tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post5387258369158401747..comments2024-03-04T17:54:32.559+00:00Comments on Iain Dale's Diary: Know Your Place, Says PollyIain Dalehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03270146219458384372noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-36628624173740815612008-08-23T19:43:00.000+01:002008-08-23T19:43:00.000+01:00It's called giving people hope. No hope, no point ...It's called giving people hope. No hope, no point in living. <BR/><BR/>Toynbee may be right in some ways, the education system is now so skewed towards the private sector, most State educated kids aren't given the tools to 'make it'. And it's the likes of Toynbee who have taken away the ladder for those State educated kids, i.e. grammar schools.<BR/><BR/>But by saying it, you destroy the hope. And that only ends in trouble.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-12674971606055368542008-08-23T16:08:00.000+01:002008-08-23T16:08:00.000+01:00PaoloGood point about the corruption of the Americ...Paolo<BR/><BR/>Good point about the corruption of the American Dream being in urban areas. Unfortunately it is seeping through and it takes place just as much in the Wall Street as it did in the ghetto. In the States (where I am from) it is more about greed and bling and here (where I have lived for 25 years) it is more about all must win prizes but certain American things (like me!)import successfully and others such as bling and celebrity culture don't. In the UK we sometimes seem to take the worst of America and combine it with the worst of our own.<BR/><BR/>I think Merton would turn in his grave if he saw what his'American Dream' became.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-72056741505462840852008-08-23T11:18:00.000+01:002008-08-23T11:18:00.000+01:00I wonder how well it is doing now.It was demolishe...<I>I wonder how well it is doing now.</I><BR/><BR/>It was demolished a couple of years ago. So, not too well.<BR/><BR/>If it was possible to bring back grammar schools while leaving the comprehensives as they are (ie ensuring they didn't slip back to the 'dumping ground' mentality of the secondary moderns), that would be great.<BR/><BR/>I don't know if that's possible though.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-3114028038375574892008-08-23T09:14:00.000+01:002008-08-23T09:14:00.000+01:00Your comprehensive benefited from the residual gra...Your comprehensive benefited from the residual grammar school effect. I wonder how well it is doing now. <BR/><BR/>Bring back the grammar schools. Leave the rest of the kids in the comprehensives but put a lot more money and effort into changing the ethos of those schools. <BR/><BR/>The grammar schools won't need much extra help - they can look after themselves. Who ever heard of a 'failing' grammar school?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-89569375772524022382008-08-22T23:29:00.000+01:002008-08-22T23:29:00.000+01:00I became one of those things too (scientist) becau...I became one of those things too (scientist) because education was then about getting as far as you could, based on your abilities. There was none of this business of keeping everyone back so the slower kids didn't feel bad. If they had done that in PE, no cross country run would ever have been completed, the rugby and football teams would never have won a thing, sports day would have been a dead loss, and all because I was no use at any of those things but would have had to be 'included'.<BR/><BR/>The school I went to was grammar for the first two years, then became comprehensive, but all the teachers stayed so there wasn't too much difference by the time I left. Political correctness hadn't yet reared its scaly and distinctly pointed head.<BR/><BR/>None of us came from wealthy backgrounds. None of us had money and contacts from birth. We were taught that if you wanted something, work for it. Nobody ever said 'don't be silly, that's just for the rich'. Most of those kids now have decent jobs and homes. One became a professioanl goalkeeper for a league team. That's one of those eleven-year-old dreams that actually did come true. There weren't many.<BR/><BR/>Now, it's 'unhealthy' for children to dream those dreams. They are told they can't become what they dream, when they should be told 'well, if you really want that, here's what you'd have to do'.<BR/><BR/>Really, it doesn't matter what eleven-year-olds dream of because once they hit puberty, all thoughts turn to the opposite sex and those fantasies get forgotten.<BR/><BR/>All the same, telling kids they have no chance and have to accept what their parents have is just wrong.<BR/><BR/>I had the chance to get out of a council estate existence and I took it. Now I'd argue until I'm blue in the face to give every other kid out there at least the chance to do the same. <BR/><BR/>Most won't make it, some won't want to. Some will. Let them try.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-57293228486067355212008-08-22T23:00:00.000+01:002008-08-22T23:00:00.000+01:00- I and my friends wanted to be scientists, pilots...- I and my friends wanted to be scientists, pilots, doctors, teachers. Fame didn't come into it.<BR/><BR/>Leg-iron said ... "And how would you have felt to be told, at that age, that you were wasting your time thinking about it because you couldn't possibly ever become any of those things?"<BR/><BR/>Actually, we all became one or other of those things. Education is the key. We were at a grammar school and it was constantly drummed into us that we could achieve any of those career goals, the exception being those jobs where parental wealth or the 'old boy network' (probably more prevalent in those days) were major factors.<BR/><BR/>We felt sorry for the 75% who were at secondary modern schools and had much less opportunity to break out of their family economic and social situation. Very few of the secondary modern pupils that I knew achieved very much in career terms.<BR/><BR/>In my grammar school cohort, although only about 10% went to university (this is was the late 50s/early 60s remember) almost all eventually went into professional/managerial jobs. One is a multi-millionare and another is a peer.<BR/><BR/>Almost all the secondary modern contingent ended up in much the same position as their parents. I doubt if they got much encouragement from their teachers but I know that some of them worked very hard in their jobs without much reward.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-29310851897355203482008-08-22T21:45:00.000+01:002008-08-22T21:45:00.000+01:001908. 100 years ago. Radios stars? Astronauts? Roc...<I>1908. 100 years ago. Radios stars? Astronauts? Rock stars? I don't think so.</I><BR/><BR/>Sigh. Okay, let's go back to 1644 when eleven-year-olds wanted to be the generals of the cavaliers or roundheads. Specific enough?<BR/><BR/><I>When I was 11 - 50 years ago - I and my friends wanted to be scientists, pilots, doctors, teachers. Fame didn't come into it.</I><BR/><BR/>And how would you have felt to be told, at that age, that you were wasting your time thinking about it because you couldn't possibly ever become any of those things? Maybe you are now in one of those careers, maybe not. I have no way of knowing. <BR/><BR/>If not, do you consider yourself utterly damaged because you didn't become what you wanted to be when you were eleven? Or would you have felt more damaged if, having been told you couldn't achieve those things, you didn't even try?<BR/><BR/><BR/>Mark - The point here isn't so much whether most people will end up in the same sort of jobs as their parents. Most will, as you say.<BR/><BR/>The point is that they are being told to expect that. That they shouldn't try to get out of the rut. That they must accept their lot in life and not aspire to higher things.<BR/><BR/>In which case, none of them will ever get out of there. <BR/><BR/>So the next Prime Minister must therefore come from the upper classes because those 'of lower station' have been told not to be so silly and get back into line for the factory jobs.<BR/><BR/>I know that not everyone can achieve their dreams. I know that few people within any particular generation will get out of the family rut.<BR/><BR/>What I'm saying is that they should at least be allowed to try.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-53776175545486122822008-08-22T21:36:00.000+01:002008-08-22T21:36:00.000+01:00It is foolish to believe that the poor stay poor a...It is foolish to believe that the poor stay poor and the rich stay rich. <BR/><BR/>Many years ago, a left-wing historian (Lawrence Stone) set out to prove the rigidity of the English class system from Tudor times onwards.<BR/><BR/>Unfortunately for him, what he discovered was a very considerable amount of movement up and down within all classes - including scions of the nobility.<BR/><BR/>I come from a Central European refugee background - my widowed greatgrandmother came to London, with her 5 young children, in 1890. She spoke no English, and she had practically no money. All of her grandchildren made it into the middle classes, and her greatgrandchildren have done well in the academic, business and professional fields.<BR/><BR/>The story is typical of many similar families - if you had nothing, you didn't sit around on your backside moaning, you got up and worked, and made sure your children studied, and you did your best to set them a good example.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-52119144733445308172008-08-22T21:07:00.000+01:002008-08-22T21:07:00.000+01:00Leg-iron, the point is that, as confirmed by numer...Leg-iron, the point is that, as confirmed by numerous surveys, it is a fact of life that the 'vast majority' of people end up in much the same position as their parents socially and financially.<BR/><BR/>Although you can point to exceptions, children of rich parents will generally be wealthy in later life, without too much effort, because things are handed to them on a plate. Children of poor parents are more likely to be relatively poor, even if they do work hard all their lives.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-30438596229704625172008-08-22T20:56:00.000+01:002008-08-22T20:56:00.000+01:00leg-iron said... "If you went back 20, 50, 100 yea...leg-iron said... <BR/>"If you went back 20, 50, 100 years, what would the average 11-year-old be aspiring to be? ...They wanted to be film stars, radio stars, astronauts, footballers, rock stars, and now they want to be TV stars."<BR/><BR/>1908. 100 years ago. Radios stars? Astronauts? Rock stars? I don't think so.<BR/><BR/>When I was 11 - 50 years ago - I and my friends wanted to be scientists, pilots, doctors, teachers. Fame didn't come into it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-67977087330450233672008-08-22T20:25:00.000+01:002008-08-22T20:25:00.000+01:00A significant and worrying proportion would tell y...<I>A significant and worrying proportion would tell you that they want to be 'famous'. If Polly (or anyone else) points out that that is unhealthy, they are, er, right.</I><BR/><BR/>Worrying? Unhealthy? Come on. If you went back 20, 50, 100 years, what would the average 11-year-old be aspiring to be? A factory worker? A plumber? A road sweeper?<BR/><BR/>They wanted to be film stars, radio stars, astronauts, footballers, rock stars, and now they want to be TV stars.<BR/><BR/>When you're eleven it's all so simple. You just want to be one of your current heroes. When they grow up (they haven't even hit puberty yet!) most of them won't even remember what they wanted to be. A few of them do actually become those people, you know. Should we tell them not to do that?<BR/><BR/>It is not in any way unhealthy for 11-year olds to think, act and speak like 11-year-olds. There really is nothing to worry about in the imaginings of children. It's what they do.<BR/><BR/>Let them dream. They'll hit reality soon enough. At the moment they're happy - should we really socially engineer all that away and make them into grey drones now?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-56259307711200130402008-08-22T18:41:00.000+01:002008-08-22T18:41:00.000+01:00Ask a sample 11 year-olds what they'd really like ...Ask a sample 11 year-olds what they'd really like to be in 5/10 years time.<BR/><BR/>A significant and worrying proportion would tell you that they want to be 'famous'. If Polly (or anyone else) points out that that is unhealthy, they are, er, right.<BR/><BR/>If young people learnt that fame comes second, after being outstanding at something, or being very successful somewhere, that would be very valuable.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-52457045150513998532008-08-22T17:29:00.000+01:002008-08-22T17:29:00.000+01:00Ah, yes, that wonderfully undefined 'vast majority...Ah, yes, that wonderfully undefined 'vast majority'.<BR/><BR/>Most of those who went to my comprehensive (it was grammar for my first two years) have ended up doing pretty well. They don't have sprawling estates and Rolls-Royces, but they have decent jobs and their own homes.<BR/><BR/>Teachers at that school pushed us to work harder, to get as far as each of us could, and it paid off. If they had said 'You're all factory fodder and none of you will get anywhere because you're not rich', then the vast majority of us might well now be languishing on the dole. We are not.<BR/><BR/>Sure, there were some who ducked school, ended up with no qualifications and live their lives on the dole. But they were certainly not the vast majority.<BR/><BR/>The majority will do what they're told. That's always been the case. If you tell them to sit down, shut up and don't try, that's what they'll do.<BR/><BR/>That's what this 'vast majoity' are doing now. Exactly what they've been told to do.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-8089909482962042522008-08-22T17:13:00.000+01:002008-08-22T17:13:00.000+01:00leg-iron said... "Norfolk Blogger - it's not so.We...leg-iron said... <BR/>"Norfolk Blogger - it's not so.<BR/><BR/>Well, it's not always so."<BR/><BR/>We know it's not ALWAYS so. Just the vast majority of cases.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-76865744135036922752008-08-22T16:27:00.000+01:002008-08-22T16:27:00.000+01:00Norfolk Blogger - it's not so.Well, it's not alway...Norfolk Blogger - it's not so.<BR/><BR/>Well, it's not always so. You can get stuck in a dead end job with no prospects. It's up to you whether to stay there or take a risk and move. If you take the risk you might end up better off - or worse off. That's the risk.<BR/><BR/>Sometimes those born with wealth and contacts just mess it all up and end up penniless. Sometimes those born penniless make it rich.<BR/><BR/>Polly Crackers says that if you're born rich, you're made for life. If you're born poor, tug that forelock, shut up and know your place. Nobody from a council estate could possibly get a PhD. Nobody from a council estate could or should attempt to run their own business or buy their own home. If you're poor, stay there and keep quiet. She's more Victorian than the Victorians.<BR/><BR/>I, for one, refuse to shut down my business, give up my PhD and go back to the council estate I came from.<BR/><BR/>It can be done, but if you tell kids it can't, then they won't try. They'll aspire to nothing more than gang membership because they've been told that's all they're worth.<BR/><BR/>Determination and sheer bloody-mindedness trumps money and contacts, in my experience.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-17606301162320804872008-08-22T15:41:00.000+01:002008-08-22T15:41:00.000+01:00I had a think about this. If we point at a histori...I had a think about this. If we point at a historical figure and encourage kids to think "that could be me", we're making a moral judgement. We're condoning that figure.<BR/><BR/>Now in some cases you might say they were good people we should indeed try and emulate. But, I don't think history class should be condoning or condemming anyone. However obviously they seem good or evil to us. It should just present the facts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-15984812201910007772008-08-22T14:47:00.000+01:002008-08-22T14:47:00.000+01:00She is essentailly right though isn't she.You can ...She is essentailly right though isn't she.<BR/><BR/>You can work your socks off for most of your life and remain poor but if you are born with money and contacts you can sit around on your arse most of your life and have everything you want handed to you on a plate. <BR/><BR/>Tell me it's not so ?Nich Starlinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04237390959601973501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-65048927416999626122008-08-22T12:25:00.000+01:002008-08-22T12:25:00.000+01:00Pollyanna's terrified of competition, Iain. And it...Pollyanna's terrified of competition, Iain. And it's not hard to see why, given how poorly researched and badly written most of her articles are.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-22735392038692926512008-08-22T12:21:00.000+01:002008-08-22T12:21:00.000+01:00Toynbee wants people to know their place, then the...Toynbee wants people to know their place, then they can be talked down to, infanilised, taxed, handed a little of the tax back - and boy they'd better be grateful - while the Socialist elite wafts about.<BR/><BR/>Her mindset repeatedly exposes the logical block on outcomes. Yep, MOST people will remain ordinary, but anyone MIGHT become extraordinary if they grasp opportunity, prepare for chance encounters over a Pound Note and with a ton of luck.Roger Thornhillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01153744692290896812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-44341974317505143182008-08-22T12:20:00.000+01:002008-08-22T12:20:00.000+01:00What was Polly doing taking part in a History deba...What was Polly doing taking part in a History debate anyway? Didn't she drop out of her Oxford History degree after only one year?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-21317566339500888862008-08-22T12:10:00.000+01:002008-08-22T12:10:00.000+01:00I agree with Paolo - the American Dream is to have...I agree with Paolo - the American Dream is to have a fulfilling life, not to achieve fame and fortune. <BR/><BR/>I also agree with Judith, aspiration helps you be the best you can be and no one can do more. Human fulfillment is more than money or fame. But Socalists are greedy, envious, spiteful people and don't understand that - "he's got more money, bigger house, more cars than me, I want that or it's not fair. That is all they know."<BR/><BR/>Summoning their god of equality, anyone who they are envious of (or cannot control) and uses intelligence or skill is elitist, and that is almost as bad as being racist - to a socalist like Toynbee. Can't have people thinking for themselves or striving to better themselves - 'they won't be grateful for our handouts and believe in the socialist religion anymore'!! Isn't this the grotesque Gramsci experiement they are subjecting us all to? <BR/><BR/>One of my favourite quotes is the end of Middlemarch:- "The growing good of the world is partly dependent on unhistoric acts; and that things are not so ill with you and me as they might have been, is half owing to the number who lived faithfully a hidden life, and rest in unvisited tombs." <BR/><BR/>As I said yesterday, in the teaching of history we should make sure we include local and social history as well. But the many great British (and indeed everywhere else) figures from all backgounds - especially humble, show you just what can be done. <BR/><BR/>But you are not a failure if you only live a 'faithful life', where you have done you best to use your talents. Isn't there a Christian parable along those lines?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-12245197065139919782008-08-22T12:05:00.000+01:002008-08-22T12:05:00.000+01:00Classic piece of taking meaning out of context, th...Classic piece of taking meaning out of context, this. The debate was talking about 'the great' in history in terms of power politics, not sprinting. No-one is suggesting Winston Churchill would challenge Usain Bolt's 100m record, but being a descendent of the Duke of Malborough and a student of Harrow probably kick started his political career. Polly is absolutely correct to say that we shouldn't mask socio-economic realities with unrealistic fantasies. Incidentally, this isn't incompatible with encouraging kids' aspirations, Toynbee's just saying don't lose sight of the role that social injustices continue to play in politics. If you want proof of those, just look at the backgrounds of the Tory front bench.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-60963706597965748212008-08-22T11:39:00.000+01:002008-08-22T11:39:00.000+01:00Good for you that you put Toynbee in her place. Th...Good for you that you put Toynbee in her place. That sort of mentality means people born into disadvantage just stay that way. If Barack Obama were born in a Labour run borough, he'd have no chance of being where he is now. The likes of Toynbee made such mean comments about Adam Afriyie when he got elected. That's when the scales fell from my eyes about the Labour Party. They don't want people from communities they see as disadvantaged to achieve anything. <BR/>Boris for PM!! (sorry slightly off-post in this sentence, but Boris has been excellent in China recently).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-71591439876796914342008-08-22T11:08:00.000+01:002008-08-22T11:08:00.000+01:00Toynbee, that is!Toynbee, that is!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-47318500838961126642008-08-22T11:07:00.000+01:002008-08-22T11:07:00.000+01:00What a horrible woman.What a horrible woman.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com