tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post6961661969069400004..comments2024-03-04T17:54:32.559+00:00Comments on Iain Dale's Diary: Local GP Wins Totnes Open PrimaryIain Dalehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03270146219458384372noreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-22270479024594159682009-08-05T11:29:12.214+01:002009-08-05T11:29:12.214+01:00This is an interesting, but irrelevant side-show (...This is an interesting, but irrelevant side-show (though it may well have selected a good candidate in this case). The real need is to change the voting system to one that gives voters real choice and give voters real power to determine their local representatives in every general election.<br /><br />Open primaries make no sense. Your political opponents will flood the ballot with votes for the candidate they believe they can most easily defeat in the real election.<br /><br />And we certainly don't want US-style primaries, where party affiliation is part of the published register of electors.James Gilmourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17374325929212547383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-49129385924176252212009-08-05T05:38:40.704+01:002009-08-05T05:38:40.704+01:00@John Harvey,
1) What is to stop opponents to wh...@John Harvey, <br /><br /><i>1) What is to stop opponents to whichever party is holding the primary, to deliberately vote for a poor candidate? </i><br />Nothing. But (a) the more people that vote, as in Totnes, it's highly unlikely that the trolling would have much effect, and (b) mutual deterrence; if someone does it to us, just wait and we'll do it back to you!<br /><br /><i>2) Where does this leave members and constituency parties. Removing their right to select a candidate leaves them with almost nothing to do anymore </i><br />In Totnes the constituency assoc. had the say right down to the final three candidates that went on the ballot.<br /><br /><i>3) Will such primaries discourage people from joining political parties because after 2) above - what is the point? </i><br />I'd say that by giving ordinary people a better insight into politics there's just as much chance that ordinary people may decide to join.<br /><br /><i>4) Who gets to select the short list - there is still room for a stitch up I suppose. </i><br />In Totnes it was the constituency party. Well there might be room for a stitch up, but what benefit would that give the local party? If any local party agrees to a primary then in return Central Office should agree to give the local assoc. a completely free reign over the selection of the final three. <br /><br /><i>5) And why oh why was FPTP used - the winning candidate had only 48% of the vote - why not use STV or at least AV (as most selections do these days....) </i><br />Because it's simple.<br /><br /><i>6) And what about the cost and the legalities of this vote. </i><br />Cost - yes the cost is an issue. How about having the three parties agree to hold a primary at the same time, share postage and cost of the count? Also, maybe instead of free postage, provide convenient ballot drop sites at post offices, supermarkets, etc (in Oregon we even had a drop box in a MacDonalds for the 2008 presidential election)!<br /><br /><br /><i>Is it binding on the constituency party?</i><br />The primary result would have to be binding. If the local party reversed the decision, the seat would be lost.<br /><br /><i>What happens now if the winning candidate is suddenly found to be unsuitable - after the journalists have gone digging...? What then? </i><br />Well that'll just be tough luck! Look at Senator Ted Stevens, Alaska, 2008. Was reselected at the Republican primary, and was then arrested and convicted of corruption. Guess what, he lost!Dual Citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05688872768973943522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-27684663075712412442009-08-04T23:22:48.809+01:002009-08-04T23:22:48.809+01:00It's not often I find harmonious agreement wit...It's not often I find harmonious agreement with you and your commentators. Quite frankly, Totnes is gob-smacking. As <b>Unsworth @ 1:13 PM</b> said, "Forty grand well spent then".<br /><br />So: for the next stage.<br /><br />All that support for political parties could usefully go (on a <i>per-capita</i> of reply basis) to finance this initiative. For each and every re-selection. If we had that, and <b>proper</b> PR (and fixed-term four-year Parliaments?), we would be on the way to a true democracy.<br /><br />Just think: locally-answerable candidates. Gawd! One can feel the Whips shaking from here! And yet, we -- all of us -- are no longer just villagers. We have wider perspectives (even when "advised" by the <i>Daily Mail</i>), so we choose our representatives from a wider perspective.<br /><br />My University is that of Edmund Burke, and I hear him saying what <b>must</b> be the consequence here, the admixture of local interest and national polity:<br /><br /><i>Parliament is not a congress of ambassadors from different and hostile interests; which interests each must maintain, as an agent and advocate, against other agents and advocates; but parliament is a deliberative assembly of one nation, with one interest, that of the whole; where, not local purposes, not local prejudices, ought to guide, but the general good, resulting from the general reason of the whole. You choose a member indeed; but when you have chosen him, he is not member of Bristol, but he is a member of parliament. If the local constituent should have an interest, or should form an hasty opinion, evidently opposite to the real good of the rest of the community, the member for that place ought to be as far, as any other, from any endeavour to give it effect.</i><br /><br />And I reckon a GP might be less biddable than a career politico.<br /><br />That's not ideological or partisan, either.<br /><br />A second thought suggests that Nye Bevan might be on side here, too: sorry, can't be arsed to repeat my favourite quotation from <i>In Place of Fear</i>, about the misappropriation of power. Too many vermin might agree therewith. But I've blogged it a couple of times.Malcolm Redfellowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11907427518823910875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-76510800170235214972009-08-04T22:02:59.693+01:002009-08-04T22:02:59.693+01:00I don't think the £40K figure would be repeate...I don't think the £40K figure would be repeated. You can see why, with this being a test primary, the Tories would want to pour a fair amount of cash in if only to get people interested. Imagine if the primary had selected the best candidate but the turnout had been 10%. Every news report would be condemning the primaries idea as dead in the water.<br /><br />I'd be interested to know how much of the £40K was promoting the individual candidates and how much was promoting the fact that a primary was taking place.<br /><br />As (and if) primaries became more common and more accepted, maybe voters would notice them more as a matter of course and wouldn't have to have them promoted so much.Steve Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15992098012803570361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-50186600310126914442009-08-04T21:30:20.049+01:002009-08-04T21:30:20.049+01:00Is this an anti politician vote?
Only in the stri...<i>Is this an anti politician vote?</i><br /><br />Only in the strictest possible sense. Local people didn't want to be represented by political careerists. They wanted someone from outside the Party <a href="http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Hugbox" rel="nofollow">Hugbox</a>. In place of whichever candidate was thrown up by the media-political ouroboros, they opted for someone who was known and respected in the area.<br /><br />This is a tremendously positive move and probably one of the few things that could revitalise local politics. Up 'til now, if we're all quite honest and don't stick our heads in the sand, advancement within the party has, more often than not, been dependent on kissing the right asses in the local party and at central office and of making all the right on-message noises.<br /><br />Through open primaries, you take power out of the apparatchiks (whose asses are being kissed) and put it into the hands of regular voters. You also introduce a little bit of chaos to party discipline and, with any luck, strip the party leadership of its ability to depend on ranks of anonymous parliamentary automata who can ram through any piece of illiberal badly thought-out legislation (and, yes, I am thinking on the last twelve years...). <br /><br />Open primaries: they're just plain awesome.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-89912220212323633612009-08-04T21:06:00.611+01:002009-08-04T21:06:00.611+01:00On the cost issue, William Hague is quoted on the ...On the cost issue, William Hague is quoted on the BBc News website as saying it cost £38,000andrewhahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18033907326386770212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-91372515126946668712009-08-04T21:03:02.329+01:002009-08-04T21:03:02.329+01:00I'd answer John Harvey like this:
1) What'...I'd answer John Harvey like this:<br /><br />1) What's to stop other parties voting for a poor candidate? Well the constituency party not putting forward any poor candidates to the primary obviously.<br /><br />2) Where does it leave the constituency party now that it hs nothing to do? Well, given the habit of many constituency parties of producing the most toe curling Torby Boy social misfits as PPCs, maybe it;s a good thing that the final decision is taken out of their hands. <br /><br />3) Why would anyone join a political party if primaries were introduced? To select the final candidates to go forward to the primary. To campaign on their behalf. To knock on doors.<br /><br />4) Isn't there still room for a stitch-up? Depends what you mean by a stitch-up. What are they going to do? Pick their ideal awful candidate and pick another two who are even worse? They'll just look like fools. The point of primaries isn't just who makes the decision but that that decision is made more public. They could indeed still "fix" the choice but it would be obvious to everyone in the constituency that they'd done so.<br /><br />5) Why was FPTP used? If the Tories used STV or AV for primaries, that'd weaken any argument they might have for using FPTP in the General Election.<br /><br />6) What if the media uncover something murky in the past if a candidate chosen by primary? If there's a primary, any murky secrets are more likely to come out during the primary "campaign". Whereas, if the candidate continues to be chosen in smoke filled rooms, the media don't really get to get to work on him until the choice has already been made.Steve Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15992098012803570361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-88398196079911091372009-08-04T20:57:50.373+01:002009-08-04T20:57:50.373+01:00Can't understand why this is good idea (but th...Can't understand why this is good idea (but then I can't understand the point of the American primaries either).<br /><br />I suppose it's in tune with the TV talent show format - that's about it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-40107921347606718832009-08-04T20:47:12.642+01:002009-08-04T20:47:12.642+01:00Re my previous post I not only think that IF Mande...Re my previous post I not only think that IF Mandelbum is parachuted into somewhere that they should run an open primary -- but they should try to persuade Matthew Parris to stand.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-73403051348579187722009-08-04T18:33:05.096+01:002009-08-04T18:33:05.096+01:00Pickles-17 more MP's stepping down.17 more ope...Pickles-17 more MP's stepping down.17 more open primaries-well dun our eric.Or was it a gimmick?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-90795939197960703132009-08-04T17:36:03.838+01:002009-08-04T17:36:03.838+01:00This is going to be interesting...
but the parties...This is going to be interesting...<br /><i>but the parties need to remember their members or else find them members of another party</i>.Man in a Shedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00990902055642035293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-18178966665070913732009-08-04T17:31:30.080+01:002009-08-04T17:31:30.080+01:00How difficult would it be to have closed primaries...How difficult would it be to have closed primaries in the UK? <br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_primary<br /><br /> I don't know enough about the British system, i.e. do you declare a party affiliation when registering to vote? What does being, as someone said, a "paid-up" member of a party mean?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-83146000240353065122009-08-04T17:08:21.504+01:002009-08-04T17:08:21.504+01:00If New Labour move to primaries no doubt they will...If New Labour move to primaries no doubt they will incorporate a significant postal vote component.talwinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06217305295002230599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-61587238257405588152009-08-04T17:06:27.096+01:002009-08-04T17:06:27.096+01:00Yes Iain. But will you now condemn the left wing s...Yes Iain. But will you now condemn the left wing sneering of Newsnight, in particular Michael Crick who was ridiculing this "Tory Stunt"Martinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-27919207795600567452009-08-04T16:55:23.095+01:002009-08-04T16:55:23.095+01:00Thank you to Working Class Tory for the link.I hav...Thank you to Working Class Tory for the link.I have just emailed them this comment:- But are you a Conservative madam? Being a medical doctor you presumably have a fair degree of common sense and intellectual ability. But Dr Howard Sproat signed up to the socialist agenda and presumably supports the malevolent incompetence of Gordon Brown and Vince Cable supposedly once had a proper job (Chief Economist at Shell) but signed up to the loony Europhile beards and sandals of the Lib Dems so being intelligent does not prevent one being a fool. <br /><br />Totnes floats about on a waft of magic mushrooms and chuckle shoes plus the occasional darker force amongst your shopkeepers (as I read in the press recently) (Info for this post: A weird blackmail case) but can you follow a proper Conservative agenda – which includes stopping the vast waste of the EU, controlling the huge waste in the NHS (I had a pre-op this morning at the RD&E and was given a lunatic Surgery Questionnaire form – an utter squandering of resources) and getting control of our borders and welfare spending especially upon those who object to the Western lifestyle they so willingly seek to suckle from? <br /><br />If your progeny are at ‘state schools’ in Torbay one presumes that means the Grammar schools. Do you support their expansion? I do - and one less than a tenth of what two doctors earn I put both mine through fee paying schools! A conservative should support tax relief for such expenditure. Do you support the Charity Commission being an arm of Labour party policy, allowing Lottery money to replace proper government expenditure and seeking to remove charitable status from education?Glyn Hnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-50370331995882795552009-08-04T16:06:48.940+01:002009-08-04T16:06:48.940+01:00What on earth is the point of taking away from pai...What on earth is the point of taking away from paid-up members the privilege of choosing someone to represent them and giving it to the general public, including many who do not have the best interests of the Conservative Party in mind.<br /><br />And it costs more than the usual system for no better effect.gordon-bennetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00249699675694944419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-89517415704225882582009-08-04T15:57:48.865+01:002009-08-04T15:57:48.865+01:00Hi, Newmania. Has it been THAT long? Dale used t...Hi, Newmania. Has it been THAT long? Dale used to look so young at the start! I wonder how he's coping with diabetes and middle age.Tapestryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17267094484651413428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-23656060042026510282009-08-04T15:31:52.667+01:002009-08-04T15:31:52.667+01:00@Jon Harvey
"1) What is to stop opponents to...@Jon Harvey<br /><br />"1) What is to stop opponents to whichever party is holding the primary, to deliberately vote for a poor candidate?"<br /><br />There isn't, but in general people are more sensible than that. That candidate if elected at a general or by election will go onto become there MP as well. Voting for the worst one seems prety stupid. Plus it is up to the party to select candidates they would feel happy to have represent them, whoever wins the primary. <br /><br />"2) Where does this leave members and constituency parties. Removing their right to select a candidate leaves them with almost nothing to do anymore"<br /><br />Don't know the exact details but I assume that the local association choose the 3 candidates in question to be elected and then ratified Wollaston after she won the primary. That sounds like more to do than simply choosing 1. <br /><br />"3) Will such primaries discourage people from joining political parties because after 2) above - what is the point?"<br /><br />There's no point in campaigning locally for the selected candidate at a general election? No point in a local association for conservative minded people to come together to share views etc? I really think there is more to associations than simply picking a candidate to represent the area. And as the primary showed this will re-engage people back into politics. I wouldn't be surprised to see the amount of people joining the local conservative association grow. <br /><br />"4) Who gets to select the short list - there is still room for a stitch up I suppose"<br /><br />Local associations I believe. If not, it should be. And as per point 1 they should only be selecting people they are happy to se elected as a Tory at a GE.<br /><br />"5) And why oh why was FPTP used - the winning candidate had only 48% of the vote - why not use STV or at least AV (as most selections do these days....)"<br /><br />Makes no sense in a single election. Although I will agree that there are arguments for STV at a general election. <br /><br />"6) And what about the cost and the legalities of this vote. Is it binding on the constituency party? What happens now if the winning candidate is suddenly found to be unsuitable - after the journalists have gone digging...? What then?"<br /><br />What price democracy? Or are we going to do the usual British thing of moaning about our politicians for not being good enough and then when something radical like this comes along to redress the balance and try and get some decent people back into parliament moan about how much it is costing? As for your last point what about if a journalist goes digging now and finds an MP isn't suitable? I fail to see the difference. <br /><br />"This whole affair leaves far more questions than answers, I feel." <br /><br />This affair has restored my faith in British democracy. Lets hope there's lets more of it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-10469054705476190732009-08-04T15:28:16.066+01:002009-08-04T15:28:16.066+01:00As history will judge your blog by the quality of ...As history will judge your blog by the quality of its commenters, and of course we are such a clever and inquisitive lot, you now owe us all an exact description of precisely which part of Eric Pickles was tickled pink. Who did the tickling? Photographs would help.<br /><br />Armed with this information, we will be able to comment in a way which will do you proud.Russellnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-15033673375847381422009-08-04T15:26:37.905+01:002009-08-04T15:26:37.905+01:00I know the area well, and my mother-in-law is a lo...I know the area well, and my mother-in-law is a local Tory (who voted for Dr W). I don't think being a GP was the only factor at play. Not being a "professional politician" helped (both the other candidates are council leaders) but there were other factors. Dr W was the only candidate that sounded euro-sceptic out of the three leaflets, for example, in this very eurosceptic part of the world. To those that jest about anti-drug campaigns and Totnes, remember that the "alternative" town of Totnes is just part of this big rural constituency. There are far more rural conservative types than there are Dartington-hippy types, and the Tories seldom attract hippy votes anyway. And to those that talk of the marginalisation of the local party, didn't the Association get to pick the shortlist from a longlist of Central Office-approved candidates? So in fact Dr Woolaston has managed to impress the central party, the local party and the local voters to get the nomination. That sounds like a pretty fair say for everyone to me.Neil Anoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-5293958025782243342009-08-04T15:21:14.455+01:002009-08-04T15:21:14.455+01:00The BBC don't mention the 25% turnout figure.The BBC don't mention the 25% turnout figure.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-53576946273132554012009-08-04T15:19:27.754+01:002009-08-04T15:19:27.754+01:00I am in favour of extending democracy and involvin...I am in favour of extending democracy and involving the electorate in decisions such as adopting candidates as in this Open Primary . I would question whether £ 40,000 is well spent by a party that ended last year £ 7.5 million in debt .<br /> As to the effect on party membership , the sad fact is that Devon Conservatives are suffering more than most from the falling membership that is affecting all the major political parties . The membership figures for all the Devon constituencies except the 2 Plymouth ones have fallen from 10,824 in 2002 to 7,737 in 2005 and 5,691 at the end of 2008 .Mark Seniorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06482009878893889107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-56054067988964313712009-08-04T15:06:09.335+01:002009-08-04T15:06:09.335+01:00So If the public has any say then parliament will ...So If the public has any say then parliament will be full of:<br /><br />Soldiers, Doctors, TV presenters, actors and sportsmen.<br /><br />Bankers, politicians, social workers and lawyers need not apply. <br /><br />Not such a bad thing really.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-80409022869366150682009-08-04T15:01:36.212+01:002009-08-04T15:01:36.212+01:00The poor dear apparently expects to change governm...The poor dear apparently expects to change government policy on drugs. Best of luck with that.<br /><br />Going to bang the drum again, but with STV you don't NEED open primaries - the same process is parcelled up within the election, thus saving the £40,000 times 3 parties per seat.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-84824298807280344752009-08-04T14:49:47.323+01:002009-08-04T14:49:47.323+01:00As for the marginalisation of the consituency asso...As for the marginalisation of the consituency association.<br /><br />It really depends on how they organise it.<br /><br />If the association gets to vote the longlist down to the shortlist, they will maintain a fair bit of power.<br /><br />In addition to this there is the power of endorsment. I immagine that the association members would be valuable allies in a primary contest where door to door representation will help.Boohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10343313936224731968noreply@blogger.com