tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post8608069278456518848..comments2024-03-04T17:54:32.559+00:00Comments on Iain Dale's Diary: Ken Clarke Is Right: Prison Doesn't Always WorkIain Dalehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03270146219458384372noreply@blogger.comBlogger57125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-22061331350447159162010-07-02T10:09:26.830+01:002010-07-02T10:09:26.830+01:00If you saw this being discussed on Question Time l...If you saw this being discussed on Question Time last night, with Alan Johnstone saying "lock 'em up) & Iain Duncan Snoth obviously sioncereely & correctly explaining what the problems are & what should be done I think you will agree that that IDS gas done more to "detoxify" the Tory brand than all Caneron's trips to glaciers & hoody hugging combined. The combination of sincerety & complete command of the facts is unbeatable. Also very rare in our politics.neil craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09157898238945726349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-60768072038261937352010-07-01T23:28:34.456+01:002010-07-01T23:28:34.456+01:00Large numbers in prison are still the fine default...Large numbers in prison are still the fine defaulters who wont pay and prefer to do a few days inside to wipe out a large debt ....and then walk off back to the pub with a 'resettlement grant' courtesy of the taxpayer.Cynichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04852867933348403214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-59263232023459534632010-07-01T17:28:12.607+01:002010-07-01T17:28:12.607+01:00If this policy is followed just watch crime incre...If this policy is followed just watch crime increase and there will be more people frightened to leave their home.<br />Prison has become far to free and easy, it should be somewhere people fear to go <br /><br />The Tory party is now soft on crime.Johnny Norfolkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16900659617233793880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-24568039606432922192010-07-01T17:19:20.480+01:002010-07-01T17:19:20.480+01:00The last Labour Government was keen to remind us t...The last Labour Government was keen to remind us that the crime rate was falling. So, is it coincidence that this occurred alongside the highest number of people imprisoned? Also, what penalty would there be for all the unpaid fines and people who persistently refuse to turn up to see their probation officer? Interestingly, we imprison fewer people per 1,000 crimes committed than any other country where these stats are kept! That's one for the "bleeding heart liberals" to think about.bantambabehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14359793810435878640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-88405853514063384032010-07-01T16:38:22.866+01:002010-07-01T16:38:22.866+01:00Redbull - what you must keep in mind is that most ...Redbull - what you must keep in mind is that most people who commit crime are chaotic with very little in way of 'self control'. They tend to live in the moment and cannot envisage consquences. This is not mitigation - it is merely explaining why they are highly unlikely to think things through as you or I or most rational people do. Unfortunately by the time most of these people reach adulthood the lack of self-control is ingrained. You may be interested in reading about Hirshci and Gottfredson's 'control theory'.Lady Finchleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03695379463537122656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-33989755950734902112010-07-01T14:04:35.937+01:002010-07-01T14:04:35.937+01:00I'm not sure whether the numbers we send to pr...I'm not sure whether the numbers we send to prison are right, but we need to send the right people to prison. People on their 20th burglary offence need to be sent to jail for a fair long time; people should never be sent to jail for non-payment of council tax, TV licence etc. Or for that matter graffiti artists. Or for that matter, people who cause death by dangerous driving, or drunk drivers, unless they are repeat offenders.<br /><br />Prison should be to lock those who are an active and significant danger to society away and protect society from them. Murderers, rapists, robbers, petty burglars are a danger to society. Non-payers of state bills are not. People who have made single catastrophic driving errors are not. The vast majority of fraudsters are not. The state must find better ways of dealing with these people, while opening up prison places for those who need to be locked away for everyone else's benefit.The Random Punterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16862478828540538403noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-19275909706664004522010-07-01T13:27:52.166+01:002010-07-01T13:27:52.166+01:00@Sean Haffey
What if the offender is a pensioner ...@Sean Haffey<br /><br />What if the offender is a pensioner with a dodgy hip who couldn't pay their council tax or TV licence?<br /><br />Would they have to tend other peoples gardens?Twighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16698620636313191152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-13844427510136080012010-07-01T09:09:34.470+01:002010-07-01T09:09:34.470+01:00A couple of thoughts.
In the Telegraph today is a...A couple of thoughts.<br /><br />In the Telegraph today is a table indicating our prison population per 100,000 population is similar to Spain and Australia, although a good deal higher than France and Germany.<br /><br />In the Sunday Times this week, the redoubtable Jeremy Clarkson suggested that we have more prisoners doing work in the community. Of course he went OTT, but if, for example, convicted people could do trimming of verges, council workers could be freed to keep OAPs gardens tidy. (I know many OAPs are justifiably proud of their gardens, but for others it becomes too much). <br /><br />I am sure that there are many other tasks in the community that could similarly be done by people convicted of low-grade offences, while they live at home at no cost to the taxpayer.Seanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03234085314662011091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-55820947405599317622010-07-01T00:47:40.544+01:002010-07-01T00:47:40.544+01:00Surely not a ruse to ensure certain former Palace ...Surely not a ruse to ensure certain former Palace of Westminster "fraudsters" (not until proven guilty of course) do not end up where they actually belong?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15333501249832195399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-87851646947879326132010-06-30T21:36:56.135+01:002010-06-30T21:36:56.135+01:00Off topic - but last night on the BBC news there w...Off topic - but last night on the BBC news there was a long piece about how Merkel was under pressure because her party's candidate might nor win the job of federal President. If he did not it was game over for Merkel (and of course her austerity policies -- hint hint hint).<br /><br />Well - he did win. Will the BBC make a start on its own economic austerity package by sacking their partial and incompetent reporter?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-86291700883253535982010-06-30T20:49:53.402+01:002010-06-30T20:49:53.402+01:00Jane -
1)Agreed in full
2)Most of the IPP cases I...Jane - <br />1)Agreed in full<br />2)Most of the IPP cases I know of should have been lifed off with bigger tariffs. Anyway prison is the best place for dangerous people and the longer they are there the better in my view. Bit of a red herring in terms of short sentence debate.<br />3)Short term sentences are problematic but normally come after everything else has been tried ad nauseum. In my view most drug offenders shouldn't even be in the CJS, they should be getting prescribed heroin etc in a safe way. Solve the drug problem by realising its not actually a problem, its just a reality of human existence.<br />4)Most people on remand should be there. Its very hard getting someone remanded. Normally it is due to concerns re further offending. Are you offering your house to be burgled by a prolific burglar who gets bail? No, me neither.<br />5)Prisoners recalled - If you commit an offence while you are already serving a sentence, but have been granted the privelige of being released early so you can start building a better life, why shouldn't you get recalled. How does turning a blind eye help to rehabilitate anyone.<br />Any use of statistics and personally I stop listening as they have been fiddled with in all directoins so much as to be meaningless. Courts are busier than ever, Police are busier than ever, Probation is busier than ever, but crime has gone down. Good trick if you can pull it off I suppose.<br />As for letting offenders replace council workers? Surely you don't mean that. <br />It is unpalettable but we need to get tougher on crimes of choice i.e people who do not have addictions etc, violence and financial offending. More emphasis on culpability leading to harsher penalties. Redbull is right, most of the offenders I know, know full well the state cannot deploy and consequences that they can't easily handle. Rehabilitation can only be successful with those that want to change or are at least ambivalent and it can take years. Crime is a symptom of a liberal capitalist society and the current emphasis on saving money by simply rehabilitating people is ridiculously facile. Everythog Ken suggests has been happening for years.Garethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16448521101087639084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-66742645743848927342010-06-30T20:47:14.737+01:002010-06-30T20:47:14.737+01:00@ Jane
Nicely done.@ Jane<br /><br />Nicely done.Unsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08307116169498533047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-24361645537409376302010-06-30T20:12:38.384+01:002010-06-30T20:12:38.384+01:00Blogger IanVisits said...
The idea is to have fe...Blogger IanVisits said...<br /><br />The idea is to have fewer criminals on the streets - thanks to rehabilitating them so that they are no longer criminals.<br /><br />Dream on my friend, dream on!Catosayshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02885445175868379750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-12480448662257797222010-06-30T18:00:08.367+01:002010-06-30T18:00:08.367+01:00I think people really overcomplicate this issue. I...I think people really overcomplicate this issue. If I was about to commit a crime, I would make two quick risk assessments/calculations;<br />(1) What are the chances I will get caught? <br />(2) If I did get caught, what consequences would I face?<br />The answers to the above two questions would determine what I then did.<br />I agree that the administration of the penal system is utterly lamentable and that the issues of inadequate rehabilitation programmes, and drugs use in prison need to be seriously and urgently addressed. However, these are issues of administrative incompetence/ corruption(?). They are not intended to be part of the "prison experience", so I think we are on shaky ground if we are suggesting that these are reasons in themselves why short term prison sentences 'do not work'.<br />Going back to the risk assessment above: I (and I think most people) would be a lot less inclined to commit a crime if the answer to (2) was "prison", rather than "a fine" (which I wouldn't need to pay if I was poor) or "community service" (which I wouldn't need to do if I could get my doctor to write a me note). I also believe that I would be EVEN LESS inclined to commit a crime if the answer to (2) was "prison, where there's no telly, the food is crap, and I have to work all day".<br />So that's one less crime already! :-)Redbullhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09677365736200419133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-46795227677797978592010-06-30T17:49:03.528+01:002010-06-30T17:49:03.528+01:00To Edward - 'Hold prison's and probation a...To Edward - 'Hold prison's and probation accountable for reoffending' REALLY! I thought the offender was accountable. What happened to conservative ideas on personal responsibility? I think I have stepped into cloud cuckoo land. And to IanVisits - No sorry, offending is a personal failing and not one we should all wring our hands about unless we did it or helped them do it. THis idea that all offenders are automatons driven by drug lust is wrong. Many of them make rational choices to offend because they can handle the possible consequences. Uncomfortable but true I am afraid.Garethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16448521101087639084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-46752994298934527472010-06-30T17:40:02.748+01:002010-06-30T17:40:02.748+01:00There are problems with all this. Firstly there is...There are problems with all this. Firstly there isn't a 'bang em up' culture and it is almost impossible that 'an otherwise decent member of society' would get sent to prison for one 'mad' mistake, unless that mistake was very serious indeed. That is just nonsense. The reason there are so many people in prison is because crime has gone through the roof. Secondly, rehabilitation isn't something you can do to someone who has very little interest in it. It's not like painting a fence or mowing the lawn. And thirdly, if we are going to have 'rigorously enforced' community orders, what do we do with those who don't/won't comply? Where have you peolple been living? we have been trying to rehabilitate people since court missionaries appeared 100 years ago. The reason so many people on short sentences reoffend is because they are the ones who commit low level crime such as shop thefts and they have entrenched drugs and alcoshol issues. There is an industry currently engaged with these people offering all the support they need. True there could be some tweaking but this whole statement by Ken proves the saying 'Anything is possible if you don't understand the problem'.Garethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16448521101087639084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-16806422302661826412010-06-30T16:34:34.330+01:002010-06-30T16:34:34.330+01:00Having worked in the criminal justice System for 3...Having worked in the criminal justice System for 30 years, I believe Ken Clarke is right. we have reducing crime figures yet our prison population has increased. Why?<br /><br />!. Foreign National Prisoners amount to 11,500. Most of these people are drug couriers. Although we introduced legislation in 2008 that those sentenced to over 12 months would be sent to prisons in their own country, we need their consent to do so!! Appeals are rife - breach of human rights etc etc. I believe the government are looking at compulsory removal and about time too. In 2009 we removed 41 prisoners and accepted 64 British prisoners from other countries. Can anyone tell me if other European countries are so lax? I think it is a disgrace and a reason too why our legal aid bill is high as they all get legal representation.<br /><br />2. The introduction of public protection orders which are indeterminate and are similar to life sentences although with a lower tariff. There are now 13,000 prisoners with this sentence. These were introduced to deal with cases of those who pose serious risk to the community but their index offence did not warrant a lengthy prison sentence. In my opinion judges are imposing too many and we have not resourced the numbers. We are often sued by prisoners when prison establishments fail to follow procedures in their sentence planning. The are jamming the prison system.<br /><br />3. Too many people being sentenced to short terms of imprisonment. There were 3821 serving under 6 months last month and 2546 between 6-12 months. Useless in terms of any rehabilitation (leading to reduced offending) - we are housing them at huge cost.<br /><br />4. Prisoners on remand 10,545 of which 6,807 are untried. Surely we do not need to remand so many offenders. I suggest more bail provision run by the private sector - much, much cheaper. Further, we need more hostels for addiction problems and mental health issues. Such people are often remanded for their own safety and not because they pose harm to the community.<br /><br />5. Prisoners recalled for breaching licence supervision requirements. There were 5,300 recalls which is staggering. The largest proportionate increase last years were for theft offences.<br /><br />Not very good. Home Office statistics also indicate the rises in length of sentence between May 2009-2010. 17% were under 6 months. Dreadful situation.<br /><br />Of course we need to look at the huge cost of containing so many prisoners. We so not commit more crimes - we do have more offences than other countries. We also live in fear as out red tops try to persuade us we live in a crime ridden country. Fear far outweighs.<br /><br />At one time offenders were able to work in the community much more than they are permitted to do so now. The jobs they once did are now undertaken by council workers. Those offenders who do not pose a risk should be undertaking community service work - their services will be needed as councils reduce their workforce. Those not in work should be made to have education classes as part of a sentence as too many prisoners are illiterate.<br /><br />We could do so much to reduce offending and reduce costs. We should not have the debate that Ken Clarke has started. Good for himJanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02994647215036594006noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-2563693268633650902010-06-30T16:30:28.421+01:002010-06-30T16:30:28.421+01:00Oh yes and also graffiti artists - mostly young gu...Oh yes and also graffiti artists - mostly young guys in their 20's who become targets for rape and are unable to work after release because they have a prison record. And for what? Some letters on a wall? Judges need to get real and stop jailing easy targets and get the real crims inside.Lady Finchleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03695379463537122656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-73244757339246987262010-06-30T16:27:02.794+01:002010-06-30T16:27:02.794+01:00Jacquie R make a great point. And yes what about ...Jacquie R make a great point. And yes what about the CSA and debt deafulters (dock their pay like they do in the States and attach their property) and the mentally ill? Leave it to the desperate Labour party and Right Wing red necks to act like we are talking about rapists and paedos.Lady Finchleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03695379463537122656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-31805581192133120112010-06-30T16:18:34.008+01:002010-06-30T16:18:34.008+01:00"Many offenders who are sent to prison for sh..."Many offenders who are sent to prison for short term sentences go into prison as normally decent citizens who have made one mad mistake. "<br /><br />Almost no-one goes to prison for "one mad mistake". It takes a number of offences before you go to prison. It's why we have cautions, community service, suspended sentences and so forth (all of which act as deterrents for the majority of offenders). Jail is already a last resort option.<br /><br />You want to really deal with prison? Provide a safe way to supply heroin and crack cocaine addicts with drugs and you'll reduce the amount of crime to supply people's habits.Tim Almondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13369256383976094670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-78240266605570356472010-06-30T16:04:37.503+01:002010-06-30T16:04:37.503+01:00I agree with much of what Ken Clarke says. After a...I agree with much of what Ken Clarke says. After all it is classic left leaning liberal thought that used to be Labour policy until they felt the need to pretend to be more authoritarian than Michael Howard.<br /><br />Of course the public will have a hard time swallowing this given that Cameron & Co used just about every stabbing and shooting in the past 5 years as a political tool to attack the government with the implicit criticism in each case that Labour was soft on crime, soft on sentencing and too often protected the criminals rather than the victims. They can hardly now complain if the Sun and the Mail doesn't like what they see now that there will be no new prisons, no tougher sentences and a renewed focus on rehabilitating offenders.<br /><br />That said, I commend Clarke for at least trying to tackle this even if ultimately they end up doing nothing.p smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04412693505325590969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-59951175220936876852010-06-30T15:45:34.662+01:002010-06-30T15:45:34.662+01:00Light sentences and lax prison discipline are both...Light sentences and lax prison discipline are both expressions of the perfectly well-founded view that large numbers of those convicted, vastly in excess of the numbers that have always existed at any given time, are in fact innocent.<br /><br />We need to return to a free country's minimum requirements for conviction, above all by reversing the erosion of the right to silence and of trial by jury, and by repealing the monstrous provisions for anonymous evidence and for conviction by majority verdict. And we need to return to proper policing.<br /><br />Then we could and should return to proper sentencing, and to proper regimes in prison. But only then.David Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06839882674758833524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1789513701724988482010-06-30T15:43:57.675+01:002010-06-30T15:43:57.675+01:00There needs to be a sanction to make community pun...There needs to be a sanction to make community punishment work, or some offenders will not turn up to unpaid work, drug treatment programmes etc. If all they get is a telling off, the others will stop turning up as well. These are the people on short term prison sentences, and their attitude is why their reoffending rates are poor. Those who respond to community sentences are not in prison at all. <br />re: JacquieR's death by dangerous driving offender - what do you think the victim's family think the sentence should have been? I doubt that their view would be tempered by the fact that he has A levels.grumpyoldbookwormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09101966726409162091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-54298980000636817712010-06-30T14:25:57.529+01:002010-06-30T14:25:57.529+01:00Criminals must be punished.
Those that offend aga...Criminals must be punished.<br /><br />Those that offend against the mores of society must be penalised.<br /><br />Our mores should not and must not be used, by the offenders to justify their actions or protect them from society's revenge.<br /><br />Prisons must be seen as a place of punishment and criminals must apologise and seek forgiveness from victims prior to rehabilitation. Recidivists clearly show their contempt and should be banged up for a lengthy period with hard labour. Indeed we need to look at the Prison Service and ensure that it is cost effective as possible with inmates made to work. And, notwithstanding any possible bleating from the lefties or Brussels, inmates should be stripped of any rights. Having been irresponsible they cannot rely on the mores on society which they have so cavalierly rejected.<br /><br />We should also I believe, look very closely at the reimposition of capital punishment for murder cases. This would no doubt require a referendum rather than a free parliamentary vote, as it is for the people to decide, those that suffer the crime, not an individuals conscience (MP) when he represents 50,000 people who are then disenfranchised.<br /><br />But, let us never forget, that in a democracy different opinions and viewpoints must be aired and allowed to be aired and contrary positions and views supported.<br /><br />Whilst I disagree with Ken Clarke's broad thrust, he does raise a very valid question regarding justice/prison/rehabilitaion/recidivism/jail and how society needs to be protected.Penfoldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16946700329323417719noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-26541107184826642382010-06-30T14:13:40.793+01:002010-06-30T14:13:40.793+01:00As Toby says above - you very rarely get sent down...As Toby says above - you very rarely get sent down first time. Most people in prison have been through the system many times before they got a custodial sentence. I have a friend who works in the tagging system - she tears her hair out at the ludicrous excuses given by tagged criminals for having gone AWOL, and the idiots on the Bench who effectively say 'Naughty boy, don't do it again' and let them off with no extra punishment. <br /><br />It is fantasy that society can change people over night from criminals to honest members of society. People only change when they want to - usually when they get a bit older, have a bit more to lose by going inside - relationships, children, jobs etc etc. In the mean time the best we can do is lock people up away from the rest of us to prevent them doing any more harm.<br /><br />The best rehabilitation would be improved detection rates, proper sentences (5 years means 5 years), and no luxuries inside.Sobershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11407417389022146963noreply@blogger.com