tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post6517808877882864029..comments2024-03-04T17:54:32.559+00:00Comments on Iain Dale's Diary: Localism is Great - As Far As It GoesIain Dalehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03270146219458384372noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-37401072316881885362009-02-22T14:53:00.000+00:002009-02-22T14:53:00.000+00:00Solution to taxation is easy - don't have a nation...Solution to taxation is easy - don't have a national solution but give local authorities a general power to tax and let them decide for themselves how to raise the moneyRichard Gadsdenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10545595590359552775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-43420807947891892482009-02-18T14:26:00.000+00:002009-02-18T14:26:00.000+00:00Anyone who is in favour of more elected mayors sho...Anyone who is in favour of more elected mayors should take a closer look at what has gone on here in Newham. Aside from the fact that the elected Labour Mayor (Sir Robin Wales) is an egomaniac who loves self-promotion, he has structured the council in such a way as by-pass any scrutiny of his decisions.<BR/><BR/>His ill conceived plan to "police" Newham by using the parks constabulary as police officers on the streets is fairly well documented (for those regular readers of Private Eye), but there are many, many other examples of Wales' poor decisions. I could point out that he recently purchased a gleaming new glass fronted building near the City Airport as the council's new offices. The council has stated that the purchase price of the building was £78 Million, yet I found out via a Freedom of Information enquiry that the true cost £111.5 Million.<BR/><BR/>He's also announced a freeze on Council Tax; convenient inasmuch as there are to be local elections next May.<BR/><BR/>Talking of local elections, there is a by-election taking place in the Newham ward of Royal Dock. The Conservatives have a brilliant candidate in Neil Pearce. Any support would be greatly appreciated.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-51182734488378850292009-02-17T22:33:00.000+00:002009-02-17T22:33:00.000+00:00I'd like the pre-1974 system brought back. It work...I'd like the pre-1974 system brought back. It worked. But it was changed to make it easier for Whitehall to administer. Not to deliver a better service.Martin Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04148241391183658112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-73431341084583158272009-02-17T21:35:00.000+00:002009-02-17T21:35:00.000+00:00Hold on, hold on. While I'm sure that large bi...Hold on, hold on. While I'm sure that large bits of what follows is implicit in the verbiage above, however ...<BR/><BR/>It was the Thatcher Government that destroyed a long standing system of local taxation by centralising commercial rating, and by the "nationalising" of funding via (first) Poll Tax, then by Council Tax. The result was that local authorities, which had been 40%+ dependent on monies raised from their own communities, went to 80% dependent on government subvention.<BR/><BR/>That increased by more than twice the local ratchet effect. It also gave local authorities the let-out: guilt was hosed onto Whitehall: "We'd love you to have a new social centre/school/public bog/flower bed, but the government won't let us." Central Government (both Tory and Labour) has been seeking ways out of this ever since.<BR/><BR/>Beyond that, do we really want excessive local control?<BR/><BR/>Do we want BNP/Trot representatives on Police Committees?<BR/>Do we want the kind of schooling districts (intelligent design, anyone?) that bedevil educational advance in the States?<BR/>Would anyone, left, right or centre, be happy with Islamicist/SWP/George Galloway clones running Stepney Green?<BR/><BR/>Because, quite frankly, with >30% voter participation and the kind of arm -twisting that involves, that is precisely what you will get. There's no democratic, no Tory advantage there in any middle term.<BR/><BR/>The Lib Dims haven't thought this one through, beyond the presumption that local communities can impose a reverse precept upon the national Exchequer.Malcolm Redfellowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11907427518823910875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-58376499947979173952009-02-17T20:00:00.000+00:002009-02-17T20:00:00.000+00:00Newmania - you and the IFS may have one view. Vote...Newmania - you and the IFS may have one view. Voters may or may not have another. At least this way we have the argument, people vote on it, the result is different in different places, and we see the results.<BR/><BR/>Strapworld - Unitary authorities aren't doing away with town councils, in fact most of the new ones are giving more power and status to town councils. They're doing away with district councils, but these have only existed since 1974, so it's hardly sweeping away a thousand years of tradition!Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07371197947234412265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-29696014529888068882009-02-17T19:42:00.000+00:002009-02-17T19:42:00.000+00:00Sir Iain said "...the cost would be enormous. Reme...Sir Iain said <I>"...the cost would be enormous. Remember why the poll tax failed? One reason was that the bills were just too huge and people regarded them as unfair."</I><BR/><BR/>I've never been entirely convinced by this line of thought. Whenever the issue of tax used to come up, my dad always used to say "I would have actually been better off under the poll tax system" and I'm not from an especially rich family. I'm always slightly baffled as to why it failed, despite having looked into it a few times. It seems much fairer than the current system.The Grim Reaperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05543130733645367498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-66774246735659298972009-02-17T19:40:00.000+00:002009-02-17T19:40:00.000+00:00All taxation needs a limit. Nationally and locally...All taxation needs a limit. Nationally and locally. Govt should be forced to live within a fixed tax rate framework (perhaps for each parliament). Then if any party wants to raise overall taxation levels they would have to say so in their manifesto. And which taxes they wished to raise. Within a parliament they could adjust various individual taxes, but the only growth in total revenue could come from growth in economic activity.Sobershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11407417389022146963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-91026889606935463332009-02-17T17:49:00.000+00:002009-02-17T17:49:00.000+00:00So we'll be getting local bureaucrats instead of n...So we'll be getting local bureaucrats instead of national bureaucrats. Somehow that does not really thrill me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-38559442776205120772009-02-17T16:58:00.000+00:002009-02-17T16:58:00.000+00:00Who are Cameron's "local communities"?The Tories' ...Who are Cameron's "local communities"?<BR/><BR/>The Tories' vehicles toured Ealing Southall proclaiming in various South Asian languages that Muslim, Hindu and Sikh festivals were to be made public holidays by the Tories.<BR/><BR/>Then that party's "Quality of Life Commission" (don't laugh, it's real) published a report advocating that "local communities" be given the power to designate three public holidays in their respective localities.<BR/><BR/>In other words, the Tories are going to go around Asian areas at the next Election making this same promise all over again, adjusted according to how Muslim, Hindu or Sikh the particular constituency, ward or addressee happens to be. <BR/><BR/>After this, what else are these unspecified "local communities" going to decide? Who are they, exactly? I think we all know that they are the great and the good of the local mosque, mandir or gurdwara.<BR/><BR/>Getting to decide this, and then a whole lot more, is to be their price for getting out the vote, sometimes consisting of nothing more than reminding their mates to fill in postal ballot papers the right way on behalf of their entire households. <BR/><BR/>These situations will easily perpetuate themselves, since people will move - not just from around the country, but from around the world - to live in Cameron's little Caliphates, Hindutvas and Khalistans.<BR/><BR/>Among other things, of course. When Avigdor Lieberman has denaturalised the Haredim by forcing them to swear allegiance to the secular State of Israel, then they can just set up as a "local community" in, say, Golders Green, or Stamford Hill, or Salford, or Gateshead.<BR/><BR/>Watch out, the Labour MPs for Gateshead. And watch out, the Labour MP for Salford, Hazel Blears, Secretary of State for Communities.David Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06839882674758833524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-62332460132492120572009-02-17T16:47:00.000+00:002009-02-17T16:47:00.000+00:00I do rather agree that this was a crass thing to s...I do rather agree that this was a crass thing to say.Iain Dalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03270146219458384372noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-57452697536184522382009-02-17T16:41:00.000+00:002009-02-17T16:41:00.000+00:00Caroline Spelman told the BBC:"Back in 1979 the wh...Caroline Spelman told the BBC:<BR/>"Back in 1979 the whole landscape of local government was very different... That is not the situation we face today. The landscape has changed. Conservatives actually control three times as many councils as our opponents put together - and I think this is the time to actually trust in local democracy and return power to the local level."<BR/><BR/>So, now they control most of the councils, they want to devolve power. So this is all about political expediency, and nothing to do with principle.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13284026098188983055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-25989062075353891862009-02-17T14:51:00.000+00:002009-02-17T14:51:00.000+00:003 points - how devolution should happen, RDAs and ...3 points - how devolution should happen, RDAs and the issue of local taxes.<BR/><BR/>As Obo says, the real problem with such proposals is that they are mostly deckchair dances. The true shift should not be from one group of Central bureaucrats to another set of local amateur bureaucrats, but to devolve to the individual. Overall, who is best able to judge for each person? The individual, of course - it is impossible for the LA to know what is best for me. Being a hetro white male in my 40's, they would rather I did not exist excep then they could not rob me via taxes.<BR/><BR/>However, one point stands out - reducing the RDAs. Without the development funding or a say over planning, what would the RDAs do then? Surely the point is to abolish RDAs, but oh, Dave can't do that, can he, for that would be abolishing a tier of EU government and Dave is not going to stand up to the EU...or is he?<BR/><BR/>The problem with the LibDem solution (being their solution is normally enough for anyone to know, but...) is that it will end up being a local income tax. That would entrench "tyranny of the masses" in some authorities as earners are squeezed hard to pay for all those who do not just as in the past Loony Left councils squeezed rate payers and businesses while riding in on votes of those who never paid a bean. Local income tax could work if only those paying it had a vote, but I do not see the LDs swallowing that one.Roger Thornhillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03591327286533118901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-6563036977870438002009-02-17T14:35:00.000+00:002009-02-17T14:35:00.000+00:00Giving power back to Local Authorities is a good i...Giving power back to Local Authorities is a good idea. BUT I notice that Cameron has not said anything against Unitary Authorities which have removed some district/ town`councils from the map.<BR/><BR/>IF the Tories really believed in Local democracy he would bring back Town and District Councils and consider the closing of County/Unitary Councils and disperse their duties back to local councils!<BR/><BR/>He could also bring back local Magistrates Courts so to bring Local justice for local people. The resentment, especially in rural area's, for having to travel miles to the magistrates court instead of your local town, to see magistrates with no local knowledge dispense ''justice'' is certainly against the present 'tory thinking'<BR/><BR/>Let local issues be dealt with locally!strapworldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18228784526399929300noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-5850859787722498052009-02-17T14:27:00.000+00:002009-02-17T14:27:00.000+00:00"All political parties have filed it in the 'Too D..."All political parties have filed it in the 'Too Difficult' tray."<BR/><BR/>Iain finds out the LibDems haven't.<BR/><BR/>"it's an easy thing to say when you lead a party which will never have to find a way of implementing such an aspiration"<BR/><BR/>That's rather mealy-mouthed Iain!<BR/><BR/>Giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you won't now change your opinions now you've found out that they agree with a fairly fundemental bit of LibDem thought (heaven forbid!), do you now repudiate the countless Tory attacks over the years on any attempt to shift the tax-take from central to local government?LibCynchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13025602133865137272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-79233869813373315092009-02-17T14:17:00.000+00:002009-02-17T14:17:00.000+00:00Local government is a grotesque collection of bloa...Local government is a grotesque collection of bloated, incompetent, wasteful empires, built by jumped-up Town Clerks, who measure their own worth by the majesty of their no-expense-spared headquarters, the size, rather than efficiency, of their spending and the sheer numbers of those who do their bidding.<BR/><BR/>Scrap the lot, and start from scratch.<BR/><BR/>Local chief executives, elected on a specific manifesto, free to appoint their own Board of Directors from within or otherwise. Absolute power to hire and fire, and everything else.<BR/><BR/>Locally raised revenue, spent only locally and to hell with this "fairness" of national distribution, we've seen what gerrymandering that produces. If an area isn't raising sufficient revenue even for basic needs, so much greater the incentive to do something about it.<BR/><BR/>Sack the jobsworths, the non-jobbers and the wasters of space and our taxes. Deliver only the services the people want and vote for. And free, somehow, local government from the insidious grasp of the EU, because without that, everything else is a waste of time.an ex-apprenticehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04967821802512064291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-48016910752477767832009-02-17T14:14:00.000+00:002009-02-17T14:14:00.000+00:00Imagine a local election where, say, a Labour Grou...<I>Imagine a local election where, say, a Labour Group proposed higher taxes on big properties and higher local income taxes for high earners, but more libraries, free swimming, more meals on wheels, and so forth,</I><BR/><BR/>Not possible it is a well know and accepted fact that tax cannot be significantly more redistributive nor can it be much increased . Ordinary people will have to pay for any more state funding . This is the conclusion of the Institute for Fiscal Studies. <BR/><BR/><I>a Lib Dem group proposed abolishing the council tax but introducing a local income tax</I><BR/><BR/>This means more tax .<BR/><BR/><I>a Conservative group proposed reducing all local taxes by 25% but closing a number of libraries and pre-school clubs,</I><BR/><BR/>Or reducing bureaucracy or allowing people to set up their own which they would do far better than the council<BR/><BR/><BR/><I>and a Green group proposed cutting the council tax by 20% and doubling the number of recycling points, paid for by higher parking charges and a toll to enter the major town.</I><BR/><BR/>Thereby destroying business , impinging on civil Liberties and operating a system that if transferred to the Nation would be protectionist not to say racist .<BR/><BR/>Yes I can hear the arguments already and I am quite quite confident that the more you can see tax the less people will like it .If this is Clegg`s idea then great . In reality he wants an incomprehensible melange which he can call high taxes in the North and low taxes in the South .<BR/><BR/><BR/>What would happen to the basket case inner-city constituencies that rely on soaking everywhere else to pay for their nutty left wing Coucil`s to play Lady Bountiful then ?Newmaniahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11922161971821380803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-12078736525273400862009-02-17T13:39:00.000+00:002009-02-17T13:39:00.000+00:00But no political party will ever say that, because...<I>But no political party will ever say that, because the cost would be enormous. Remember why the poll tax failed? One reason was that <B>some</B> bills were just too huge and people regarded them as unfair.</I><BR/><BR/>I've replaced a word in that paragraph. The poll tax was as 'fair' as any other means of taxing people. Some would have paid more, some less. The Government was unable to articulate this to combat a popular campaign against it.<BR/><BR/>A more local tax regime would introduce tax competition between councils. In principle this is a good thing but I believe there is so much State interference that it will always distort the market - in education, health and Policing for example, the target culture leads to shortcuts and gaming the system at the expense of 'consumers'. Police target convenient crimes or don't bother investigating, hospitals shorten operation waiting lists by lengthening waiting lists to see a consultant, schools make exams easier.<BR/><BR/>The ingrained lack of responsibility and accountability has given us a system beyond repair at a national level and beyond improvement by devolving things to a local level.Garethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11182144080955551878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-32548038484824047142009-02-17T13:22:00.000+00:002009-02-17T13:22:00.000+00:00"How difficult is it to remove a council officer? ..."How difficult is it to remove a council officer? Almost impossible these days."<BR/><BR/>Cheltenham are showing the way. They have not only sacked a Chief Exec, they are suing her for damages.<BR/><BR/>http://therantingkingpenguin.blogspot.com/2008/12/heres-turn-up-for-books-hope-it-sets.html<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://therantingkingpenguin.blogspot.com/" REL="nofollow">The Penguin</A>.Hacked Offhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08016667577546745576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-78364467069256937752009-02-17T13:20:00.000+00:002009-02-17T13:20:00.000+00:00There is a very easy way of changing the proportio...There is a very easy way of changing the proportion raised at the local level and all parties are moving towards it.<BR/>Take Education expenditure away from local government and fund schools directly from Whitehall.Anonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09685260584328031612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-48133832300227140142009-02-17T12:41:00.000+00:002009-02-17T12:41:00.000+00:00Iain,Lets clear something up, if you can.The tory ...Iain,<BR/><BR/>Lets clear something up, if you can.<BR/><BR/>The tory council tax ‘freeze’ is no such thing – it has set the parameters so high that most councils of all stripes will never see the light of the funding for the freeze. So lets confirm that from the start.<BR/><BR/>Also, and I am no lib dem, but to dismiss them on the basis that ‘they will never be in government’ is petty and pretty lazy reasoning. Are we to dismiss every idea based on whether they can win government? Surely we should throw the Scottish Conservatives in the bin as they ‘will never be in power at Holyrood’. In Wales, where I am from, without the Lib Dems, it is highly unlikely the Tories would gain any power in the Senedd…Sweet and Tender Hooliganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02547500394164348186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-78261698688084324992009-02-17T12:29:00.000+00:002009-02-17T12:29:00.000+00:00The important point is that grants from Whitehall ...The important point is that grants from Whitehall do not belong to Whitehall: they are taxpayers' money, all of whom live somewhere that can be defined as local. Genuine localism would involve abolishing national taxes (especially income tax) and having communities grant Whitehall ministries democratically accountable sums of money.James Dowdenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11058389162481491681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-84514967444512198842009-02-17T12:20:00.000+00:002009-02-17T12:20:00.000+00:00No community exists in grand isolation; each is a ...No community exists in grand isolation; each is a part of a greater whole.<BR/><BR/>So saying localisation means each community must raise money in grand isolation is a logical fallacy.<BR/><BR/>There will always be a mixture of central and local fundraising. <BR/><BR/>The point is deciding how that money is spent.<BR/><BR/>Localisation ultimately sees Britain as a community of communities, as opposed to the atomised society of neo-liberalism.<BR/><BR/>The point of communities is that people help each other, which means that rich areas will help poorer areas.<BR/><BR/>If this is what Dave is arguing on CiF today, and it seems to be, it is a radical and welcome departure.<BR/><BR/>I was wondering when you would address Philip Blond's idea of Red Tories.pxcentrichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11395222949204334549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-20706506203716552742009-02-17T11:56:00.000+00:002009-02-17T11:56:00.000+00:00It is interesting that the parties are quick to im...It is interesting that the parties are quick to impose standards on local government that they will not impose on themselves at Westminster. For example, the Conservatives back local referenda, but I am sure would shy away from Swiss-style citizen-initiated recall mechanisms applying to central government; and they (sensibly, in my view) want the Audit Commission to report on the transparency of local government finance settlements to avoid "covert party political influence" but I wonder what their view would be on the National Audit Office exercising exactly the same role over other ministerial resource allocation decisions (eg gerrymandered Lottery grants)? <BR/><BR/>Sauce for the goose...Enlightened Despothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06384983255525542165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-89612686423537497482009-02-17T11:37:00.000+00:002009-02-17T11:37:00.000+00:00I dont see why reform of finance should be expensi...I dont see why reform of finance should be expensive, just technically difficult. Replacing VAT with a local sales tax is one suggestion, though I am not sure whether that would be legal under EU rules. (If so, yet another reason for leaving the EU, but thats a different issue.)<BR/><BR/>What would be difficult would be the transition phase. This would not only be difficult for technical reasons, but also because of the increase in responsibilities and competence needed by local councillors, who are often mediocre: a consequence of local councillors having so few powers is that councils dont always attract talented people.<BR/><BR/>However, localism in local government wouldnt also bring more accountability, it would lead to innovation and genuine competition, Furthermore, experience in local government could act a proving ground for aspirant national politicians. In other countries such as France its very common for national politicians to have a track record in local government. We are very badly served by people who are cultivated entirely in the Westminster hot house and start to try a run the country in their 40s having never run anything (one Tony Blair springs to mind).Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13997546418164172397noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-86906541993272594142009-02-17T11:36:00.000+00:002009-02-17T11:36:00.000+00:00In an area like South Yorkshire, large numbers of ...In an area like South Yorkshire, large numbers of people are clients of the state and will quite happily vote for other people to pay higher taxes...a pattern that's repeated on a national level, too.Tomfigliohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11268398575142555828noreply@blogger.com