tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post8517344917866038674..comments2024-03-04T17:54:32.559+00:00Comments on Iain Dale's Diary: The Kenyan Crisis Must Not Be Allowed to EscalateIain Dalehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03270146219458384372noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-16278984052664412352008-01-31T13:31:00.000+00:002008-01-31T13:31:00.000+00:00Wrinkled Weasel said..."Colonisation of Africa mer...<B>Wrinkled Weasel said...</B><BR/><BR/>"Colonisation of Africa merely halted the natural evolution of the indigenous people, just as the Roman Empire did to us, and so yes, we are indirectly to blame. What happened in Briain? Britons reverted to savagery after 410 AD with 600 years of tribal warfare and effectively wiped away Roman civilisation in this country."<BR/><BR/>Tosh.<BR/><BR/>What happened after the Roman withdrawal was that Britons struggled to maintain Roman civilisation despite barbarian invasions by Germans and Vikings.<BR/><BR/>By 1066 they had largely succeeded with Britain being the most prosperous and democratic place in Europe. Then the Normans came and, after getting lucky at Hastings, ruined it.<BR/><BR/>The aftermath of the British empire in Africa is rather different as the main struggle is to steal more 'aid' than anyone else.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-26482881774101567902008-01-30T17:52:00.000+00:002008-01-30T17:52:00.000+00:00We are constantly made to feel guilty about coloni...We are constantly made to feel guilty about colonialism but here is another example of a country that has since reverted to tribal savagery.<BR/><BR/>Colonisation of Africa merely halted the natural evolution of the indigenous people, just as the Roman Empire did to us, and so yes, we are indirectly to blame. What happened in Briain? Britons reverted to savagery after 410 AD with 600 years of tribal warfare and effectively wiped away Roman civilisation in this country.<BR/><BR/>The same is happening in Africa and frankly, intervention is not going to solve it and neither is uncontrolled migration into Europe, by people with poor hygeine standards, who believe in Witchcraft, no birth control and eating vegetables to prevent HIV.Wrinkled Weaselhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05291551539649118631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-33984557229480937722008-01-30T14:37:00.000+00:002008-01-30T14:37:00.000+00:00This is an absolute tragey. I have not heard anyth...This is an absolute tragey. I have not heard anything from the Government, or even the opposition parties. It is a travesty that a country that was seen as being a showcase for Africa has descended into such violence. There is no justification for it, not even a rigged election. Let's hope Kofi Annan can bring some sense to the country.Arden Foresterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03209824268395133604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-56274372012534631392008-01-30T14:26:00.000+00:002008-01-30T14:26:00.000+00:00Pete - You don't seem to understand the phrase.Pete - You don't seem to understand the phrase.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-64736266719652804832008-01-30T14:23:00.000+00:002008-01-30T14:23:00.000+00:00Send in ‘The Met’ – they have some first class lea...Send in ‘The Met’ – they have some first class leaders, errm managers is probably the better word who could consult widely with the main factions and then draw up a training plan incorporating all the best from the implementation of the MPS Diversity Strategy, better still send the whole bloody Diversity Directorate out there and they might so something useful for once in their respective lives. It’s that or let the entire Kenyan population come over here – there’s still a bit of room left here in Kent!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-69836982663738113672008-01-30T14:15:00.000+00:002008-01-30T14:15:00.000+00:00I post this (albeit dated) snippet because there's...I post this (albeit dated) snippet because there's no feedback from Iain on the billions of wasted aid.<BR/><BR/>"Africa’s begging bowl leaks horribly. In August 2004, an African Union report claimed that Africa loses an estimated $148 billion annually to corrupt practices, a figure which represents 25 percent of the continent’s Gross Domestic Product (GDP). Two years earlier at an African civic groups meeting in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, Nigeria’s President, Olusegun Obasanjo, claimed that “corrupt African leaders have stolen at least $140 billion (£95 billion) from their people in the decades since independence” (The London Independent, June 14, 2002. Web posted at www.independent.co.uk). But these are gross underestimates. According to one UN estimate, $200 billion or 90 percent of the sub-Saharan part of the continent’s gross domestic product was shipped to foreign banks in 1991 alone."<BR/><BR/>....and so it continues to go, Mr. Briggs.<BR/>It is not we who should be ashamed but those who receive the aid.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-20592482248339187622008-01-30T14:10:00.000+00:002008-01-30T14:10:00.000+00:00Nato's intervention by force in the Balkans saved ...Nato's intervention by force in the Balkans saved half a million lives, so in principle I believe we are right to act where we can perceive a successful outcome. Impossible/not worth it in this case - the scale of the thing is too small, and we wouldn't have any support from nearby African nations. I believe we're doing all we should, and I certainly don't believe we should wash our hands on principle of the suffering of innocent people.<BR/><BR/>By the way, if a "one-worlder" believes there is only one world, why is that such a pejorative? There is only one that humans inhabit, isn't there?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-67094659174189541522008-01-30T13:49:00.000+00:002008-01-30T13:49:00.000+00:00Troll One-Worlder Paddy Briggs refers to me as "ig...Troll One-Worlder Paddy Briggs refers to me as "ignorant and uncaring" and I resent it. I am not ignorant. And he believes "the right way forward" is to work "in partnership with the UN and the EU". How's life up there on Planet Zog, Mr Briggs?<BR/><BR/>We have conflicts in our own country to worry about and unless there is a large shovelling out of people whose beliefs and crackpot religion are inimicable to advanced Western thought and civil behaviour, we will be going through the same thing on our own streets.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-29911403651097591402008-01-30T13:02:00.000+00:002008-01-30T13:02:00.000+00:00Paddy Briggs obviously lives in cloud-cuckoo land....Paddy Briggs obviously lives in cloud-cuckoo land.....<BR/>....or on another planet. Uranus?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-10471730144224996722008-01-30T12:23:00.000+00:002008-01-30T12:23:00.000+00:00To Paddy Briggs You are wrong . Other than as hum...To Paddy Briggs <BR/><BR/> You are wrong . Other than as humans inhabiting the same planet which is a very vague qualification , we have absolutely no duty of care to Kenya . <BR/><BR/> This is an ideal situation for the UN to get itself involved in and monitor etc . <BR/>Thats as far as it goes . <BR/><BR/>Or are you personally volunteering ?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-27541657203955473912008-01-30T12:17:00.000+00:002008-01-30T12:17:00.000+00:00The Ruanda comparison is not strong. Kenya has had...The Ruanda comparison is not strong. Kenya has had a relatively stable relatively democratic regime since independence. Ruanda had been run on racial grounds since Belguim left - indeed the massacre Clinton refers to was merely the latest of several, nor indeed are the good democrats running the place necessarily any better than the evil killers they displaced. The media is silent on the fact that the killing was started by somebody, almost certainly the good democrats, shooting down the President's plane. The earlier ones went essentially unreported in the western media because downloading satellite phots wasn't so easy & without pictures there is no story.<BR/><BR/>Doesn't mean it hasn't been nasty in Kenya lately but accuracy & sense of proportion are needed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-970308378838641902008-01-30T10:41:00.000+00:002008-01-30T10:41:00.000+00:00Man in a Shed said..."Once people start thinking a...<B>Man in a Shed said...</B><BR/><BR/>"Once people start thinking as ethnic groups and feel threatened there appears to be no limit on what they might do. (Let us not be so arrogant as to think we are above it.)"<BR/><BR/>We're not above it and we will be doing the same in two or three decades. Inevitable, after the Thatcher-Blair years.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-73228616991723834692008-01-30T10:17:00.000+00:002008-01-30T10:17:00.000+00:00WHO CARES!!! If they want to act like primitives l...WHO CARES!!! If they want to act like primitives let 'em get on with it. The only thing i'd like to know from a Kenyan is what exactly does 'ungawa' mean? Handy to know when watching Tarzan or Smokey and the Bandit 2.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-14867932447960743912008-01-30T09:22:00.000+00:002008-01-30T09:22:00.000+00:00IainYes – spot on. This is real politics – politic...Iain<BR/><BR/>Yes – spot on. This is real politics – politics that matters and, incidentally, the type of issue that brings many decent people into politics in the first place. Johnny Norfolk’s and raedwald’s posts were vile (and Verity’s beneath contempt as usual) , but not untypical of the type of reaction that you find in the grass roots amongst the ignorant and the uncaring. Fortunately I doubt that any serious politician of any Party would agree with them. Britain has a duty of care to Kenya (it has to Zimbabwe as well, but that’s another story). Having said that I do think that the right way forward is to work in partnership with the UN and the EU to try and broker a formula to help. Individual nations rarely succeed (cf Norway in Sri Lanka) these days, but international agencies may be more successful.Paddy Briggshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17847108655078927970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-69630519236148294302008-01-30T08:21:00.000+00:002008-01-30T08:21:00.000+00:00While the great and the good muse about tribal con...While the great and the good muse about tribal conflict in far away places, some of us are more concerned with the structural foundations now laid in England for civil war within the next few decades.<BR/><BR/>The social experiment known as 'multiculturalism' has, since the end of WW2 spawned a number of strongly growing ghettos built around ideology incompatible with mainstream society.<BR/><BR/>Worse still, this ideology is taking hold in many countries across the planet.<BR/><BR/>Worse still, the fertility rate of the self segregating section of the population that wish to cut themselves off from the evils of mainstream society runs at over 5 children per couple.<BR/><BR/>Worse still, - the self segregating , growing, ghettos aren't isolated from the source of this poionous ideology. Thanks to modern technology: the internet, satellite tv, international calls and airliners, and thanks to fears by the authorities in our country that they have no business 'interfering' with honour killings, forced marriages, female genital mutilation and threats of violence for 'cultural' reasons.<BR/><BR/>Never mind the rest of the world.... trouble here at home is fomenting.<BR/><BR/>When is a major party going to start doing something about it?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-49519690124360152852008-01-30T07:07:00.000+00:002008-01-30T07:07:00.000+00:00Not being a military man, I have no idea whether s...Not being a military man, I have no idea whether sending in troops would work. My guess is that you'd need a massive force and that it would have to be prepared to kill Kenyans if necessary. European or American soldiers Kenyans? <BR/><BR/>The situation in Kenya is truly horrendous. I have friends in Tanzania who are terrified about the possibility of a Rwanda-like melt down. <BR/><BR/>One of the primary causes of this is that the 'big men' who gain power in Africa have no regard whatsoever for their people. They literally become addicted to money and once in power have unfettered access to an endless supply of their drug. Kibaki sees what Mugabe has achieved by allowing chaos to reign in Zimbabwe and therefore has every incentive to accelerate, rather than halt, the breakdown. <BR/><BR/>To be honest, I see no solution to this. The UN (dominated, as it is, by people who would rather like to be in Kibaki's position) is impotent and, for exactly the same reasons, other African nations are unlikely to intervene.<BR/><BR/>In Britain we had a more evenly balanced power structure - Magna Carta and the 1688 Bill of Rights, backed by a powerful parliament, ensured that no one like Kibaki could emerge. <BR/><BR/>Kibaki and his like are more like mafia gangsters than rulers. All those at the top of the tree are in their pockets. <BR/><BR/>Sorry to witter on, but this is a very complex situation and I've only scraped the surface!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-25236568898690129202008-01-30T06:40:00.000+00:002008-01-30T06:40:00.000+00:00Had the elections been seen to be free and fair, t...Had the elections been seen to be free and fair, the current situation would not have arisen. But the usual African jiggery-pokery was clearly in evidence and we now see the results of decent law abiding people feeling cheated and short changed.<BR/><BR/>Having lived in Africa for around 10 years, although I no longer do so, I agree with others here - let them sort themselves out. Same goes for Iraq. We can deal with the eventual winners in due course.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-23358490016239455692008-01-30T06:36:00.000+00:002008-01-30T06:36:00.000+00:00Had the elections been seen to be free and fair, t...Had the elections been seen to be free and fair, this situation would probably not have arisen. But there was the usual jiggery-pokery and we now see the results of decent people feeling short changed.<BR/><BR/>Having lived in Africa for the better part of 10 years, although I no longer do so, I agree with others here - let them sort themselves out. Same goes for Iraq. We can deal with the eventual winners in due course.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-34225016580706642482008-01-30T04:25:00.000+00:002008-01-30T04:25:00.000+00:00Abul Rahmin: "Did Cameron even issue a statement ...Abul Rahmin: "Did Cameron even issue a statement condemning the violence?"<BR/><BR/>Why should he? We wouldn't want to be colonialist and interfere with the well-managed affairs of independent African nations. <BR/><BR/>God, what an awful new banner, which is the old banner with your old photo and something that looks as though it heads up a bank or a building society. I've never seen anything so trite in my life.<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure I want to appear on something so naff.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-55070297549831551492008-01-30T03:55:00.000+00:002008-01-30T03:55:00.000+00:00abdul-rahim - What duty do we have to "promote und...abdul-rahim - What duty do we have to "promote understanding"?<BR/><BR/>Explain your thoughts. <BR/><BR/>These people have lived on their own continent for millions of years. Promoting "understanding" may be a task better left to them.<BR/><BR/>While these areas were under colonial power, with colonial rules and laws and strictures and methodolodgy, they got on very well. They prospered.<BR/><BR/>Then they fell back into tribalism and thinking they could now do it all by themselves, demanded independence, got it, got 50 years of billions of pounds of aid and ... oh, wait a minute! ... on the agriculturally and minerally richest continent on earth, they failed.<BR/><BR/>It beggars belief.<BR/><BR/>If I were choosing, I'd go and live in titchy, tiny Hong Kong with no vast (or any) areas of agriculture, no diamonds, uranium or other minerals much desired by the West, but heady, twenty-four hours a day with free enterprise and creative thinking and feel myself bloody lucky.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-90081660268492106242008-01-30T00:44:00.000+00:002008-01-30T00:44:00.000+00:00Europe couldn't even straighten out the Balkans a ...Europe couldn't even straighten out the Balkans a few years ago, it's still a powder keg and troops are still there. <BR/><BR/>Given that, what does anyone suggest EU or UK (not yet the same thing but not much longer now) do in Africa ?<BR/><BR/>Send troops and have the UN screeching "colonialism". <BR/><BR/>Same problem as Zimbabwe tho' that hasn't erupted in violence (yet). SA coming soon too.<BR/><BR/>Chris Paul drags US gun crime into it so I'll just say that the majority of that is committed in, guess what, minority areas, killing each other. Surprise.Yak40https://www.blogger.com/profile/10391635243252561168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-52174846231380770982008-01-30T00:28:00.000+00:002008-01-30T00:28:00.000+00:00What has the Conservative party done to help promo...What has the Conservative party done to help promote reconciliation and understanding? Did Cameron even issue a statement condemning the violence?Borgeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05665638314248375642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-23930377448834559042008-01-29T23:42:00.000+00:002008-01-29T23:42:00.000+00:00I am generally opposed to countries interfering in...I am generally opposed to countries interfering in the internal events of other countries. However, with two exceptions. I believe intervention is justified when a country faces a humanitarian crisis and when the people of that country are facing genocide. If action isn't taken to restore order in Kenya both conditions will surely follow. This of course is easier said than done, but to allow another Rwanda would be shameful.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-89800124986761991502008-01-29T23:07:00.000+00:002008-01-29T23:07:00.000+00:00anonymous 10.55 is spot on. Iain you sound like a ...anonymous 10.55 is spot on. Iain you sound like a latter day colonist.<BR/><BR/>They kicked us out they should be allowed to sort themselves out. <BR/><BR/>What IS sad is the ghetto's the majority live in after all the billions poured into African Countries (Kenya included) over many many years.<BR/><BR/>Which African country is a success story?strapworldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18228784526399929300noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-42639041287868684762008-01-29T23:05:00.000+00:002008-01-29T23:05:00.000+00:00"And to those who say it's nothing to do with us, ..."And to those who say it's nothing to do with us, let them just get on with it, I take it you've never been to a concentration camp."<BR/><BR/>Some of us have actually been to concentration camps, Iain.<BR/><BR/>I am with the general tenor of the comment: They have to sort themselves out. <BR/><BR/>And I have a 'dare' for you: Please publish in your blog the total amount of money ($$$) given to ALL our former African Colonies since their respective independences. Your readers will then have some idea of the terrible neglect we have shown.<BR/><BR/>permanentexpat.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com