tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post8072454366807713419..comments2024-03-04T17:54:32.559+00:00Comments on Iain Dale's Diary: The Timing of the AV ReferendumIain Dalehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03270146219458384372noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-55239205125690950802010-07-07T15:54:26.484+01:002010-07-07T15:54:26.484+01:00So why exactly did the Electoral Commission recomm...So why exactly did the Electoral Commission recommend against holding a referendum and an election on the same day?Erskine Mayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11890563553021016531noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-51871317653153242892010-07-07T14:27:02.621+01:002010-07-07T14:27:02.621+01:00The idea that holding several ballots on the same ...The idea that holding several ballots on the same day is confusing is nonsense.<br /><br />At the election in May we had in my area 3 elections - the parliamentary election, the council election and a Mayoral election. <br /><br />All had slightly different mechanisms - one vote FPTP, 3 votes FPTP and sort-of-AV (1st and 2nd prefs only).<br /><br />I think we managed okay. We have an MP, a council and a mayor. No-one found it especially difficult. If the people of Newham could manage, why wouldn't the people of Surrey? or Hampshire? or anywhere else?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-62988987765560825012010-07-07T13:55:28.532+01:002010-07-07T13:55:28.532+01:00@ Indy
Please don't put your words into my mo...@ Indy<br /><br />Please don't put your words into my mouth - one doesn't know where they might have been.<br /><br />You repeatedly refer to a 'London' Government. Are you therefore talking about the London Assembly? Is this just a manifestation of an illogical bias against everything which emanates from outside of your perceived 'country' - despite its representation within the British assembly? <br /><br />You say "the London Government clearly did not even think about the fact that the devolved administrations had elections on the date they proposed for the referendum". Do you have any real evidence for this or is it some sort of assumption on your part?<br /><br />And have you managed to cobble together a definition of 'London-centric', or do you merely wish to pluck instances of suppposed slight from the air and call them all 'London-centric' whatever? <br /><br />I take it that you might be in favour of the withdrawal of all MPs to their respective principalities. Well that'd suit me just fine. The naked and constant bias and prejudice against 'London' - i.e. anything which might be perceived as the south-eastern part of the United Kingdom - is pointless, fruitless and tedious. <br /><br />There's a simple answer. Campaign for true independence - and if your views are echoed by sufficient numbers you may be successful. Very few will be happier at that outcome than myself.Unsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08307116169498533047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-85192067641948342812010-07-07T12:03:26.919+01:002010-07-07T12:03:26.919+01:00Unsworth I regard the fact that the London Governm...Unsworth I regard the fact that the London Government clearly did not even think about the fact that the devolved administrations had elections on the date they proposed for the referendum - never mind consult them - as being London-centric.<br /><br />As far as they are concerned elections in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland either do not count at all or are on a par with council elections in England.<br /><br />In fact they are quite different. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have their own council elections. <br /><br />You could say so what? Why should the UK Government give two hoots about elections in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland - especially as the voters seem strangely resistant to voting Tory!<br /><br />That might be a fair point (from your perspective) except that Cameron and Clegg have burbled on at length about a new "respect" agenda between Westminster and the smaller UK nations. <br /><br />As many of us suspected however this has been shown to be nothing but talk. The new boss turns out to be pretty much the same as the old boss. <br /><br />I do agree with you, though, that the solution is to break up the UK. The more each constituent part of the UK goes its own way the less viable the UK, as a single entity, becomes.Indyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04383904151475839441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-6848474314000903412010-07-07T10:23:29.628+01:002010-07-07T10:23:29.628+01:00So, Indy, you regard a lack of manners as 'Lon...So, Indy, you regard a lack of manners as 'London-centric'? Is this yet another perceived slight to add to the ever growing list of Scottish and Welsh Grudges?<br /><br />Anyway, care to provide a cogent definition of that term?<br /><br />Why do you feel it essential that the British (note!) Government - which just happens to be sited in London - should inform the Scottish Parliament (sited in Edinburgh, not Glasgow) and Welsh Assembly (sited in Cardiff, not Swansea) of its intentions prior to making such announcements. Indeed, do these bodies reciprocate in any way?<br /><br />'London' Government my arse. If you don't want to have a British Government just don't send your MPs to London where they may vote on purely English issues, erect proper borders and declare full Independence for your region. I'd welcome the relief from the constant Celtic and Hibernian tinnitus.<br /><br />Oh and while we're at it, what about Northern Ireland?Unsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08307116169498533047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-81469622347817674712010-07-07T08:49:20.252+01:002010-07-07T08:49:20.252+01:00So British voters can't do what voters in the ...So British voters can't do what voters in the USA do? In most states they'll vote for the President, a Senator, a Congressman, maybe a state governor and state legislators, the odd judge, perhaps the sheriff and the school board as well as county officials. The arguments of those against holding the referendum on the same day as the Welsh and Scottish elections seem like case of finding a pretendy case to me.Richard Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17225331967587897653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-39078641431709215252010-07-07T00:42:46.125+01:002010-07-07T00:42:46.125+01:00AV is a con and A COP OUT!!!
if i vote looney tune...AV is a con and A COP OUT!!!<br />if i vote looney tunes fc!! that should be it not some bunny hugging party next fot example, Porportional should mean what its says!! why shouls any party voted for a PARTY THEY BELIEVE IS SECOND BEST?.......<br /><br />cromwellian@live.co.ukblemsterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18041659320176075078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-60583342833825090602010-07-06T21:22:40.563+01:002010-07-06T21:22:40.563+01:00trevorsden said...
A turnout threshold would not ...trevorsden said... <br />A turnout threshold would not work - it would just concentrate peoples minds and make them turn out.<br /><br />The evidence for this being...?Erskine Mayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11890563553021016531noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-27834830301978577932010-07-06T19:17:57.906+01:002010-07-06T19:17:57.906+01:00Nobody is saying you can't have a referendum U...Nobody is saying you can't have a referendum Unsworth. But it would have been common courtesy for the London Government to have advised the devolved parliaments that they intended to hold a referendum on the same day as elections to the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly before announcing it to the press.<br /><br />They didn't.<br /><br />If that isn't London-centric I don't know what is.Indyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04383904151475839441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-12012912503349307842010-07-06T17:36:24.577+01:002010-07-06T17:36:24.577+01:00@ English Pensioner said...
I don't want PR, b...@ English Pensioner said...<br /><i>I don't want PR, but I do want the constituency sizes to be altered so that they are all approximately the same. However it seems that they are both going to be part of the same packet in the referendum, and I can't have one without the other</i>.<br /><br />Err. Nowhere has anyone remotely suggested there is going to be a PR referendum. You have invented it.Simon Gardnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17189501697856123305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-15320747809559970022010-07-06T10:51:45.700+01:002010-07-06T10:51:45.700+01:00"Your London-centric comment takes no account..."Your London-centric comment takes no account of the recommendation by the Chief Electoral Officer of Canada who chaired the enquiry which followed the voting fiasco during the 2007 Scottish election when almost 150,000 voting papers were discarded."<br /><br />There's always one, isn't there? 'London-centric'? Is this just the usual 'London-phobic' hate stuff emanating from entirely predictable quarters?<br /><br />And are we really all obliged to conform with an opinion expressed by one Canadian official about the conduct of an election held in Scotland? Why are we not allowed simply to have a referendum and decide for ourselves?Unsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08307116169498533047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-71565577306301818692010-07-06T10:31:25.282+01:002010-07-06T10:31:25.282+01:00The possible danger is not that a referendum on AV...The possible danger is not that a referendum on AV will overshadow the Scottish elections.<br /><br />Frankly the debate on AV is of little interest. Scots voters already elect our MSPs and councillors through proportional representation. AV is just tinkering with first past the post. It's not really PR and would make very little difference to the outcome of elections to Westminster. It could be introduced in Scotland without a referendum and very few people would care.<br /><br />No, the potential danger is that it becomes a referendum on the Lib Dem and Tory coalition. <br /><br />However I think that you - and your commentators - may be missing the politics of this in Scotland.<br /><br />The Lib Dems and Tories north of the border are totally opposed to a referendum on independence or even on further financial powers for Scotland despite the fact that there is substantial support for both the concept and the referendum - which is not the case with AV.<br /><br />So the Con Dems are going to have to do two things at once. Argue why a referendum on AV is a good thing while a referendum on extending the powers of the Scottish Parliament is a bad thing.<br /><br />Makes them look a bit daft. Maybe even a bit hypocritical.Indyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04383904151475839441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-77771808831683263972010-07-06T10:25:52.060+01:002010-07-06T10:25:52.060+01:00I don't want PR, but I do want the constituenc...I don't want PR, but I do want the constituency sizes to be altered so that they are all approximately the same. However it seems that they are both going to be part of the same packet in the referendum, and I can't have one without the other.<br /><br />What I do find strange that that many LibDems are moaning about the idea of coalition government and not being able to introduce all their ideas; yet they want PR.<br />As far as I can find out, there is no major country which has PR and which does not have a coalition government. (if there is, perhaps someone would let me know the name of the country concerned!).<br />If the LibDems hate coalitions, why on earth do they want PR?<br /><br />Bring in PR and bring in permanent coalitions!<br />.English Pensionerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15271488641341955140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-32728028804241349262010-07-06T10:14:24.290+01:002010-07-06T10:14:24.290+01:00A turnout threshold would not work - it would jus...A turnout threshold would not work - it would just concentrate peoples minds and make them turn out. Are we really to believe that potential NO voters are going to stay at home in the hope of reducing the turn out? All they will do is hand victory to the YES group. What dopes.<br /><br />Its amazing what rubbish is being talked about this referendum. Its happened as a result of the election, live with it.<br />As a tory I am happy to see the argument and let people vote. Its called Democracy and a few thick Tories and various other self serving politicians should realise that.<br /><br />Another tory woman said that there might be differential turnout in areas where there were local govt elections. ha - has she seen the turn out for LG elections?<br /><br />Why don't people wake up and smell the coffee. The world has turned, get to and start living in and getting the best out of it.<br /><br />Those Scottish elections BTW had complex voting papers whereas the AV vote will, ironically be very simple - you will put a X against either Yes or No. So there really are no problems with holding it on the same day as the local elections.<br /><br />Quite frankly I am not sure which way I will vote and I am not sure that MPS are really in touch with the public on this. I think AV is complex. I prefer a run off between the top 2 to get a 50% majority.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-74658536657623480042010-07-06T10:14:24.291+01:002010-07-06T10:14:24.291+01:00I would have thought that something as important a...I would have thought that something as important as this merits a separate day<br /><br />Cost is irrelevant, something as fundamental as a change to the way we vote for Parliament should be done properly<br /><br />A proper education camapign on the issues would be good - identifying where viewpoints are swayed by party advantage. Perhaps someone from the electoral reform area could inform it?<br /><br />The sort of thing the BBC use do to do, before it hitched its wagon to the leftJannerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11848284897192043240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-14505527111652680522010-07-06T08:21:41.349+01:002010-07-06T08:21:41.349+01:00They should hold it in June 2014 to coincide with ...They should hold it in June 2014 to coincide with the European Parliament elections when there is an election everywhere in the UK.<br /><br />There would then only be the extra cost of printing ballot papers and counting them and there would be no suggestion of any "differential turnout" between areas with and without elections.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-78817101602178465732010-07-06T01:21:51.274+01:002010-07-06T01:21:51.274+01:00They should use the money 80 milluon to hold this ...They should use the money 80 milluon to hold this referendum and turn it into a complete referendum day.<br /><br />1) AV<br />2) Scottish independence<br />3) Parliament for Wales<br />4) parliament for England<br />5) Relationship with EU<br />6) Free Trade zone with <br /> commonwealth<br />7) Leave Afghanistan<br />8) Reinstate the death penalty for <br /> certain crimes<br />9) Joining the Euro<br />10)Keeping the Monarchy<br /><br />The cost would only be marginally higher, turnout would be 75-80% and we would have closure on some important issues affecting our politics for generations<br /><br />The only reason to refuse a referendum on the above is fear of losing the argument by the politicians. In that case how can they represent us.The Purplelinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13824474829595685623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-46033160124378246582010-07-06T01:11:39.216+01:002010-07-06T01:11:39.216+01:00My thoughts on Nick's announcement: http://uke...My thoughts on Nick's announcement: http://ukelect.wordpress.com/2010/07/06/here-we-go-2/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-2003451641718916532010-07-06T00:09:49.221+01:002010-07-06T00:09:49.221+01:00Your London-centric comment takes no account of th...Your London-centric comment takes no account of the recommendation by the Chief Electoral Officer of Canada who chaired the enquiry which followed the voting fiasco during the 2007 Scottish election when almost 150,000 voting papers were discarded. His main recommendation was that elections should be held on separate days and he also accused the Lib/Dem Govt. in Scotland of 'Partisan Political Interests' in holding the two different ballots on the same day. Are the views of the enquiry Chairman of no account when they conflict with the new 'parisan interests' of the new London coalition?ianbeaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07576795897399590179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-27698880419069649072010-07-05T23:21:28.948+01:002010-07-05T23:21:28.948+01:00They could save a bit by not bothering to count th...They could save a bit by not bothering to count the votes.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13775753218753337766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-84047739002589620792010-07-05T22:57:05.198+01:002010-07-05T22:57:05.198+01:00Lets have a very open debate about all the options...Lets have a very open debate about all the options including FPTP, AV, AV+ and PR with as much choice as possible on the ballot.<br />The timing will give the largest possible response otherwise it could end up as a damp squib. <br />The notion that the coalition would crumble under the strain of such as debate is nonsense. <br />It will be a good way of showing that both parties have a separate identity and also allow the party members ans MPs to let off a bit of steam.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06810788783886456639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-62051326279658335122010-07-05T22:01:46.268+01:002010-07-05T22:01:46.268+01:00Should votes in Parliament be based on the current...Should votes in Parliament be based on the current first past the post or upon an AV system?Anoneumousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09825132566496729272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-66640756062617198062010-07-05T21:58:53.555+01:002010-07-05T21:58:53.555+01:00Other countries that hold referendums on the same ...Other countries that hold referendums on the same day as elections do so when there are national elections and therefore there is uniformity. The problem with holding a referendum on the same day as local elections and elections to the Scottish Parliament and National Assembly for Wales is that only some electors will be electing representatives - there will not be elections in every council in England - and therefore there is a differential incentive to vote.Erskine Mayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11890563553021016531noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-12190131416032470852010-07-05T21:18:23.819+01:002010-07-05T21:18:23.819+01:00Actually Iain what proportion or English council i...Actually Iain what proportion or English council is up next year? Would be interesting if some crunched the number of repective votes in 2007 by party of those that bothered to vote.<br /><br />May find a Tory Minority are alraedy going to the polls that day when you add in all of Scotland and Wales on a higher turnout.Stephen Glennhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03027718551675624433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-73228472300034930602010-07-05T21:01:28.954+01:002010-07-05T21:01:28.954+01:00Well, perhaps the point is that those who oppose M...Well, perhaps the point is that those who oppose May 5th can't be explicit about why that is, because it looks so obviously self-serving. Then again, the argument that it saves money is pretty disingenuous too, if we accept that a change to the voting system is, perhaps, something worth getting right...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com