandparents died a few years ago, both leaving over-complex wills and instructions to their own solicitors. The wrangling that ensued in both cases was frustrating and distressing for all concerned, cost thousands and was exacerbated not eased by the solicitors.
My advice to anyone making their arrangements is to avoid engaging a solicitor that the executors might not want when the time comes. Certainly don't make a solicitor one of the executors - a recipe for conflict and getting ripped off.
Good luck!
The "percentage of estate" commission arrangement works on exactly the same principle as an estate agent's commission on the sale of a property - the higher the value, the higher the charge.
It's common, and is practised, as I said above, by a wide range of proffessionals. The only other time this principle is challenged is when concewrt-goers complain about "per ticket" "booking fees", which are really "retail mark-ups".
How most lawyers disguise their percent commissions is by giving a bespoke quote when they realise the size of the estate, and don't mention the "per cent" equation that they use.
As an example, some institutions offer a "wealth transfer service" for a large fee, which , unknown to the client, will be decided when the size of the estate emerges. Some would call this the "unacceptable face" of capitalism. Capitalism neatly defines the process -take the "capital sum" and derive a profit from it.
Good. You're doing the right thing if the will is not complicated. If you have inherited property, it costs between£50-£100 to have the name replaced. The Land Registry are extremely helpful and will usually guide you. Solicitors put ALL the Estate monies into a client account and can virtually charge what they wish and take it out of this account without your permission,so good on you for DIY.
"I have never heard anything so daft and greedy. How can they cut themselves in to someone else's inheritance?"
Because they are capitalists.
Dear Iain, may I offer my condolences to you at this time. The last thing you need is a bunch of vultures to worry about. Glad that you offed them.
The only species commonly held to be lower than both journalists and politicians!
(of course some are all three!)
Verity is spot on. The hourly fee is usual- but hourly fee AND "commission". Piss take.
Donal Blaney's a solicitor- I'd just do it my self and ask my friend for a free steer as and when.
Verity
You should understand that there is a reason why the US and Britain always end up with the same problems and for the same reasons.
You can continue to hope it is a cock-up or just evolved that way if it helps.
However experience and knowledge should aways guide you to some kind of conspiracy rather then inevitable evolved reactions.
Especially when both things happen on both side of the Atlantic, if not all over the entire world, at more or less the same time.
Absolute bloodsuckers, Iain, absolute bloodsuckers.
Anonymous 5:32 - "Because they are capitalists" is a rather strange answer. Grossly overcharging and taking advantage of the vulnerability of the bereaved is not what I call capitalism.
I call it opportunism and I call it sleazy.
I remember resenting the solicitor's involvement and fees when my mother died in '02. Especially paying £120 an hour for easy work that they get their assistants to do.
I also remember that when I had trouble with a bailiff and asked about it on uk.legal newsgroup, all the lawyers jumped to the bailiff's defence, advising me to pay up. I almost did so, but in the end it turned out that I was 100% correct to be suspicious - the guy was trying it on.
Lawyers, bailiffs, estate agents, no difference. All take advantage of people in difficult circumstances.
A commission to reflect the size of the estate in addition to a fare charge for the time taken is not unreasonable.
Any professional who administers a very valuable transaction has to be aware that they may be subject to a claim if any sort of error is made and the larger the estate the more likely the larger such a claim would be.
Chris (M) - Oh! Boo hoo! Cry me a river!
"A commission to reflect the size of the estate in addition to a fare [sic] charge ... Any professional who administers a very valuable transaction has to be aware that they may be subject to a claim if any sort of error is made " Right. And a bus driver who crashes a bus has to be similarly aware.
A "very valuable transaction"? Executing a Will that has been written and signed and witnessed and that there are clear steps to follow in its execution is a "very valuable transaction"? To who? You?
You're going to file a Will and you want a cut of it. It's not your family or friend and not your money, but you want some of it.
You want a "fee" - posh name for "price" - for executing someone else's instructions - PLUS a commission?
Why?
Chris (M) writes: Any professional who administers a very valuable transaction has to be aware that they may be subject to a claim if any sort of error is made and the larger the estate the more likely the larger such a claim would be.
Subject to a claim if any sort of error is made?
Made BY WHOM? The client? That the passive tense is employed might lead us to...
... the solicitors?
They want beneficiaries to give up some of their inheritance in case the SOLICITORS make an error?
Stressed as they are regarding the death of someone they love, they are now expected to protect not themselves and their families, but the SOLICITORS?
Good on Iain for executing his Godmother's Will himself. The procedure is laid down in English law and he can it follow himself.
PS, Chris M - This is why we have that old tradition known as "insurance".
To demand that an individual client assume the burden of paying for the solicitor's possible incompetence by way of giving up a percentage of his inheritance is insane.
Verity
An "anonymous" put iT crudely (and ungrammatically!) but if you are a capitalist, you can't compalin at the "per cent" commission aspect.
The current writers' strike in the US might explain a little better for you - they want to be paid on a capitalist basis - i.e. a percentage of sales, but their employers want to pay them on a "hired hand" basis (more akin to socailism). The writers argueis that they helped create the entity (ie films) and should partake in the profit, while the producers argue that they themselves created the product, and the writers, like the set designers, were part of a hired team. Similarly, the lawyer in this case argues that they are helping to create an entity called "a legal, paid-up bequeathed estate".
In a merger, the entity would be a new company, and the lucky investment banker would pocket a percentage of the capital involved, rather than an hourly rate. That really is how capitalism works.
Buy a commercial premises for £10m , and hire a managing agent to negotiate rents upwards, insure the place on your behalf, maintain and improve the appearance etc, and you will include in their contract an incentive scheme whereby they benefit from a 10% cut of any increase in capital value (increased rents = increased cap. value). After two years, the value is £12m, and then fire destroys it. The re-instatement cost is £15m, and the insurance company decides to save itself £1m by buying the property from you for £14m. The managing agent is entitled to £400k of the proceeds. Fair? I dunno. Capitalism? For sure.
Well done Iain in avoiding the bloodsuckers - personally I think it's the hourly rate that's beyond reason
Verity - you do not seem to understand that professionals dealing with estates have to have indemnity insurance and the larger the transactions they are administering the greater will be the premium and the amounts are not insignificant. Charges which have an element which recognises the value of the estate are not unreasonable as the risks of a significant claim are greater.
The idea that winding up an estate is easy may well be the case where mum has a few bank accounts and a welsh dresser but many others are extremely complex. As an aside Leo Marks in his autobiography said that administering his father's estate (he had the famous bookshop in Charing Cross Road) was more complicated than anything he had to do in wartime code deciphering).
The number of people who administer family estates who then pat themselves on the back because they have saved a few thousands in legal fees without realising that they have arranged things so that they pay tens of thousands too much in tax is extraordinary. This leaves aside the number of siblings who fall out in the process.
But I suspect Verity that the reality is that you have a prejudice against solicitors and nothing would convince you of their worth. Ho hum.
It's the same with many architects who want to charge a percentage of building costs on things like extensions. It's not transparent or fair at best and dishonest at wost. Top job for standing up to them.
David Brain
It's not just architects, but project managers, surveyors, etc. All buliding projects pay the major contributors a percentage cost of the budget, not an "hourly rate" Build a development costing £175m and the project manager will want a percentage of the Capital sum, not an hourly rate.
If you believe that effort and skill should determine the reward, then you are not a capitalist.
Does a house increase its capital value because of its "effort"?
More likely because of capital market moves.
@ Chris(m)
If the legal profession is viewed in most quarters with disdain or contempt it has only itself to blame. The public perception that these people are rapacious businessmen guised as honest hardworking professionals is hardly surprising in view of the daily incidence of evidence.
Iain's example is but one of thousands.
Why do other professions seem to have a slightly better reputation? Is it perhaps because the public are not quite as stupid as most lawyers seem to believe?
The law is an unregulated industry, no more and no less. The short answer to Iain's question 'Am I being taken for a ride?' is 'Yes you certainly are'.
Chris M - The stupidity and arrogance displayed on the internet can be irritating as well as a bit of a larff. You, not knowing me at all, have made the assumption that I am "prejudiced" (scare word - used instead of "don't like") solicitors. What a moonbat assumption.
For multi-million pound inheritances which are intricate and complex, I can see that the lawyers have to indemnify themselves - although I am still not persuaded that it is the client who should finance the insurance payments.
I am assuming that Iain's godmother was a middle class lady of fair to middling means and that her Will would be straightforward. A decent solicitor would do the probate for a fee. Trying to cut herself in on the action is disgusting and disgraceful.
Re the Hollywood writers, they don't own the movie and shouldn't get a cut unless that is a normal part of the negotiation on a particular basis. Otherwise the lighting man, the sound man, the carpenters who build the set,the actors, the composer of the film music and who also all contribute to the success of the picture should also get a share. Group ownership, aka communism.
People who negotiate a point or two of the gross are hardly communists! The writers think that they have intellectual tile to a portion of the Property. Not "group ownership" - they don't want the lighting man to have a capital interest.
If you don't accept the point that capitalists negotiate capital-related terms, then you're clearly not au fait with the workings of capitalism.
These lawyers think they are entitled to a portion of the capital sum, just as a project manager claims (in the uk 11% according to RICS guidelines) a portion of the "contract sum" of a capital development.
John T - I'm not au faitwith the workings of capitalism! I see! "These lawyers", as you term them, think they can cut themselves in on the action while doing nothing to justify their claim.
They get so much an hour - most of it, for simple work, grossly inflated. Cutting themselves a slice of the action is gravy. Money for doing absolutely nothing, as they've already received their fee for their services.
Yes Verity, they can charge what they like, and in a free world, we can take it or leave it. Good for Iain.
Having said that, their fees per hour would be even more inflated if they didn't take aslice of the capital.
They would argue (by the way I have no personal interest!) that their charges have to cover the cost of ancillary staff, accommodation (£350 per sq metre p.a. in London), and all the other costs that most service providers can hide within their simple global fee quote.
JohnT - Of course they can charge what they like. But will they get it? The attorney Iain went to didn't.
I think cutting themselves in for a slice of money that was left to someone else is indefensible. They should determine what their charges should be, and charge that.
I've just this minute heard back from my lawyer friend in Texas - which has a very strong legal system - and he says no. The attorney charges an hourly rate. End of story.
So Verity still knows next to nothing about capitalism.
Any self-respecting lawyer, socialist Texans included, will charge a rate that delivers them a decent profit.
Very few will give a quote without knowing the size of the estate.
It's not a distasteful slice of the bequest, but a percentage of the sum. The difference is presentation.
The reason lawyers help themselves to other peoples money is because they want the loot. Simple as that.
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