tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post6249580878884246702..comments2024-03-04T17:54:32.559+00:00Comments on Iain Dale's Diary: Prisoners Votes Is WrongIain Dalehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03270146219458384372noreply@blogger.comBlogger61125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-42385526791028657732010-11-03T20:49:17.096+00:002010-11-03T20:49:17.096+00:00For serving prisoners, I am not persuaded that the...For serving prisoners, I am not persuaded that the right to vote is a human right, and believe that the temporary removal of the right should be part of the penalty paid for crime.<br /><br />We do not allow Argentinians, Malaysians or Americans to vote in this country unless they have a joint-citizenship or other legal right to vote, but we don't deny they are humans and have other rights such as the right to life and so on. I don't have a right to vote in Japan, but I would expect to see the Japanese authorities uphold my fundamental rights should I ever travel there.<br /><br />Why don't we just tell Brussels to f**k off? What will they threaten us with that'll hurt more than not paying £45M a day (and rising) to be part of their poxy project? Norway and Switzerland do very well not being in the EU. Frankly, Brussels cannot afford the UK, France or Germany to start acting up. We should try throwing our weight around a little more.Thorpehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07937013013431307255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-89350761712356030422010-11-03T14:00:59.528+00:002010-11-03T14:00:59.528+00:00It is not actually true that all prisoners lose th...It is not actually true that all prisoners lose the right to vote - those who are there for non payment of fines and contempt of court do not (and probably shouldn't either). It is also not the case the the ECHR judgement stops the UK in restricting the rights of prisoners to vote - it just stops the use of a blanket ban without any though as to its application. Plenty of other European countries have such bans - and in the case of Belgium the ban applies in some cases to prisoners after they have left Britain. <br /><br />I can see at least one very good reason for applying the ban to those prisoners convicted of murder/manslaughter who are out on licence.tory boys never grow uphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11172736984147732661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-76750435042235896012010-11-03T13:15:41.372+00:002010-11-03T13:15:41.372+00:00I think Mr Hirst has rather succesfully trolled th...I think Mr Hirst has rather succesfully trolled the blogosphere.James Cooperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13171539946105619291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-35264772901910228732010-11-03T12:01:07.482+00:002010-11-03T12:01:07.482+00:00Iain - forgive me for using the same comment I mad...Iain - forgive me for using the same comment I made on Tom Harris MP's blog. <br /><br />***<br /><br />Unfortunately, in this instance, The European Convention militates against the sentiment of many who are appalled that prisoners get the vote.<br /><br />The harsh legal fact of the matter is that Britain signed up to the European Convention (indeed, was instrumental in drafting it) and, as signatories we agreed to abide by judgments of the ECHR.<br /><br />The majority decision in United Kingdom v Hirst No 2 was clear - Britain must give prisoners the vote - but not all prisoners. The Frodl ruling which came after suggested that all prisoners must be given the vote.<br /><br />I did a very detailed legal analysis of this issue with ex Government lawyer Carl Gardner.<br /><br />If you have time and the inclination - you may find the podcast of some interest?<br />http://charonqc.wordpress.com/2010/10/27/lawcast-...<br /><br />I gave John Hirst an opportunity to put his case on my blog. I was then abused by him and was, ironically, called a snob and mocked by him. This matters not to me. Hirst suffers from Aspergers and does not relate to people, I understand, in a conventional way.<br /><br />I suspect a lot of the hatred for Hirst and abuse is driven by the nature of Hirst's crime - killing a defenceless woman with an axe. Had Hirst been a Bank robber his crusade may not have engendered such hatred.<br /><br />His behaviour in the 'celebratory' video demeans and undermines the validity of the principle and the cause of prisoners.<br /><br />This latter point is, of course, irrelevant - as, indeed is public opinion. The ECHR made that clear in the judgment.<br /><br />The dissenting judges in Hirst No 2 made powerful points - but they were the dissenters. the majority ruling is the one the UK has to comply with.<br /><br />That is the problem with law and rule of law. If it is to have any meaning, we have to comply with it - even though it may be unpalatable.<br /><br />We can, of course, change the law - in this instance by seeking amendments to the Convention.<br /><br />I think there are more important civil liberties issues which need to be addressed in the UK. For my part - I don't have any objection to prisoners getting the vote - but I don't hold strong evangelical views on this and, I suspect, if pushed, I would come down in favour of limiting prohibition on voting to criminals convicted of anti-state crimes and the most serious crimes.<br /><br />I do have some sympathy for allowing prisoners to vote on rehabilitative grounds if they are likely to be returned to society.<br /><br />There is no shame in the UK government complying with the law on this issue - even though it angers many.<br /><br />Mr Hirst's bragging about holding the prime minister to ransom and his mockery of lawyers and Charlie Falconer is not worth getting hot under the collar over. I don't imagine for one moment, that Charlie Falconer is concerned by the personal abuse meted out by Hirst.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-52598096141018967472010-11-03T09:11:06.974+00:002010-11-03T09:11:06.974+00:00Doubting Richard, could you please explai how this...Doubting Richard, could you please explai how this blogpost constitutes a "terrible" attitude please?<br /><br />http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2009/09/should-prisoners-be-allowed-to-blog.html<br /><br />I suspect it is a case again of you reacting to what you think I probably wrote rather than what I actually wrote.Iain Dalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03270146219458384372noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-39759956090649685112010-11-03T08:22:19.671+00:002010-11-03T08:22:19.671+00:00Never mind, the whole campaigning in prisons comme...Never mind, the whole campaigning in prisons comment, I've lived in this house for 16 years and have never once seen a candidate to canvas me on whether I would or why I should vote for them.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01324107690375535369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-65262622763099343312010-11-03T07:12:00.763+00:002010-11-03T07:12:00.763+00:00I suppose when the next general election appears o...I suppose when the next general election appears on the horizon with the possibility of being a parliamentary candidate is on the cards Mr. Dale we might see a return to sensible blogging.<br />Or will you have become too much of a media whore by then?<br />Where you should have been directing your ire is at the previous administration who had ignored this issue for too long.<br />Better to have pointed out that this was another case of Cameron having to clean up the mess left by NuLabor.Barnacle Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17257546424880537005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-24173510049722172632010-11-03T01:49:12.107+00:002010-11-03T01:49:12.107+00:00Iain
I agree with you in principle. Unfortunately...Iain<br /><br />I agree with you in principle. Unfortunately I agree with prisoners' votes in practice, and your terrible attitude to Ben's Blog is one of the reasons.<br /><br />If even at your level of political influence with little accountability you cannot accept Ben's Blog as a level of representation, and understand the righteous condemnation he has given of the prison system then I am afraid that prisoners votes is the only solution.Doubting Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16507892426345836143noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-7620935285244378952010-11-03T00:53:17.496+00:002010-11-03T00:53:17.496+00:00Can we take away their TVs to pay for it?Can we take away their TVs to pay for it?Mostly Ordinaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11940615088493840939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-90728094265674460382010-11-03T00:22:53.390+00:002010-11-03T00:22:53.390+00:00A basic principle ought to be that if we allow the...A basic principle ought to be that if we allow the state the power to deprive someone of the vote, it's too dangerous. The dangers certainly outweigh the short term satisfaction some seem to get from finding yet another way of punishing prisoners.<br /><br />You seem to contradict yourself when you say that they deserve to lose some fundamental rights. If they are rights which can be removed, they can't be fundamental rights, can they? <br /><br />The question of where prisoners would be registered is a good one but surely not insuperable. But the worst thing you say, Iain, is almost a throwaway remark - imagine how hard it'd be to canvass in prisons. Yes, it wouldn't be so easy to trot out a dog whistle, hang em and flog em manifesto, would it?Steve Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15992098012803570361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-87463849967833576352010-11-02T22:10:50.001+00:002010-11-02T22:10:50.001+00:00What Cameron should have done was this said to the...What Cameron should have done was this said to the EU "i am a conservative PM, my party was the party of law and order in the UK AND THIS WILL DISGUST 99.999% OF THE UK PUBLIC.I double dare you to call my bluff on this and ill tell the British public i am pulling out of the EU lock stock and barrel.We will pay a fine and you will give it back to me on the sly,or work some other way to get this to vanish or i will pull out of the eu and you will get £0".The tory public would have jumped for joy he would have been a hero,but he sold out,gave EU 2.9% no referendum ,gave the sas to the French ,MURDERS GETTING VOTES ,whats next<br /><br />sorry but Dave was all mouth before he became PM ,now he is Dave the cave in HE IS FAST BECOMING A TOTAL JOKE<br /><br />ANDY EDINBURGHANDY EDINBURGHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12366358053895766151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-11717531206197640322010-11-02T21:40:44.155+00:002010-11-02T21:40:44.155+00:00So Ian Huntley, notwithstanding the loss of votes ...So Ian Huntley, notwithstanding the loss of votes of the two girls you killed, how will you be voting? And how might they have voted, if they had still been alive, but for you killing them<br /><br />As always, the EU/lawyer mafia is only about the rights of muderers, not the rights of us not to be murdered.<br /><br />I'll gladly chip in for the Piano-wire Fund if that's what it will take to rid us of these accursed self-serving "lawyers" (Yes I'm looking at you Tony Blair)AndrewSouthLondonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16938615481406315985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-76303389391212119802010-11-02T20:50:25.393+00:002010-11-02T20:50:25.393+00:00Who gave Gollum the vote?Who gave Gollum the vote?David Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08240242801763405583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-75342368812689147432010-11-02T20:23:09.981+00:002010-11-02T20:23:09.981+00:00It really is a moot point - how many prisoners vot...It really is a moot point - how many prisoners voted before they went inside - not many I'd wager. Not exactly model citizens. Still, it sticks in the craw and I am appalled by the laissez faire attitude of the people commenting.Lady Finchleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03695379463537122656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-85556610402928634402010-11-02T19:55:10.886+00:002010-11-02T19:55:10.886+00:00@Libertarian
Please take the opportunity to acquai...@Libertarian<br />Please take the opportunity to acquaint yourdself with the British Nationality Act 1981. We are citizens. <br />Put simply,"At Her Majesty's Pleasure" refers to indefinite sentences in prison or secure hospital (when an insanity plea is accepted) for serious offences where there is a high chance of reoffending and for juveniles instead of a life sentence. The offender is reviewed periodicaly and only released when assessed as safe so to do,Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06358349301959327747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-50070609579916303632010-11-02T19:54:06.552+00:002010-11-02T19:54:06.552+00:00Working its way through the NZ parliament is a bil...Working its way through the NZ parliament is a bill to ban all prisoners from voting.<br />Current law is anyone who is serving 3 years or more cannot vote.<br />But the real issue is, who rules Britain?<br />Our parliament or the European Court?FAIRFACTS MEDIAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09278035907912171422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-19701068345453192282010-11-02T19:40:39.381+00:002010-11-02T19:40:39.381+00:00Hmmm... so Jeffery Archer and Jonathon Aitken woul...Hmmm... so Jeffery Archer and Jonathon Aitken wouldn't have been allowed to vote...<br /><br />Stand for MP? oh yes... but vote... oooooh, no...Carl Evehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03930750600999601721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-47777882661728516932010-11-02T19:09:45.617+00:002010-11-02T19:09:45.617+00:00If we returned to the situation whereby we could s...If we returned to the situation whereby we could safely assume that almost everyone convicted deserved to be, and where there was far less crime anyway due to proper policing, then no one would be suggesting this. We could also have proper sentencing, and a proper regime for the far fewer people who were in prison.<br /><br />That is the problem, in this instance, with the Lib Dems, the party that wants to give Ian Huntley the vote. They are quite good on civil liberties, but fail to see that that stand in incomprehensible and meaningless unless it is part of a package otherwise comprised of real policing, real sentences and real prison discipline. That last, at least, excludes the right to vote.<br /><br />We also urgently need to legislate for the disapplication in the United Kingdom of any ruling of the European Court of Human Rights, or of the European Court of Justice, or of the "Supreme Court" if it strikes down or otherwise compromises the Statute Law, or under the Human Rights Act under the same circumstance, unless ratified by a resolution of the House of Commons. Ed Miliband, over to you.David Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06839882674758833524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-30029283255433011392010-11-02T18:53:17.425+00:002010-11-02T18:53:17.425+00:00Paddy Briggs
In the country in which I live ( Eng...Paddy Briggs<br /><br />In the country in which I live ( England) we don't have citizens we have subjects. It's a constitutional monarchy.<br /><br />Prisoners are subjects and they are banged up at Her Majesty's pleasure.Libertarianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15219132362086878801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-72108434791575467672010-11-02T18:50:13.885+00:002010-11-02T18:50:13.885+00:00Hey, over here, across the pond, a whole lotta us ...Hey, over here, across the pond, a whole lotta us think that The Prisoner is a fine show and votin' for it is GREAT!<br /><br />Oh, wait a sec.....that ain't what you're talkin' about.<br /><br />Oh well, moi gotta run now and NOT go out and participate in the Theocratic Oligarchy’s Punch & Judy Show (a.k.a. Elections) today.<br /><br />I bet this comment doesn't get approved. <br /><br />Stay on groovin' safari,<br />Torhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03037704048671379868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-9377697488794863492010-11-02T18:11:54.354+00:002010-11-02T18:11:54.354+00:00Give those prisoners who pay for their accommodati...Give those prisoners who pay for their accommodation costs the vote but don't count them.Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06358349301959327747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-90271186305929455242010-11-02T18:03:01.936+00:002010-11-02T18:03:01.936+00:00Just as a matter of interest does anyone know whic...Just as a matter of interest does anyone know which lobby Stephen Timms graced during the vote on the Human rights BillAnoneumousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09825132566496729272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-39876673935032607092010-11-02T17:37:22.320+00:002010-11-02T17:37:22.320+00:00I tend to look on prison as something which is the...I tend to look on prison as something which is there to restore someone to being capable of participating as a responsible citizen.<br /><br />I think the punishment is locking them up and depriving them of their liberty. I think that voting, which is something that all responsible citizens should do should be encouraged in prison.<br /><br />Being in prison deprives you of your liberty so you can pay back your dues to society. It doesn't deprive you of your humanity.<br /><br />Maybe the reason that we have such a high level of re-offending when people come out of prison is that we fail to rehabilitate them on so many levels. <br /><br />Giving them the vote isn't going to cure that, but it's only part of a package of measures which urgently needs to be done to make us all safer.<br /><br />And as for the bloke in the video, I expect that people on those sorts of sentences will be excluded. <br /><br />The issue has been that we have a blanket ban on prisoners voting. What the Government should have done yonks ago is to allow all prisoners on sentences of, say, less than 5 years, the right to vote and this judgement would not have happened.<br /><br />For what it's worth, I probably go with the idea that you just give the vote to everybody. It's easier that way - and you can link it to where they last lived so you don't have the Wormwood Scrubs vote, or whatever swinging a particular seat.<br /><br />Surely you'd agree that the old lady in jail cos she can't pay her Council Tax shouldn't miss her chance to vote? Really?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04988201531739344840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-43140141976164077422010-11-02T17:32:23.127+00:002010-11-02T17:32:23.127+00:00What the European Court of Human Rights declared u...What the European Court of Human Rights declared unlawful was the blanket ban on convicted prisoners voting.<br /><br />What could well happen is the law is amended to say that all prisoners serving a term less than 4 or 5 years will be allowed to vote, and those above that will not.<br /><br />I gather that's a system used elsewhere in the world, and gets round the 'blanket ban' ruling.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-89063398191765171162010-11-02T17:32:08.462+00:002010-11-02T17:32:08.462+00:00Yes. We clearly have lost control of our legal sys...Yes. We clearly have lost control of our legal system. Will the predominantly Conservative coalition government do anything about it? So far as can be ascertained, absolutely not. Meanwhile we are also beginning to lose control of our ever-diminishing defence forces in order to pay for an increase in the aid budget.<br /><br />Vote blue, get yellow, in at least two senses.Salmondnethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04135160187810480222noreply@blogger.com