tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post7075253735953897255..comments2024-03-04T17:54:32.559+00:00Comments on Iain Dale's Diary: Coulson: Am I Being Machiavellian?Iain Dalehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03270146219458384372noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-12871532232340444672010-09-07T21:26:35.638+01:002010-09-07T21:26:35.638+01:00Yet another bad application of the term "Mach...Yet another bad application of the term "Machiavellian", with the added contrivance of making claims this is some superior scholarly analysis, above the usual misuse of his name.<br /><br />Personally, I'm certain Coulson will have known what was going on on his watch, but there is no new substantive information from credible sources over and above what was looked into the last time this was being investigated, under a Home Secretary of a different political stripe.<br /><br />However it's dressed up, Sagar's piece is no better and no worse than anything you may have said on the subject. Partisan tit-for-tat of no actual merit to the investigation. Just keeping the noise up, and trying to keep it interesting .Hughes.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15269769422448216129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-87317794409994996222010-09-07T11:40:38.154+01:002010-09-07T11:40:38.154+01:00"But where Paul is wrong is that I would neve..."But where Paul is wrong is that I would never, ever defend anyone - no matter how strong the tribal loyalty is - if I thought they were guilty of a criminal act."<br /><br />You're happy to defend Gary McKinnon. Whom himself is a convicted hacker.<br /><br />(although I conceded perhaps not against the crime, but the disproportionate sentence and fact that he'd be standing trial overseas....I also support him)RonLiddlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12781908939258281742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-44743251125681358382010-09-07T10:19:05.941+01:002010-09-07T10:19:05.941+01:00I'm quite sure that if you'd had your voic...I'm quite sure that if you'd had your voicemail hacked, you would be yelling for the police from the rooftops.<br /><br />Coulson got away with this because his chums in the Met ensured a plodding investigation.<br /><br />Thank goodness for the long-established police <--> tabloids "relationship" and for Andy Hayman's wonderful job offer at the Screws so soon after it was all sorted to everyone's satisfaction!<br /><br />I wonder what else was promised to Rupe at Dave's island visit?DespairingLiberalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02903904463236135611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-18953838716621562642010-09-07T10:18:02.327+01:002010-09-07T10:18:02.327+01:00Theresa May (recently seconded from FAB) whom in o...Theresa May (recently seconded from FAB) whom in opposition was the champion of moral standards within Westminster must have been mightily annoyed at having to answer that question. <br /><br />http://conservativehome.blogs.com/platform/2007/04/theresa_may_100.html<br /><br />I'm sure an equivalent list for the co-alition record is quietly heading into double figures, not bad given the limited time they've had.<br /><br />If Coulson is found to be lying, he lied whilst in employment of the Conservative party and then the government. <br /><br />I hope we don't have to wait for another set of memoirs to finish this story off. I'm memoired out.RonLiddlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12781908939258281742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-3907997109378484372010-09-07T09:43:14.370+01:002010-09-07T09:43:14.370+01:00"But where Paul is wrong is that I would neve..."But where Paul is wrong is that I would never, ever defend anyone - no matter how strong the tribal loyalty is - if I thought they were guilty of a criminal act."<br /><br />Really? Even crimes that shouldn't be crimes at all - such as the possession or use of recreational drugs, say? Or consensual prostitution? Or peaceful protest which the police decide to label "behaviour liable to cause a breach of the peace"? <br /><br />Criminal laws are made by legislatures, and legislatures are not always right. It is possible for an act to be morally right and yet constitute a crime, or, conversely, for an act to be morally wrong and yet be perfectly legal. <br /><br />And our criminal justice system is profoundly screwed-up. We have the highest prison population in Western Europe, grossly overcrowded prisons, and far too many people being given prison sentences for minor non-violent offences. (To his credit, Ken Clarke has been talking some sense about this lately.) Not to mention the erosion of our civil liberties and widespread abuse of power by the police. <br /><br />I realise this doesn't have anything to do with Andy Coulson, and I apologise for derailing the thread... but I just don't understand why so many people show such instinctive deference to the criminal law, as though Parliament were some sort of a moral authority. (FWIW, phone-hacking is both illegal and immoral, so I'm not actually talking about the present case here.)Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03885622025050170022noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-77452074820862382112010-09-07T08:02:45.752+01:002010-09-07T08:02:45.752+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801051251247458947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-34245985475711294272010-09-07T07:54:59.355+01:002010-09-07T07:54:59.355+01:00pete-s said...
3:04 Rt Hon --- Yes did not a Mr B...pete-s said... <br /><i>3:04 Rt Hon --- Yes did not a Mr Blair employ a Mr Campbell.</i><br /><br />Well done you... My point exactly - the colour of the government has changed but it's still the same old sleazy behaviour.<br /><br />Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose...Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801051251247458947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-18357861147481512792010-09-06T17:26:21.904+01:002010-09-06T17:26:21.904+01:00Using Paul Sagar's arguement, couldn't the...Using Paul Sagar's arguement, couldn't the entire previous cabinet be classed as equally Machiavellian for "supporting" Gordon Brown when they knew what a mess he was making.<br />The mock outrage is typical Labour, but they really know how to manipulate the media. <br /><br />Why isn't there a stock list of Labour horrors to highlight for Tory MPs whenever Labour attempt to get on their high horse over issues like this? There's plenty of material and Labour used the "it was the other lot when they were in" as a defence for the full 13 years.Richard Hollowayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01496289874547803218noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-51969311593459227392010-09-06T16:00:55.434+01:002010-09-06T16:00:55.434+01:003:04 Rt Hon --- Yes did not a Mr Blair employ a Mr...3:04 Rt Hon --- Yes did not a Mr Blair employ a Mr Campbell.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-72305369490789154882010-09-06T15:29:58.694+01:002010-09-06T15:29:58.694+01:0099% of the electorate will have never previously h...99% of the electorate will have never previously heard of Coulson and will not give a fig that when he was an editor of the NoW he may have known that reporters may have hacked into Jowell's or Prezza's phones; whatever heinous deed this may be in law.<br /><br />What they will be asking is why the Labour Party hasn't got more important things to worry about - especially as Prezza has never uttered a word worth listening in to and even if he had nobody would have been able to decypher what it was.Weygandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11359751090279735138noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-88008233697138860042010-09-06T15:29:22.395+01:002010-09-06T15:29:22.395+01:00Iain, the BBC are determined to keep this one goin...Iain, the BBC are determined to keep this one going. It's not their job to spearhead Labour attacks. Has the penny dropped yet with the Tories that BBC's left-wing bias needs to be sorted out, and should have been years ago?Roland Deschainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06224091866358939619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-72673484744555271272010-09-06T15:24:51.156+01:002010-09-06T15:24:51.156+01:00It is hardly a surprise to find a Labour Party sup...It is hardly a surprise to find a Labour Party supporter citing Machiavelli. The craving for power (so they could redistribute wealth into their own pockets) is pretty much all that New Labour amounted to in the end, and for “progressive” Leftists, the fact that they bankrupted the country while doing it is just a bonus.<br /><br />The Media pretend that the entirely manufactured moral outrage of various Labour Party apparatchiks (who in the last government had a track record of being a hate filled bunch of morally and intellectually challenged bigots) is sincere, while the rest of us pretend to be shocked that a tabloid journalist admitted obtaining some of his stories by listening to messages on private voice mail accounts, or (most surprising of all) an embittered ex-tabloid hack (sacked because of his unreliability) has sold (to a rival news organisation) a story that the editor (who as it happens has already resigned over the story) knew what the journalist in question was doing to get his stories.<br /><br />As a political scandal it competes with the William Hague story. It is almost as feeble as it is cynical.wildhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14437167510102273197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-71793241450844383872010-09-06T15:04:55.265+01:002010-09-06T15:04:55.265+01:00What's the big deal?
Sleazy politician employs...What's the big deal?<br />Sleazy politician employs sleazy PR man. Happens all the time.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801051251247458947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-42142332159885000232010-09-06T14:28:02.165+01:002010-09-06T14:28:02.165+01:00The odd thing is how all these labour people weren...The odd thing is how all these labour people weren't kicking up a fuss about their phone accounts being messed with at the time.<br /><br />Could it be that Murdoch was then still being wooed to support Labour?Mick Turatianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12533201193634948442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-15489831073673157002010-09-06T14:26:21.921+01:002010-09-06T14:26:21.921+01:00If Coulson had been behind a contrived scheme to t...If Coulson had been behind a contrived scheme to tap phones, then he should be condemned. However the story appears to be; journalists try to get a lead by listening to voice mails of politicians who have left their PIN on default.<br /><br />If you are that stupid..............Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-63995337403434215922010-09-06T13:41:53.426+01:002010-09-06T13:41:53.426+01:00Just Liebour trying to put up a smokescreen for th...Just Liebour trying to put up a smokescreen for their own folly....Nothing to see move along pleaseMirtha Tidvillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07940977481295375071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-43155019196032275132010-09-06T13:34:44.335+01:002010-09-06T13:34:44.335+01:00Machiavelliain. Please excuse the pun.Machiavelliain. Please excuse the pun.Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06358349301959327747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-67841882624660087122010-09-06T12:56:10.521+01:002010-09-06T12:56:10.521+01:00The New York Times claim they have evidence agains...The New York Times claim they have evidence against Coulson but they refuse to produce it for verification or investigation. How are we supposed to know that it exists?<br />The Guardian, The Independent, the BBC and numerous Labour politicians will believe any old claptrap without asking for evidence to support it. Luckily the general public is not so stupid. The journalists and politicians who believe every word of the unsubstantiated allegations about Coulson are the same ones who believed every word about weapons of mass description and 45 minujtes.Minnie the Minxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05346234348102510490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-566142367700344092010-09-06T12:25:21.291+01:002010-09-06T12:25:21.291+01:00What Sagar doesn't say is that the allegations...What Sagar doesn't say is that the allegations (which the BBC keeps referring to as "fresh evidence") are the unsubstantiated assertions of a sacked and disgruntled ex-employee, two years after the event.Windsor Tripehoundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16923036087016324862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1639006373964279222010-09-06T12:18:01.083+01:002010-09-06T12:18:01.083+01:00Isn't the real story "why does the New Yo...Isn't the real story "why does the New York Times care ?".<br /><br />My guess is that someone form the "<i><b>Forces of Hell</b></i>TM A Darling" has been back to their usual tricks. Now there is something worth investigating if it shows that Labour hasn't even started to route out the moral corruption that riddled it in office.Man in a Shedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00990902055642035293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-53538650885936762782010-09-06T12:07:33.621+01:002010-09-06T12:07:33.621+01:00The point is that no one tainted with being editor...The point is that no one tainted with being editor of such a vile low life hypocritical rag as the NoW should been anywhere near CCO. This is just fall out from a US anti Murdoch cat fight but it shows the foolishness of appointing Coulson. Had nobody noticed the damage that the skunk Campbell eventually did to his master?Glyn Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13756226316614600769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-67575841122735875792010-09-06T12:03:38.307+01:002010-09-06T12:03:38.307+01:00Well, in a sense you are. Andy Coulson is that he ...Well, in a sense you are. Andy Coulson is that he says he didn't know about any phone tapping, others say he did, and other comentators say it was not possible for him to be editor of the NOTW and not know how the stories were obtained. The only valid defence for Coulson is that neither side has yet produced any evidence, so Coulson is innocent until proven otherwise. <br /><br />Unfortunatey, that doesn't make for good political gossip.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13775753218753337766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-57068014143999589912010-09-06T11:46:42.212+01:002010-09-06T11:46:42.212+01:00Iain, thanks for the kind - probably kinder than I...Iain, thanks for the kind - probably kinder than I may deserve - comments, and for the considered reflection.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-81990399940955513622010-09-06T11:45:04.500+01:002010-09-06T11:45:04.500+01:00It's hard to know what to make of this one. We...It's hard to know what to make of this one. We musn't forget the highly questionable way in which The Guardian got hold of this story in the first place, for starters. It's safe to say that I don't like The Grauniad one bit. Then again, I don't like the News of the World, I don't like the Tories and I sure as hell don't like former newspaper editors. It's like trying to choose from the worst of a bad bunch.<br /><br />As for you Iain, of course you're being Machiavellian. It's what you could end up doing more and more in the next few months as criticism of the coalition starts to pile up.The Grim Reaperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15190441504002736960noreply@blogger.com