tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post276925878587215799..comments2024-03-04T17:54:32.559+00:00Comments on Iain Dale's Diary: Why Are Rural Arts Initiatives Being Cut?Iain Dalehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03270146219458384372noreply@blogger.comBlogger68125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-88016400090452628302008-01-13T16:56:00.000+00:002008-01-13T16:56:00.000+00:00I note in today's Guardian that the British Counci...I note in today's Guardian that the British Council's art department is also being shut down.<BR/><BR/>Coincidence?<BR/><BR/>http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/art/2008/01/i_am_shocked_and_distressed_by.htmlcopydudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15643509201486589477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-32527617758576765042008-01-12T13:49:00.000+00:002008-01-12T13:49:00.000+00:00Toots - With respect, obviously you know what you ...Toots - With respect, obviously you know what you are talking about re trains and buses, but your entertainment in your village is not the responsibility of the taxpayer. <BR/><BR/>Having weighed up the advantages of living there, you presumably also weighed up the disadvantages, and chose to say. It is not up to some very well paid unelected quango paid from taxes to compensate you for the disadvantages out of money taken from taxpayers. The socialists have created an entitlement society, which is destructive.<BR/><BR/>I do believe that children should be subsidised to go on theatre trips because it is part of their education. With respect, live entertainment for adults is not a part of the government's/quangos' business. Lookslike Darcey Bussell and the whisky for you.<BR/><BR/>I have an eerie feeling that these unelected, pointless quangoes also perpetrate mimes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-18661200265882756572008-01-12T11:38:00.000+00:002008-01-12T11:38:00.000+00:00Verity says "They understand that they can get on ...Verity says <I>"They understand that they can get on a train or a bus and go to the nearest big city to go to art galleries and an evening, or afternoon, performance."</I><BR/><BR/>Which shows the bottomless depth of your understanding. Bus? Train? The nearest train to here is 45 minutes drive away. And buses? Don't make me laugh.<BR/><BR/>So without arts coming to the villages the elderly, the rural poor and children would be left permanently sitting at home with a video of Darcy Bussell and a whisky (hopefully not the children though).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-87243140938834311582008-01-11T22:28:00.000+00:002008-01-11T22:28:00.000+00:00Oh, dear! John M lurches in on right on cue to pr...Oh, dear! John M lurches in on right on cue to prove my point.<BR/><BR/>No engagement in the discussion. Just insults. Insults. Insults.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-44636313329176463312008-01-11T16:16:00.000+00:002008-01-11T16:16:00.000+00:00john mtu quoquejohn m<BR/><BR/>tu quoqueAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-60646142126989784772008-01-11T15:17:00.000+00:002008-01-11T15:17:00.000+00:00I only read Verity's remarks for the fun of seeing...I only read Verity's remarks for the fun of seeing some-one so utterly defeated struggle to put up a fight. The vituperative rubbish spills out, accusing her victims of the very ad hominem claptrap that is her unique characteristic on this site. <BR/><BR/>Learn to discern, old thing, it's never too late. Read somethiing other than vacuous drivel on the internet blog sites. Try some literature - you can probably download some for free nowadays.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-23661992467953230312008-01-11T15:12:00.000+00:002008-01-11T15:12:00.000+00:00VerityWhat (if anything) do you think it is the st...Verity<BR/><BR/>What (if anything) do you think it is the state's business to be a patron of?<BR/><BR/>As you have identified there are at least 2 issues:<BR/><BR/>1. (Funding) Should the State force people i.e. tax payers to pay for some specific goods or services?<BR/>2. (Purchasing) Should the State or people purchase those goods/services?<BR/><BR/>You've suggested (1) that the state should force people to pay for the public's education but that (2) people should themselves determine what the money is spent on.<BR/><BR/>Just on the funding issue, what else do you think the state should patronise, on e way or another?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-6836291424891745832008-01-11T14:12:00.000+00:002008-01-11T14:12:00.000+00:00Canvas and John Michael - Why is the left so univ...Canvas and John Michael - Why is the left so universally trite?<BR/><BR/>Why do they never address the argument of those with an opposing view, but get stuck right into the insults? Well, I suppose it saves time ...<BR/><BR/>You will note here and elsewhere, that people on the right try to argue the issues - until they realise that the issues in the collective consciousness of the left, is "I am right so you will do it my way." After which the right will sometimes deliver a verbal torpedo that is equally irrelevant to the issue.<BR/><BR/>We on the right have stated that we do not believe an over-mighty government has any business diverting taxpayers' money to taking "art to the people", because we understand the human impulse to go after what they want without any prompting from the government. Anyone who wants to go to the theatre, will go. <BR/><BR/>These arts subsidies, and I don't care how small they are, are robbery and are for the benefit of writers, artists and luvvies, not the audiences. No one has persuaded me that it is the business of the state to be a patron of the arts, a la the USSR.<BR/><BR/><I>"There really isn't any need to insult contributors, Verity, it merely exposes your own lack of intellect (even more than your analyses do!)"</I> With an exclamation point!!!!! The crutch of the inarticulate. Regarding your assessment of my "intellect", you took your degree in psychology where? <BR/><BR/>Every single one of you lefties descends to personal insults the minute your fingers hit the keys. This is why no one reads your turgid, predictable posts all the way through.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-38610449288236789002008-01-11T13:55:00.000+00:002008-01-11T13:55:00.000+00:00So if it is subjective, whose subjective opinion s...So if it is subjective, whose subjective opinion should be able to choose it? Art vouchers would, like education vouchers, enable joe public to choose, rather than just Sir Humphrey.<BR/><BR/>There would be some kerfuffle over whether an event qualified for an art voucher (it would make the "is it art?" debate a bit more meaty) - but book / record tokens seem to have managed to live with those nuances for years.<BR/><BR/>On a wider point, why have any vouchers at all? Why not just transfer cash? Grandparents give book tokens rather than cash for obvious reasons, but the vouchers are valued at less than their face value (partly because many are not redeemed).<BR/><BR/>Why is an educated public a public rather than private good? People take their education with them and emigrate to the highest salaries.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-27170269135055494572008-01-11T12:49:00.000+00:002008-01-11T12:49:00.000+00:00anon, it's all subjective.all great chefs eat at M...anon, it's all subjective.<BR/><BR/>all great chefs eat at McDonalds.<BR/><BR/>high brow loves low brow, low brow loves high brow.<BR/><BR/>so what?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-57824560867089423742008-01-11T12:01:00.000+00:002008-01-11T12:01:00.000+00:00canvas you scupper the case by overstating it.A lo...canvas you scupper the case by overstating it.<BR/><BR/>A lot of art is shit, and a lot of artists are greedy bores, no more devoted to the public good than greedy cabinet ministers.<BR/><BR/>Verity - do you support art vouchers?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-43964518060160341372008-01-11T10:12:00.000+00:002008-01-11T10:12:00.000+00:00Verity, Like I said, you just don't 'get it'.Comme...Verity, Like I said, you just don't 'get it'.<BR/><BR/>Commercialism, orthodoxy and taste are the enemies of art. <BR/><BR/>As our society gets more and more materialistic we tend to overlook the importance of art. <BR/><BR/>Perhaps Sir John Tusa explains it best:<BR/><BR/>"The arts matter because they are local and relevant to the needs and wishes of local people. They help citizens to express their needs and to clothe them in memorable forms. They offer a way of expressing ideas and wishes that ordinary politics do not allow. The arts regenerate the rundown and rehabilitate the neglected. Arts buildings lift the spirits, create symbols that people identify with, and give identity to places that may not have one. Where the arts start, jobs follow. Anywhere that neglects the arts shortchanges its people."<BR/><BR/>"Now all of that is true. The arts have acted as a pole of economic and social regeneration in many places. At the same time, it is worth insisting (as the architect David Chipperfield has pointed out) that while the arts may be a necessary condition of post-industrial regeneration, they are not a sufficient condition. The so-called Bilbao effect was not achieved primarily by building Frank Gehry's Guggenheim museum. That building followed a period of sustained local-government investment in infrastructure, including a new underground system."<BR/><BR/>"The final value of the arts cannot be predicted or quantified; to curtail them on these grounds is to deny the possibility of an unpredictable benefit. The risk of funding the arts offers benefits far greater than the immediate gains of not funding them. The arts link society to its past, a people to its inherited store of ideas, images and words; yet the arts challenge those links in order to find ways of exploring new paths and ventures. The arts are evolutionary and revolutionary; they listen, recall and lead. They resist the homogeneous, strengthen the individual and are independent in the face of the pressures of the mass, the bland, the undifferentiated. In a postmodern world, in which individual creativity has never mattered more, the arts provide the opportunity for developing this characteristic. The investment in the arts is so small, the actual return so large, that it represents value as research into ideas."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-11805319144815894262008-01-11T09:56:00.000+00:002008-01-11T09:56:00.000+00:00"Anyone who wants to see a play can do so in Brita..."Anyone who wants to see a play can do so in Britain."<BR/><BR/>Very true, and largely because the arts are subsidised.<BR/><BR/>Shakespeare certainly required subsidy, as have most artists since and before. Some decades ago, we in the UK decided to devote a relatively small amount of taxpayer money to supplement the patronage of individuals. nothing wrong with that.<BR/><BR/>There really isn't any need to insult contributors, Verity, it merely exposes your own lack of intellect (even more than your analyses do!)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-85476528597772542632008-01-11T01:07:00.000+00:002008-01-11T01:07:00.000+00:00[10:49] - It's no one's responsibility to take the...[10:49] - It's no one's responsibility to take the arts to rural areas. People live in rural areas by choice - whether work or inclination. They understand that they are not living in London or Glasgow.<BR/><BR/>They understand that they can get on a train or a bus and go to the nearest big city to go to art galleries and an evening, or afternoon, performance. <BR/><BR/>what is all this boondoggle of taking performance to villages, as though Britain wasn't a tiny country where you can go to London or Newcastle in a couple of hours, watch a performance, go to an art gallery, have a meal and go home again? It's not like Russians living on the Steppes in the middle of winter, for heaven's sakes. Anyone who wants to see a play can do so in Britain.<BR/><BR/>Alternatively, they can rent a video. It's not the same as seeing her live in a theatre, but watching a video of Darcy Bussell is still transporting. Plus you can have a whisky.<BR/><BR/>This is another socialist boondoogle. <BR/><BR/>So is the Olympics, by the way. Socialist One Worlders.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-4919980180897901832008-01-10T22:49:00.000+00:002008-01-10T22:49:00.000+00:00Verity -Perhaps what you're saying could be expres...Verity -<BR/><BR/>Perhaps what you're saying could be expressed as two related issues - whether arts should be funded at all and what role market choices should play in financing the arts. Would it sit comfortably with your values if funding was linked to earned income (so what people don't pay to go and see isn't funded, but what they do, gets a proportionate match)?<BR/><BR/>Although, following what jdc said, this is likely to result in a big shift away from rural areas.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-89173449920415459992008-01-10T22:15:00.000+00:002008-01-10T22:15:00.000+00:00[9:35] I believe in vouchers for education. It is...[9:35] I believe in vouchers for education. It is taxpayer money being spent for the benefit of the taxpayer (an educated population) rather than half a dozen quangoes and hundreds if no thousands of people who feel their "art" is so important to the welfare of the nation that it should be subsidized by people who actually work and pay taxes.<BR/><BR/>If people want a house or a car or an evening at the theatre, they will pay for it. People are more than willing to fork over money for something they want. This "funding" forces people to fork over their money for something they have proved they <I>don't</I> want by not buying tickets.<BR/><BR/>If it's not good enough to motivate people to pay for it, why should it be subsidised so it can be offered free? <BR/><BR/>I can even see subsidised tickets for OAPs and groups of school children. All others, pay for what you want to go and see. You don't need a middleman in the form of the taxpayer and a committee of quangocrats.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-40111228087169408012008-01-10T21:44:00.000+00:002008-01-10T21:44:00.000+00:00The fact that Damien Hirst could find buyers for h...The fact that Damien Hirst could find buyers for his Shark and his diamond-encrusted Skull, and that Chris Ofile can find millionaires to buy his elephant dung 'creations' is evidence that there are private funds available to subsidise the arts.<BR/><BR/>Why don't the rich and famous actors give some of their Hollywood fees to the struggling provincial theatres? Sean Connery could probably buy and run 6 of them for 25 years without noticing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-55650442146582162902008-01-10T21:35:00.000+00:002008-01-10T21:35:00.000+00:00verity, presumably you extend the free-market argu...verity, presumably you extend the free-market argument to other private goods like education. <BR/><BR/>If it's any good, people will pay more than it costs and it will happen. School and University budgets should therefore immediately be cut to zero, no matter what the real cost of bankruptcies. <BR/><BR/>Is that really what you are proposing?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-11870775598919109142008-01-10T18:43:00.000+00:002008-01-10T18:43:00.000+00:00Re v's comment 'if it's any good the door receipts...Re v's comment 'if it's any good the door receipts will pay for it' and verity's comment that she doesn't see why the arts should be subsidised:<BR/><BR/>The arts paying their way would only be true in a situation where 'the arts' as a whole were very different from how they are now. For example, little opera, ballet or large scale classical music can pay its way, a point accentuated by the need for substantial investment 'upstream' to train performers.<BR/><BR/>Art galleries can make some money from ticketed blockbuster exhibitions and sponsorship, but not sufficient to run a major gallery, let alone cover the cost of acquisitions.<BR/><BR/>Geographical disparities would become even greater than at present. London can support large-scale commercial art and theatre sectors, but where else could?<BR/><BR/>Some people would be comfortable with this scenario, of course. But it's worth being clear that it's not a case of saving a bit of money and things being more or less the same.<BR/><BR/>Of course you may think it would be good to reduce grant-dependency over time. But if you wanted to achieve that, you may find yourself recommending many of the steps that ACE are curently putting in place: focussing funding on organisations that it believes are well run, forward-thinking, responsive to audiences, businesslike and innovative.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1300245921822562062008-01-10T18:33:00.000+00:002008-01-10T18:33:00.000+00:00Canvas - Thanks for the lefty boilerplate and for ...Canvas - Thanks for the lefty boilerplate and for your invitation to read Saturday's Guardian to have it explained to me. Unfortunately, I have a previous engagement. <BR/><BR/>You say: "If you don't support the arts and artists - then you don't deserve to live in a civilised society."<BR/><BR/>Actually, I do support them, darling. I buy tickets, which is what people in civilised societies do.<BR/><BR/>If someone can find a wealthy patron, which the artists of yore were wont to do, good luck to that person. I don't believe Shakespeare ever got a grant or, as you lefties call it "funding". <BR/><BR/>If a piece of work has appeal to the public, a paying audience will gladly hand over their money at the box office. If it doesn't attract the public, that means it's not wanted. Not that it should be subsidized at the point of a gun.<BR/><BR/>[5:20] If something doesn't find a market, that means the public isn't interested. It isn't up to "funding" quangoes to work against the public interest by giving money to productions that people won't pay to see.<BR/><BR/>This dream of bringing performances to "the people" who can't afford it is rubbish. First, they can afford plasma TVs and holidays abroad on their welfare cheques, so why not the theatre? Could it be because they prefer TV?<BR/><BR/>Do these "funding" quangoes ever give money to right wing productions? Just askin'.<BR/><BR/>Socialist rhetoric is not going to make you any converts here. Taxpayers have other things to spend the small amount of money the mighty state allows them to keep on.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-36998868906046026292008-01-10T17:42:00.000+00:002008-01-10T17:42:00.000+00:00Jeremy Vine did a programme on this last week, and...Jeremy Vine did a programme on this last week, and interviewed people from the Northcott Theatre in Exeter and other theatres. The theatres are jumping through all the hoops that government requires them to, but the money is cut off anyway. The problem is not just rural (places like Exeter and Ipswich are cities). Why is this happening? Every decision is taken by Gordon Brown: presumably he just doesn't like people who go to the theatre, and it is in his power to hurt them.<BR/><BR/>Tom Bower exposes Brown's ignorance of rural affairs. Apparently Brown was in the country and saw a cow with its newborn calf from the window of his car, and said, "Look, it's had a foal!"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-8802053164031169632008-01-10T17:20:00.001+00:002008-01-10T17:20:00.001+00:00Subsidy is necessary in order for two things to ha...Subsidy is necessary in order for two things to happen.<BR/><BR/>First, that the creative energy of artists can be encouraged and not stymied.<BR/><BR/>Second, that a larger proportion of people can enjoy the creative fruits of such energy than would be able to if prices were not subsidised.<BR/><BR/>There are economic arguments in favour as well (tourism, international business relations etc.), but that's probably a bit complicated for a mere "anon" to engage with here. i look forward to Iain's promised piece on the subject.<BR/><BR/>If you've never understood that, you've never really lived.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-15379274662683082752008-01-10T17:20:00.000+00:002008-01-10T17:20:00.000+00:00Subsidy is necessary in order for two things to ha...Subsidy is necessary in order for two things to happen.<BR/><BR/>First, that the creative energy of artists can be encouraged and not stymied.<BR/><BR/>Second, that a larger proportion of people can enjoy the creative fruits of such energy than would be able to if prices were not subsidised.<BR/><BR/>There are economic arguments in favour as well (tourism, international business relations etc.), but that's probably a bit complicated for a mere "anon" to engage with here. i look forward to Iain's promised piece on the subject.<BR/><BR/>If you've never understood that, you've never really lived.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-45558732796354516402008-01-10T17:11:00.000+00:002008-01-10T17:11:00.000+00:00Verity - "I have never understood why "the arts" s...Verity - "I have never understood why "the arts" should be subsidised"...<BR/><BR/><BR/>If you don't 'get it' then you don't 'get it'. You either understand the importance of making art and culture accessible - or you just don't get it.<BR/><BR/>Culture is important and art is for all (not just the wealthy or the educated). If you don't support the arts and artists - then you don't deserve to live in a civilised society.<BR/><BR/>I think it's disgraceful that the British Council is getting rid of their art department. Read the Guardian on Saturday to learn more about this tragedy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-17506467733411910252008-01-10T16:56:00.000+00:002008-01-10T16:56:00.000+00:00'World class street theatre, circus and carnival i...'World class street theatre, circus and carnival in the 5 host boroughs and around London' -<BR/><BR/>oh my god, as an East London resident, shivers of apprehension not to mention fear run down my spine - for crying out loud, why hasn't anyone asked me if I mind my city being mauled like this, and if I mind paying for it too?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com