tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post3107527319418783226..comments2024-03-04T17:54:32.559+00:00Comments on Iain Dale's Diary: The Scottish Question on Newsnight TonightIain Dalehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03270146219458384372noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-49330674167995223762007-10-29T07:09:00.000+00:002007-10-29T07:09:00.000+00:00Dougthedug a dit... "Why is there all the fuss abo...Dougthedug a dit... <BR/><BR/>"Why is there all the fuss about Scottish independence if it makes such financial sense for England?"<BR/><BR/>Answer... Because if nulab ever loses all its Scottish seats at Westminster, its 'natural' majority in the commons will be lost for ever. The gravy train will stop dead for the labour freeloaders. Expecting Brown and Co to ever let that happen is a bit like expecting the inmates of Auchwitz to vote for the Gestapo.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-59106561040446628902007-10-29T07:03:00.000+00:002007-10-29T07:03:00.000+00:00There is no such thing as free money. In fact noth...There is no such thing as free money. In fact nothing is free... especially under nulab.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-4850217170443372292007-10-28T20:24:00.000+00:002007-10-28T20:24:00.000+00:00terry is trying to rebut the argument about who sp...terry is trying to rebut the argument about who spends more per head by including a link which does not lead anywhere. If it did I suspect it show 'identifiable' government expenditure which is a lot less than non identified expenditure a large chunk of which is spent in Greater London or its immediate environs. As an example i'll offer the BBC - the licence fee is just another tax and most of it is spent in London. I could also go on about goverment departments based in and around London, MOD establishments, where does it end in the most subsidised part of the UK?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-21669869974360319932007-10-28T13:09:00.000+00:002007-10-28T13:09:00.000+00:00The probl;em with designating some projects "Btirt...The probl;em with designating some projects "Btirtish" & some "Scots"<"English","Welsh" would be the risk that a disproportionate amount of them would end up in London (as a dispropotionate of top government spending & decision making already is). To designate Crossrail & the Olympics as British spending (& North Sea oil as British income) might justifiably cause ructions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-4459848835637318952007-10-28T12:38:00.000+00:002007-10-28T12:38:00.000+00:00lguxanIt all depends if the Crossrail money is gen...lguxanIt all depends if the Crossrail money is genuinely new or is already part of the Dept of Transport's Departmental Expenditure Limit. If so then the celtic fringes have already recieved their Barnett consequential as part of their overall bloc. Of course the financing of crossrail is a weird amalgam, with as i understand it the City and various other partners making contributions as well as DoT.<BR/><BR/>Barnett is a blunt formula, but it is not really all that difficult to comprehend ...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-69388768745447503172007-10-28T09:25:00.000+00:002007-10-28T09:25:00.000+00:00Ordovicius said "The simple truth is that the only...Ordovicius said <I>"The simple truth is that the only logical and fair way to avoid such "horsetrading" is for Wales (and Scotland) to gain fiscal autonomy."</I><BR/><BR/>The simple truth is that the only logical and fair way to avoid such "horsetrading" is for the formula to be srapped altogether.Terry Heathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08613235351379818011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-48284668447645601772007-10-28T09:20:00.000+00:002007-10-28T09:20:00.000+00:00Neil said I think you mean England should pay the ...Neil said <I>I think you mean England should pay the remaining 74 85ths of the cost of the proposed new Glasgow motorway (or tramnine across Edinburgh currently under construction or new Forth bridge which is being considered). However under the present regime these do, I think correctly, come out of the Scottish budget.</I><BR/><BR/>No Neil, if the Barnett formula exisited in reverse, England would get 11/85ths of the projects cost as extra money to be spent in England. Crazy formula huh?Terry Heathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08613235351379818011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-61547887587045570052007-10-28T01:04:00.000+01:002007-10-28T01:04:00.000+01:00I am genuinely agnostic on who should pay for the ...<I>I am genuinely agnostic on who should pay for the Olympics (just Londoners or the whole UK), but I thought this was an interesting example of why exceptional spend (such as the Olympics or Crossrail) should perhaps be excluded entirely from the formula, to aviod silly horsetrading and unreasonable expectations of extra money.<BR/><BR/>Morus</I><BR/><BR/>The simple truth is that the only logical and fair way to avoid such "horsetrading" is for Wales (and Scotland) to gain fiscal autonomy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-51446122709113476102007-10-28T00:58:00.000+01:002007-10-28T00:58:00.000+01:00Ordovicius, Wales is 1/20th of the population but ...<I>Ordovicius, Wales is 1/20th of the population but contributes less than 1/20th of the revenue.</I><BR/><BR/>Incorrect. Apart from the fact that this assumption is not backed up by any figures, you're ignoring the fact that an extremely high proportion of businesses in Wales are -in terms of taxation- based in England.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-84205170427711698322007-10-27T18:14:00.000+01:002007-10-27T18:14:00.000+01:00There was an interesting story on the front page o...There was an interesting story on the front page of the Western Mail (Wales' national newspaper) some weeks ago about how the 2012 Olympics would 'cost' Wales to the tune of of £435m.<BR/><BR/>When you read the story in more detail, it became clear that the Government in Westminster had cleverly designated the 2012 Olympics a 'British event' - if it had been designated 'English', then the formula would have meant an extra £453m to Wales. The Western Mail considered losing out on this money by re-classifying the spend as 'costing' the Welsh taxpayer.<BR/><BR/>I am genuinely agnostic on who should pay for the Olympics (just Londoners or the whole UK), but I thought this was an interesting example of why exceptional spend (such as the Olympics or Crossrail) should perhaps be excluded entirely from the formula, to aviod silly horsetrading and unreasonable expectations of extra money. <BR/><BR/>MorusAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-34406252214458620322007-10-27T15:32:00.000+01:002007-10-27T15:32:00.000+01:00Ordovicius, Wales is 1/20th of the population but ...Ordovicius, Wales is 1/20th of the population but contributes less than 1/20th of the revenue. By no stretch of the imagination does this mean Wales is subsidising England - not unless you're using the SNP's own special brand of maths where £11.3bn subsidy from the English taxpayer take away £7bn North Sea oil and gas revenues = £several billion subsidy to the rest of the country!<BR/><BR/>To be fair to our mutton munching friends to the west, they're the closest to being self-sufficient out of the 3 master races.wonkotsanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04896256040598397497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-64767264617587150932007-10-27T14:03:00.000+01:002007-10-27T14:03:00.000+01:00Actually it's the Celts who are subsidising the En...Actually it's the Celts who are subsidising the English. Take Wales for example, we're one twentieth of the population, yet we get only one twentyfifth of the budget...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-44999523601468196982007-10-27T13:47:00.000+01:002007-10-27T13:47:00.000+01:00I think you mean England should pay the remaining ...I think you mean England should pay the remaining 74 85ths of the cost of the proposed new Glasgow motorway (or tramnine across Edinburgh currently under construction or new Forth bridge which is being considered). However under the present regime these do, I think correctly, come out of the Scottish budget.neil craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09157898238945726349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-73771313236626471162007-10-27T11:45:00.000+01:002007-10-27T11:45:00.000+01:00Neil, that's a rubbish argument. Infrastructire pr...Neil, that's a rubbish argument. Infrastructire projects should be built on the basis of need. If a new Scottish motorway is built I wouldn't argue that England should get 11/85ths of the cost. Why should it work the other way around?Iain Dalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03270146219458384372noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-33750382803406453212007-10-27T11:34:00.000+01:002007-10-27T11:34:00.000+01:00If taxes go up to cover the billions spent on cros...If taxes go up to cover the billions spent on crossrail they go up across the UK. It is therefore perfectly reasonable that the Scots budget goes up proportionately so that we can spend our proportionn on infrastructure or whatever here.<BR/><BR/>There is a perfectly reasonable argument that we get to high a proportion of overall spending here (there is also a fairly reasonable argument about oil money) but your apparent suggestion that the Scots be happy to pay extra for buiilding a tunnel in London is not reasonable & reflects a somewhat Londoncentric view.neil craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09157898238945726349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-57647366354441063402007-10-27T11:04:00.000+01:002007-10-27T11:04:00.000+01:00Well done Iain. I am always amazed by the number o...Well done Iain. I am always amazed by the number of ill informed, snide remarks from those that seem to think we should put up with these injustices. <BR/><BR/>Chatterbox said…<I>why don't you and your crew go off and argue the toss with SNP and leave the rest of us alone!</I><BR/><BR/>When we have equality, we will. Until then you’ll just have to put up with people wanting to be treated equally with others in this so called Union.<BR/><BR/>dougthedoug said <I>I can't work out why England doesn't demand we hold an independence referendum and support a "yes" vote.</I><BR/><BR/>Since when have the English ever been asked anything? You're the ones with two referenda on devolution and an SNP promise of one on the European Treaty and Independence. If we did have such a thing, you'd be gone tomorrow...see here http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/11/26/nunion26.xml <BR/><BR/>Skip said … <I>in fact, if you divide up english expenditure by region you will find some regions getting more than scotland and some englsih regions doing worse than other english regions.</I><BR/><BR/>In FACT Skip you don’t. Scotland gets more public money than EVERY SINGLE REGION IN ENGLAND AND WALES. See here for the “facts”… http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/economic_data_and_tools/finance_spending_statistics/pes_publications/pespub_pesa07.cfm <BR/><BR/>dougal mcsporran said... <I>Whose oil is it anyway?</I><BR/><BR/>It is UK oil. That is unless Scotland became independent overnight.<BR/><BR/>Ethelred the Unhinged said... <I>The reason for the fuss is that the Tories dislike the Scots because they never vote Conservative.</I><BR/><BR/>No, if you take Scotland out of the equation Labour would still have won the last three elections, including 2005 when the Tories won the popular vote. See here for the FACTS http://www.psr.keele.ac.uk/area/uk/ge05/seats.htm<BR/><BR/>Mark said <I>If you do your research you will see that the biggest discrepancy in public spening isn't between Scotland and England, but between London and other English regions.</I><BR/><BR/>If you do a bit more research Mark, you’ll see that the largest discrepancy is between Scotland and everyone else except Northern Ireland. (see Pesa reference above)Terry Heathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08613235351379818011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-25736307172006334512007-10-27T10:54:00.000+01:002007-10-27T10:54:00.000+01:00The Scots need to get over this childishness about...The Scots need to get over this childishness about them 'owning' UK North Sea oil.<BR/><BR/>Britain has a large chunk of the North Sea because of the Royal Navy, which is to say mainly because of England.<BR/><BR/>The sooner Scotland goes and fends for itself the better. It may be allowed a reasonable share of oil revenues - between 2% and 2.5% would be about right.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-7671662984269776932007-10-27T10:44:00.000+01:002007-10-27T10:44:00.000+01:00Thinking of our friend Mr Salmond, I'm surprised h...Thinking of our friend Mr Salmond, I'm surprised how practically no bloggers have picked up on the Scottish Lib Dem leader Nicol Stephen's question at the most recent First Ministers Question time. <BR/><BR/>You can see it on the Scottish Parliament's website, but Stephen raises a fairly shocking fact:<BR/><BR/>"During the recess, we were told that the First Minister had written to the states that are party to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty to ask for their help to get him observer status at their meetings. Did a shiver run up his spine as he signed letters to the Governments of some of the most despotic, repressive, undemocratic, villainous regimes in the world: Iran, Burma and Zimbabwe?<BR/><BR/>The First Minister often talks about an arc of prosperity, but he has just written letters to countries in an arc of repression. The situation in Zimbabwe gets worse and worse. Just as the whole world is moving to cast out President Mugabe as a pariah, Scotland's First Minister invites him back in. Dear Robert, he writes,<BR/><BR/>"I would hope we would be able to count on your government's support ... Please do not hesitate to contact me if you or your government wish to discuss these issues further."<BR/><BR/>Best wishes, Alex.<BR/><BR/>Is the First Minister so obsessed with getting a seat in the ante-room at the United Nations? Did he write to Iran, Zimbabwe and Burma? Is there any regime, dictatorship or one-party state to which he will not beg to help the cause of Scottish independence?"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-83470107500519718232007-10-27T02:59:00.000+01:002007-10-27T02:59:00.000+01:00The McMafia have been screwing England for years ,...The McMafia have been screwing England for years ,not only by means of the Barnett Rules in many other ways too.<BR/><BR/>eg constituency sizes. Just why is it that English constituency sizes<BR/>have to be 15-20000 voters larger than in Scotland ?<BR/> Isle of Wight , 1 MP for 106,000 voters<BR/><BR/> Western Isles , 1 MP for 23,000 voters- they have an MSP too!<BR/><BR/> And why can't England have a national parliamnet just like them ?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-39756360692529543522007-10-27T01:29:00.000+01:002007-10-27T01:29:00.000+01:00Mark:Scotland does not contribute "oil revenues" t...Mark:<BR/><BR/>Scotland does not contribute "oil revenues" to the UK. The oil is a UK resource. Should Scotland and England split, then the maritime border must be adjusted (it was tweaked by the UK govermment in the 1960s, without consulting the English) which will alter the oil allocation somewhat.<BR/><BR/>Also, "English regions" - if Scotland is a nation, than so is England. The English electorate has never voted for balkanisation into regions (the North East, the only area allowed a referendum, voted 78% against).<BR/><BR/>Also, whilst we're on the subject of oil, I have read views from the Orkneys that much of the oil belongs to them and that they are not historically part of Scotland and should strive for independence!<BR/><BR/>Interesting times...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-7592430082257957062007-10-27T00:11:00.000+01:002007-10-27T00:11:00.000+01:00to all the jocks that come on here,the argument is...to all the jocks that come on here,the argument is why can Scotland and Wales afford free prescriptions etc.but Scottish MP's running England cannot provide the same for England?<BR/>It seems Gordon can only afford socialism in the celtic fringe.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-91855445016026556882007-10-27T00:05:00.000+01:002007-10-27T00:05:00.000+01:00Saw your interview on Newsnight Iain and fully agr...Saw your interview on Newsnight Iain and fully agree with what you said. Also heard Alex Salmond who is running rings round his Labour opponents north and south of the border. No-one I speak to in England begrudges the Scots the right to decide how to spend their money how they wish. Most of the Scots I speak to think the English should have the same right. The trouble is that the same governmemnt which gave the Scots this facility refuses point blank to allow the English the same 'sovereign right to choose the form of government best suited to their needs'. We in England are powerless - more people voted Conservative in England in 2005 but we got Blair and now we have Brown. We don't have PR, we don't have an English parliament, we don't have an English government, we don't have a First minister. We have Brown and his cronies who keep bleating that (a) we can't have 'two classes of MPs' at Westminster and (b) that we must not disturb the sacred Union by allowing the English any self-government. That leaves us with only one solution - leave the Union.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-47774960642896233162007-10-26T23:31:00.000+01:002007-10-26T23:31:00.000+01:00I clicked on the comments section to this post exp...I clicked on the comments section to this post expecting to find lots of puerile 'ditch the Scots' style rantings - so it was a pleasant surprise to see the measured remarks of the posters so far.<BR/><BR/>It seems your readers have a broader perspective on this issue than you Iain.<BR/><BR/>If you do your research you will see that the biggest discrepancy in public spening isn't between Scotland and England, but between London and other English regions.<BR/><BR/>Would also be interesting to see what Scotland contributes to the public purse (oil revenues et al) per head of population compared to certain English regions of comparable population.<BR/><BR/>It's fair to say that there is a constitutional imbalance since the formation of the Scottish parliament but a scattergun 'Scots are subsidy junkies' approach is a cretinous mode of argument.<BR/><BR/>Salmond's playing a great hand at the moment - and maybe deep down the Tories, with the potential of being the largest party in England within their reach,desire Scottish independence to give them a shot at power. But while the UK is intact they need to win seats in Scotland and Wales to win an election and this kind of sloganeering is the very essence of shooting themselves in the foot.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05649491689196103228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-54769049356316413832007-10-26T23:27:00.000+01:002007-10-26T23:27:00.000+01:00Please tell me that Scotland won't also get a prop...Please tell me that Scotland won't also get a proportionate chunk of Hackney's Olympics billions too? That would be the final straw....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-85758313819173003992007-10-26T23:22:00.000+01:002007-10-26T23:22:00.000+01:00Never give up, Iain. You have many, many supporte...Never give up, Iain. You have many, many supporters and your passion for justice sets you aside from many in Westminster, who merely feed from their hosts, but serve no purpose.<BR/>Here's another one that is nothing short of a national disgrace - <BR/>Prescriptions are free in Wales. Soon to be free in Scotland.<BR/>In England, the Scottish Chancellor has continuously raised the prices and the money taken from the English for their prescriptions goes into the government's tax coffers and is then divided up and a large share goes to the Celtic fringes.<BR/>We are seeing our wards and hospitals closing, we are denied the same access to life saving drugs that our neighbours get for free - and we are also taxed on our own medicines to ensure that the neighbours CAN get their for free.<BR/>Where's the justice in that? Why isn't that money going to the English NHS?<BR/>One of Gordon's last acts as Chancellor was to slash £2bn from the ENGLISH NHS. He left the Welsh, NI and Scottish NHS intact, even though they too should have been lowered by way of the barnett formula.<BR/>If our own MPs do not speak out in our defence, what hope is there for the weakest and most needy in England?<BR/>Shame on those who find the unecessary deaths of our fellow citizens and discriminatory taxes boring!!<BR/>This is apratheid rule! Silence is the character of a coward.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com