tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post7742594425523845674..comments2024-03-04T17:54:32.559+00:00Comments on Iain Dale's Diary: Why Are Welsh Tories More Successful Than Scottish Ones?Iain Dalehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03270146219458384372noreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-8963830192898925822010-01-19T01:11:45.890+00:002010-01-19T01:11:45.890+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.colinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06891856307039680374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-67741125009084126052010-01-19T01:09:17.802+00:002010-01-19T01:09:17.802+00:00The takeover of the Unionist Party by the Conserva...The takeover of the Unionist Party by the Conservative Party is at the root of the weakness. It happened a long time ago and is forgotten now.<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unionist_Party_%28Scotland%29#Merger_with_the_UK_Conservative_Partycolinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06891856307039680374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-70364065853693422712010-01-18T19:14:35.070+00:002010-01-18T19:14:35.070+00:00The fault, as so often, is not in our stars, but i...The fault, as so often, is not in our stars, but in ourselves. It is certainly not in the electorate.Hiraethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08745527476050999805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-36792803101643436962010-01-16T17:28:09.683+00:002010-01-16T17:28:09.683+00:00It's always exceedingly interesting to read th...It's always exceedingly interesting to read the thoughts and opinions of others on Scotland, particularly the English right-wing. It is rather like reading a novel with a plot so far fetched it becomes a tragicomedy. Indeed, if I were a vote-seeking Tory in Scotland, going by some of the fantasies paraded here, I'd be embarrassed and mortified. <br /><br />It is interesting to read, for example, that we Scots have a visceral hatred of the English. This is despite the enormous proponderence of English people in all spheres of Scottish public life - from the arts, down through the legal system and across our education system and into politics.<br /><br />Or the rather amusing myth that the Scots are disproportionately dependent on the public sector compared to their English cousins. (Illustrated quite neatly in the fact that public spending, as a proportion of GDP is lower in Scotland than in England). IIRC public sector employment in Scotland is something like 24% of the workforce - only 3 or so per cent than the corresponding figure for England.<br /><br />Funnily enough, state dependence (employment, benefit recipients etc) is much higher in Wales, than it is in Scotland - which rather destroys some of the myths floating about on this thread, unfortunately. <br /><br />Indeed state dependence is far more entrenched in most of England, outside of the SE - areas where the Tories hope to pick up gains. Places such as Birmingham, West Yorkshire, Manchester etc. That is where the real divide is.<br /><br />And one wonders why the Tory party is doing so badly in Scotland?<br /><br />The solution: Tories shouldn't project the failures and shortcomings of their own party by caricaturing Scottish opinion to fit their own prejudices.Components of Independencehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07767199470266200218noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-2222227736294748912010-01-15T23:34:16.353+00:002010-01-15T23:34:16.353+00:00In my own experience it comes down to racism.
The...In my own experience it comes down to racism.<br /><br />The Scots seem to have a visceral hatred for the English (as is shown by our current government).<br /><br />To say that there is no racism between the Welsh and English would be untrue. However, in most cases (IMHO) this does not run very deep. The current government has made such a mess that even safe Labour seats in the pricipality are under threat.<br /><br />From personal experience, the attitude in Wales has undergone a transformation due to Tony Bliar.<br /><br />Just as an example, wearing a "Bo**ocks to Blair" shirt in the area I frequent results in FAR more agreement than negativity (and I haven't been arrested!).Number 7https://www.blogger.com/profile/02436083183388382494noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-36862225438073780092010-01-15T21:31:38.633+00:002010-01-15T21:31:38.633+00:00Totally agree with Penddu, by the way. The party h...Totally agree with Penddu, by the way. The party has embraced devolution gladly. The best thing the party did was remove Rod Richards and bring in Nick Bourne. David Melding is right in saying that the party should embrace law-making powers for the Assembly, without a referendum. The anti-Assembly crowd will find that they have no-where else to go, and are so small as to be statistically insignificant.<br /><br />The party has put to bed a number of poor candidates, and replaced them with excellent candidates, most of them Welsh, and not a toff among them. Same in local government, for the most part.Hiraethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08745527476050999805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-30283634589313385042010-01-15T21:20:13.120+00:002010-01-15T21:20:13.120+00:00My two cents worth, having been involved in Welsh ...My two cents worth, having been involved in Welsh Conservatism, on and off for the past decade. Firstly, the Welsh Conservatives started off from a higher base. Historically, the party has manaded between 20 and 25% through most of the twentieth century, the difference in seat numbers is because the party's support in thinly spread, especially compared to Labour.<br /><br />Plaid has historically possessed a limited appeal in the South of Wales. However, at the election of 1999, Plaid appeared to have broken through, winning Islwyn and Rhondda, coming second in both Pembrokeshire seats. At the last assembly elections, however, Plaid failed to win back these seats, lost in 2003, and the Conservatives won both Pembrokeshire seats.<br /><br />Nick Bourne has, however, performed a wonderful job in reaching out to non-traditional Conservative voters. The party has sought to shed its image as an 'English' party, with some success. The party has listened, and responded, as well as setting out its stall.Hiraethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08745527476050999805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-26224658124185018512010-01-15T19:30:43.265+00:002010-01-15T19:30:43.265+00:00If you want to know why the Tories do so badly in ...If you want to know why the Tories do so badly in Scotland you need to look first as to why Labour is the main beneficiary for votes in Scotland. <br /><br />Fact is that under Labour there is no incentive for many people to work because their welfare system makes it so attractive not to. <br /><br />Very sadly for Scotland the 30-odd per cent who polls show still support Labour in Scotland are the hard-core clientele.<br /><br />They will vote for it irrespective of plots, coups, divisions and embarrassments because they feel their place on the state payroll – either as claimants or employees is safe, only under a Labour government. <br /><br />Gordon Brown has had no achievements for his country, but buying all these votes with our money has been his achievement for his party. <br /><br />If David Cameron has the courage to incentivise Scotland's government to reduce Scotland's dependency on benefits and state employment, he would do Scotland and his party an immeasurable favour.<br /><br />The most obvious way to do this would be for David Cameron to grant Scotland full fiscal autonomy by which act he would force Scotland to rein in its state spending in order to live within its means.<br /><br />If he is right that Scots have no stomach for independence the latter course of action should hold no fears for him and the future of the Union.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-74483762682855426282010-01-15T17:36:54.142+00:002010-01-15T17:36:54.142+00:00Iain,
sounds like a good topic for a PhD thesis.Iain,<br /><br />sounds like a good topic for a PhD thesis.Strathturrethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02824645626620377993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-2750415260001320412010-01-15T16:51:15.813+00:002010-01-15T16:51:15.813+00:00As others have mentioned, in West-Central Scotland...As others have mentioned, in West-Central Scotland until 60s-70s there was a substantial Orange - Tory vote.<br /><br />I don't think people vote on religous lines in Scotland to any great degree today.Strathturrethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02824645626620377993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-14948962280650472012010-01-15T16:24:55.657+00:002010-01-15T16:24:55.657+00:00Because more Scots than Welsh believe their own pr...Because more Scots than Welsh believe their own propaganda about gaining nothing from the Union.<br /><br />At the next election the Tories look set to achieve something close to an absolute majority of the popular vote in England, so they have a simple remedy. Accept that the Union has run its course and tell the Scots they are going to be independent whether they want to be or not, ignoring the "devolution max" proposal, which is just an attempt by the Scots to have their cake and eat it.<br /><br />Sadly, Cameron will no doubt try to cling to the Union at England's expense.Salmondnethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04135160187810480222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-76693483814929945512010-01-15T15:55:58.561+00:002010-01-15T15:55:58.561+00:00Maggie, Maggie, and Maggie. I can reel off the na...Maggie, Maggie, and Maggie. I can reel off the names of acquaintances by the dozen who will never vote Tory again in their lifetime after the Tatcher years. And the party up here expects it. I live in Darling's constituency, and I've yet to see the conservative candidate in action.Calumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15182157310434717769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-43558937960212392082010-01-15T15:52:07.429+00:002010-01-15T15:52:07.429+00:00Strathturret has a point - much of the historical ...Strathturret has a point - much of the historical working class Conservative vote in Scotland was Unionist (when Unionism meant with Ireland) & anti-Catholic when Labour were conceived of as a Catholic influenced party. Religiouis divisions are far less now so that part of Conservative support has declined.<br /><br /> However Scotland has always been a strongly classic liberal country & I think, the LibDems having given up traditional liberalism, there would be a place for a free market, individualist, liberal party here. Unfortunately as I said before the local Conservatives refuse to be that party which lets the SNP squeze into that niche.<br /><br />Observer is also right that Thatcher's "English nanny" persona grated on us in the same way that Brown's "dour presbyterian" persona grates on so many though not all English. This is unfair but who said politics is fair.neil craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09157898238945726349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-41841497110781038622010-01-15T15:38:43.555+00:002010-01-15T15:38:43.555+00:00Oh, and Michael Forsyth as well, can't forget ...Oh, and Michael Forsyth as well, can't forget him, he did a lot to make the Tories un-electable in Scotland.Observerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08529106853098097239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-79376008843000073052010-01-15T15:29:46.106+00:002010-01-15T15:29:46.106+00:00Scotland is not instinctively anti-Tory. I can re...Scotland is not instinctively anti-Tory. I can remember when Teddy Taylor was the MP for Castlemilk. In the 1950's the Conservatives were the biggest party at one point.<br /><br />There are two words, well three, which summon up why we don't and won't vote Tory.<br /><br />Margaret Hilda Thatcher.<br /><br />When Scotland is independent there will be s Scottish Tory Party who will do well. People, even lefties like myself, like Annabel Goldie. We call her Auntie Bella.<br /><br />But we will not vote for the Tories in any large numbers in a UK context whilst the spectre of Thatcher still looms.Observerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08529106853098097239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-58570329611221888662010-01-15T15:23:15.626+00:002010-01-15T15:23:15.626+00:00Perhaps Wales has more people like some of your &#...Perhaps Wales has more people like some of your 'scottish' commenters (those that loathe their country and fellow citizens with a passion).commentorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10321173541321374705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-44042700663701161842010-01-15T15:20:42.493+00:002010-01-15T15:20:42.493+00:00Alistair has hit the nail on the head, I think. Th...Alistair has hit the nail on the head, I think. Those Scots not lefty inclined are unlikely to be living in Scotland by now...bnzsshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05864389764701176671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-60188314433311077382010-01-15T14:55:55.203+00:002010-01-15T14:55:55.203+00:00The SNP rise in 70s in rural and northern Scotland...The SNP rise in 70s in rural and northern Scotland was about winning the working class Tory Vote. The rural working class had been traditional Liberals and had switched to Tory over Irish home rule. Unions and Labour did not greatly figure in rural Scotland.<br /><br />SNP is now a strong party with lots of good people and an impressive team of ministers. <br /><br />The Tory's cannot find good genuine local candidates. If you have to field a 'landed gentry' or London 'city boy' in Scotland you have little chance.<br /><br />In certain seats I think Lib-Dems have captured middle class Tory votes quite well (NE Fife, Edin west, Borders, etc).Strathturrethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02824645626620377993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-59324117652228858152010-01-15T14:55:47.356+00:002010-01-15T14:55:47.356+00:00Hey, you cannot have it both ways; you cannot slag...Hey, you cannot have it both ways; you cannot slag off Scotland for sponging off the English and then pose as a unionist, which the Tories are, officially anyway.<br /><br />Either, accept the way it is, or let them go their own way. <br /><br />Of course, the price of the Union is the disproportionate subsidy, but I don't think Mr Cameron is going to face that head on anytime soon. Do you?<br /><br />As an English "asylum seeker", here in Scotland because Poliitical Correctness and the absurd levels of Command and Control you get down South just don't work in Plockton, or Fife, or Dundee or Scrabster, or for that matter, East Lothian, I would be quite happy to become a Scottish National when they start handing out passports.Wrinkled Weaselhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05291551539649118631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-57320622357917145572010-01-15T14:45:45.376+00:002010-01-15T14:45:45.376+00:00A lot of the postings here say the the Scottish an...A lot of the postings here say the the Scottish and to a lesser extent the Welsh hate the English. What a sad state of affairs that the three countries that inhabit this island and have been united in a union for many years dislike each other.<br /><br />As an Englishman I don't hate either the Scots or the Welsh with two exceptions: Gordon Brown and Neil Kinnock.Sungei Patanihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17059092510150451922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-91430589076891327632010-01-15T14:22:12.470+00:002010-01-15T14:22:12.470+00:00The Welsh are clearly more attuned and educated an...The Welsh are clearly more attuned and educated and able to take on-board a varied menu of views and make choices.Penfoldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16946700329323417719noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-53905859604107940432010-01-15T14:18:24.727+00:002010-01-15T14:18:24.727+00:00There are more breeding Osprey pairs in Scotland t...There are more breeding Osprey pairs in Scotland than Tories and the Osprey is a protected bird.<br /><br />Apart fro that the Tories in Scotland are just intellectually challenged, perhaps a bit less so than ZaNuLab (North Britainshire Sub branch)<br /><br />The Tories in Scotland, if they are going to survive, this goes for the LibDums too must take on the mantle of being Scottish and not a sub branch of a Londoncentric party. <br /><br />All three Unionist parties in Scotland are run from London.<br /><br />When challenged about Scottish issues their response inevitably is to spend one of their "lives" and make a call to London to get the answer. The SNP takes the pee pee out of the day in, day out.<br /><br />Scotland is polarising into SNP and Labour with the other two being in the same league as the real minority parties in England. All it would take is some of the intelligent Labour Party members in the west of Scotland to for an independence minded true Scottish Labour Party and the game is up for the UK.<br /><br />I wonder what Jim Sillars is thinking right now?<br /><br /><br />wv = Malsies close enough to describe the three Unionist parties in Scotland.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-24265984167759688662010-01-15T14:06:49.049+00:002010-01-15T14:06:49.049+00:00Idiotic slogans from Labour?
Write a slogan and ...Idiotic slogans from Labour?<br /><br /> Write a slogan and then put a question mark after it?<br /><br /> No rich people give money to Labour?<br /><br /> When you use the word 'former' it looks pretty tenuous?<br /><br /> People who work in the private and voluntary sectors are evil. Unless they are Labour supporters?Conandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18028671462205997161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-41238799304948972972010-01-15T14:05:15.638+00:002010-01-15T14:05:15.638+00:00Because Scotland has become a nation of parasites....Because Scotland has become a nation of parasites.<br /><br />BTW, I'm Scottish, before anyone starts.Colinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16949877777934292635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-41771471559056063572010-01-15T13:18:23.397+00:002010-01-15T13:18:23.397+00:00Normal levels of support for the Tories in Wales a...Normal levels of support for the Tories in Wales are about 21 or 22%, so 32% may look impressive especially with Labour nose-diving, but however good a 10% increase in support is at a General Election it needs to be a uniform swing to really dent Labour’s stranglehold in Wales and to genuinely count as a step change in Welsh politics which many people inside and outside Wales seem to want to believe those levels of support need to be repeated in the National Assembly elections for the Tories in 2011 – something I doubt will happen.<br /><br />I also take issue with people saying that the increase in support its down to Tory AM’s in the National Assembly for Wales changing their minds on devolution, AM’s and their leader Nick Bourne are out of step with the majority of the Tory Party in Wales (as one of your commentators said) who are still anti devolution for the most part, after all Wales elected its first UKIP MEP last June, if the pro devolution Welsh Tories have the wide appeal many claim they do, then they would have won 2 seats not 1 and increased their vote by more than the 2%.<br /><br />I would put the Tories rise down to a mixture of the Tories reinvigorating their core vote, the<br />poor performance from Plaid Cymru and the Liberal Democrats in capturing voters attention, an awful lot of people being disillusioned and fed up with the Labour Party and not voting and those independent Welsh voters (many closet Tories) telling pollsters they will vote Conservative as they always have.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com