tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post7718918521522071410..comments2024-03-04T17:54:32.559+00:00Comments on Iain Dale's Diary: Why Doesn't the Pope Just Join the BNP & Have Done With It?Iain Dalehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03270146219458384372noreply@blogger.comBlogger108125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-53063944865653598822008-12-24T13:32:00.000+00:002008-12-24T13:32:00.000+00:00Despairing - heaven forfend a shepherd tends his f...Despairing - heaven forfend a shepherd tends his flock. <BR/><BR/> Whaddya want? What? Do you want Superman, do you want the omnipotent grand poobah? <BR/><BR/> Why not just have a man eh? Why not just have a man instead? Someone who shows us we're weak, we're tired and lost, someone who shows us we could do better.<BR/><BR/> Sure the Roman church has a history, but to carry the sins of the father to those of the son leaves no room for hope, change, redress or spirit.<BR/><BR/> There's no way to impart faith, to donate it like a gift except to say Happy Christmas dude and all the best for 2009. Hope it's a great one for you & yours.Dick the Prickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02683095612320513712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-73797027655750141232008-12-24T12:57:00.000+00:002008-12-24T12:57:00.000+00:00Half-blood - maybe you're right, but I would be mo...Half-blood - maybe you're right, but I would be more likely to believe your interpretation if this Pope hadn't already developed a clear style of throwaway superficially innocent remarks in small lectures to private audiences that clearly have catastrophic, threatening, racist or homophobic implications. We need only review the track record so far - calculated insults against Islam, against people of other Christian demoninations and now against Gays.<BR/><BR/>In politics this is known as "playing to the base" but given the particular role of religious leaders and the dismal oppressive history of the Roman church, it's appalling that the largest religion has chosen as it's leader a man who holds such retrograde views.<BR/><BR/>Presumably the next step is to denounce us Brits as protestating spawn of the devil. In private and subtly hinted of course.DespairingLiberalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02903904463236135611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-7359887339199156602008-12-24T12:16:00.000+00:002008-12-24T12:16:00.000+00:00Despairing Liberal, if something is "clear" then i...Despairing Liberal, if something is "clear" then it is not "between the lines." Make up your mind. <BR/><BR/>Better yet, examine the text. He was talking about marriage. It is quite something if the leader of one of the world's largest organisations cannot express a deeply held personal belief in private without a lot of stupid people accusing him of homophobia on the basis of the lies of the media all desperate for a story.The Half-Blood Welshmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05072936624444891100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-43692907260645828952008-12-24T10:59:00.000+00:002008-12-24T10:59:00.000+00:00Why do you make the rather outrageous allegation t...Why do you make the rather outrageous allegation that when the pope says "gays" he means "paedos"? Are you a mind reader or just using an emotional slur?Andyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15755490516141328662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1046393860552441352008-12-24T10:44:00.000+00:002008-12-24T10:44:00.000+00:00Get a full refund and piss off if you don't want i...Get a full refund and piss off if you don't want it.Dick the Prickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02683095612320513712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-70857362466781629642008-12-24T09:52:00.000+00:002008-12-24T09:52:00.000+00:00Andrew,One of the biggest fractures in the world i...Andrew,<BR/><BR/>One of the biggest fractures in the world is over religion. <BR/><BR/>Religion, specifically the Abrahamic kind, is all about power and control. It is Authoritiarian (obey or else) and Totalitarian (only our version is right). It is marketing, PR, spin, falsehood, illogic, hear-say, oppression, ritual. It is not rational. The rational view states that Jesus was a man like all others and a few people got carried away, Paul especially ( who I consider to be a PR and Marketing guru). <BR/><BR/>At least with soap powers, Daz followers do not want to ban Omo's.Roger Thornhillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03591327286533118901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-52476436140688609692008-12-24T09:49:00.000+00:002008-12-24T09:49:00.000+00:00I wonder if the Pope has seen this?http://www.yout...I wonder if the Pope has seen this?<BR/>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCzbNkyXO50 <BR/>Gay scientists isolate the Christian gene.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16155867219631936474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-26829468450618632462008-12-24T06:39:00.000+00:002008-12-24T06:39:00.000+00:00AlexP, etc, what precisely do you think then that ...AlexP, etc, what precisely do you think then that the Pope meant by this bit-:<BR/><BR/>"That which has come to be expressed and understood with the term 'gender' effectively results in man's self-emancipation from Creation (nature) and from the Creator."<BR/><BR/>I think it's clear that the media were right and that the "between the lines" message here is that queers are ungodly, even though I agree he didn't come out and say that.<BR/><BR/>The problem is a long history of obsession with sexual matters by the Vatican, against a background where many of the Popes and Cardinals themselves were hypocrites, engaging in everything from peodophilia to full hetereosexuality whilst lecturing their faithful on chastity. There is even a tour in Rome that shows you buildings put up by Papal children over the ages!!<BR/><BR/>So even if you are right and he is being wilfully misunderstood, it will take a lot more than evasive half-meanings to clarify their position.DespairingLiberalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02903904463236135611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-13903964661981885182008-12-24T04:04:00.000+00:002008-12-24T04:04:00.000+00:00Very subtly, or not, you linked the Pope with the ...Very subtly, or not, you linked the Pope with the Hitler Youth. Although he was a member, to alledge that he shared any of their beliefs is utterly wrong, shows factual ignorance and a basic lack of empathy. You may not have literally alledged that, but as a journalist, writer and blogger you should know the potential meaning of your words to your readers, as evidenced in many prior comments. It seems you have fallend prey to misinformed and sloppy journalism, and in part joined the same practice.Jocky Mc Leanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15436811358952891347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-11327771514636080132008-12-24T02:40:00.000+00:002008-12-24T02:40:00.000+00:00I applaud Greg for reading the text and working ou...I applaud Greg for reading the text and working out what the Pope actually said - not something that either I or indeed Iain have got round to doing until now. Thanks!Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12534877962475377350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-32086728021703062802008-12-24T01:56:00.000+00:002008-12-24T01:56:00.000+00:00I do think the lack of understanding and the effor...I do think the lack of understanding and the effort of Charlemagne is disgracefully evident on this thread. Not wanting to be a twat or owt but if you lot are gearing up for a Holy War, well, i'll kinda hire mercenaries if that hokely dokely.<BR/><BR/>Get thy selves a grip. Love your opinions - lovely, lucious, bouncy too - but who the chuff do you think gave you the ability to think this way? Oh gosh, but we all sentient being Ricky with feelings and stuff, we'd have worked it out regardless.<BR/><BR/> Happy Christmas Peeps, God loves love and so does his Son and so does the Holy Ghost.Dick the Prickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02683095612320513712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-62574764433096445162008-12-24T00:37:00.000+00:002008-12-24T00:37:00.000+00:00Machiavelli - wait 'till they get to know us then ...Machiavelli - wait 'till they get to know us then they'll bloody hate us. Is that too much to ask? To accuse the Holy See of Pontification - you gots to love the equation. OK - maybe not.Dick the Prickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02683095612320513712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-22387794990477224442008-12-24T00:24:00.000+00:002008-12-24T00:24:00.000+00:00not sure they're too keen on the catholics...not sure they're too keen on the catholics....................................https://www.blogger.com/profile/09387648864595329094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-57860043200815723882008-12-23T23:35:00.000+00:002008-12-23T23:35:00.000+00:00Thank goodness - sane chaps at last. Happy Chrimbo...Thank goodness - sane chaps at last. Happy Chrimbo dudes.Dick the Prickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02683095612320513712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-58237461539343884992008-12-23T23:06:00.000+00:002008-12-23T23:06:00.000+00:00Everyone, including the Pope, has certain barriers...Everyone, including the Pope, has certain barriers they will not cross, even unprincipled politicians. <BR/>You just cannot expect the Catholic Church to suddenly overturn centuries of religious teachings.<BR/>Just be thankful that the church is not actually persecuting the gay community around the world.<BR/>That is the advance in our generation. It may take several more centuries for attitudes to become more liberal.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06810788783886456639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1322251191835610302008-12-23T22:52:00.000+00:002008-12-23T22:52:00.000+00:00I'm with the Pope on this one!Looks like the Germa...I'm with the Pope on this one!<BR/><BR/>Looks like the Germans are right again.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-14207370712063196252008-12-23T22:44:00.000+00:002008-12-23T22:44:00.000+00:00Here apparently is an accurate translation of what...Here apparently is an accurate translation of what the Pope said:<BR/><BR/>"Since faith in the Creator is an essential part of the Christian Creed, the Church cannot and should not limit itself to transmitting to its faithful only the message of salvation. She has a responsibility for Creation, and it should validate this responsibility in public.<BR/><BR/>In so doing, it should defend not just the earth, water and air as gifts of Creation that belong to everyone. She should also protect man from destroying himself.<BR/><BR/>It is necessary to have something like an ecology of man, understood in the right sense. It is not outdated metaphysics when the Church speaks of the nature of the human being as man and woman, and asks that this natural order be respected.<BR/><BR/>This has to do with faith in the Creator and listening to the language of creation, which, if disregarded, would be man's self-destruction and therefore a destruction of God's work itself.<BR/><BR/>That which has come to be expressed and understood with the term 'gender' effectively results in man's self-emancipation from Creation (nature) and from the Creator. Man wants to do everything by himself and to decide always and exclusively about anything that concerns him personally. But this is to live against truth, to live against the Spirit Creator.<BR/><BR/>The tropical rain forests deserve our protection, yes, but man does not deserve it less as a Creature of the Spirit himself, in whom is inscribed a message that does not mean a contradiction of human freedom but its condition.<BR/><BR/>The great theologians of Scholasticism described matrimony - which is the lifelong bond between a man and a woman - as a sacrament of Creation, that the Creator himself instituted, and that Christ, without changing the message of Creation, welcomed in the story of his alliance with men.<BR/><BR/>Part of the announcement that the Church should bring to men is a testimonial for the Spirit Creator present in all of nature, but specially in the nature of man, who was created in the image of God.<BR/><BR/>One must reread the encyclical Humanae vitae with this perspective: the intention of Pope Paul VI was to defend love against consumer sex, the future against the exclusive claim of the moment, and human nature against manipulation."Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13775753218753337766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-37738840634524689152008-12-23T22:39:00.000+00:002008-12-23T22:39:00.000+00:00XCall me naive, but the Pope didn't actually say a...XCall me naive, but the Pope didn't actually say any thing of the sort. The Pope actually spoke once again about the sanctity of marriage and the sinfulness of casual sex. No mention as far as I can see of homosexuality or transsexuality. It is the media that seems to have read between the lines and made up some quotations. I seem to recall them doing something similar with Rowan Williams a few months ago.<BR/><BR/>This isn't simply a matter of trying to place a church figure in a bad light. These days the press ignores the words of a leading church figure and simply prints what they want them to have said.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13775753218753337766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-31218116097778996442008-12-23T20:57:00.000+00:002008-12-23T20:57:00.000+00:00What an over-reaction on your part, Iain. "Pope sa...What an over-reaction on your part, Iain. "Pope says homosexuality is wrong" is a story in the same category as "bear has shit in woods", and you know it.The Grim Reaperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05543130733645367498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-46729414216800136262008-12-23T20:27:00.000+00:002008-12-23T20:27:00.000+00:00Andrew, I do not think society is any more 'fractu...Andrew, I do not think society is any more 'fractured' than it was 100, 500 or 1000 years ago. It's just that bad news is now instant and more accessible through MSM.<BR/><BR/>Are you saying humanists have no morals - or that they have a moral code but you are insisting they must have gotten it from religion?<BR/><BR/>I am an optimist and I haven't lost faith in human nature. I'm fed up with 'organised religion' exploiting the poor and the uneducated. I'm fed up with organised religion spreading hatred and fear. I'm fed up with the corruption and hypocrisy.<BR/><BR/>People create their own meaning and purpose in life. Perhaps the meaning of life is to live a life of meaning?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-90648445727118305632008-12-23T20:22:00.000+00:002008-12-23T20:22:00.000+00:00As a LibDem, I do condemn the Popes' comments and ...As a LibDem, I do condemn the Popes' comments and share your outrage Iain. I am not gay, but for a German especially with his background to come out with comments like this is frankly appalling and we should shout him down.<BR/><BR/>I think you are hinting the right analysis in that this is motivated by a desire to deflect attention from priestly behaviour around the world.<BR/><BR/>He is also I suspect motivated by calculation that he will extend Papal influence in Africa and South America where queer-bashing is widespread.<BR/><BR/>The Vatican is one of the most cynical and corrupt/corrupting institutions in world history and they are long practised at this type of debased manouverism.DespairingLiberalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02903904463236135611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-45054672887980336882008-12-23T20:16:00.000+00:002008-12-23T20:16:00.000+00:00"who defines what is and is not ethical?"We all do..."who defines what is and is not ethical?"<BR/><BR/>We all do. Only some of us own up to it.Jimmyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01542633492362670045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-74327926902396628612008-12-23T20:12:00.000+00:002008-12-23T20:12:00.000+00:00God-botherers, eh? Don'tcha just love 'em?...God-botherers, eh? Don'tcha just love 'em? <BR/>If it weren't for the pernicious & all pervasive influence of the various hocus-pocus brigades this would all be quite funny, but as it is it's just a further illustration of the general idiocy of these assorted reality-deniers.<BR/>D'ya think God knackered the Large Hadon Collider on purpose?@molesworth_1https://www.blogger.com/profile/12278870362360637173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-74172959843111443672008-12-23T18:35:00.000+00:002008-12-23T18:35:00.000+00:00Posters might want to read the full text of the Po...Posters might want to read the full text of the Pope's speech before commenting further<BR/><BR/>http://www.massinformation.org/2008/12/benedict-xvi-curia-address-in-english.htmlEnlightened Despothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06384983255525542165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-82989999213948329862008-12-23T18:16:00.000+00:002008-12-23T18:16:00.000+00:00Matthew - could I please point out that not once i...Matthew - could I please point out that not once in that excerpt did the Pope mention homosexuals.<BR/><BR/>If you read it that way, it's your problem. However, I read it as talking about the need for a reappreciation of the importance of marriage, and the importance of love between a man and a woman, as the basis of society. Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't that current mainstream Conservative thinking?<BR/><BR/>And yes, Iain, I do believe there is a will in newspapers and the BBC to always present anything the Pope says in the most negative light possible a) to get more traffic ("Pope says something about marriage" is hardly good news is it?) and b) because there is a heavy institutional media bias against both the Catholic and Anglican churches, to the extent that they try to present an often completely fictitious picture in a bid to fit in with their news agenda, not the facts.<BR/><BR/>The only time the Pope's comments even headed towards homosexuality was his blunt suggestion that transgender people were confused idiots who should sort themselves out (I paraphrase but you get the gist - I note Matthew has not quoted these sentences). Why is nobody here worrying about that, preferring instead to chase red herrings all over the oceans?The Half-Blood Welshmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05072936624444891100noreply@blogger.com