tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post247658056498227365..comments2024-03-04T17:54:32.559+00:00Comments on Iain Dale's Diary: When Hospitals Kill: An Explosive Open Letter from David Lidington MPIain Dalehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03270146219458384372noreply@blogger.comBlogger61125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-32953875458543285372007-10-15T19:19:00.000+01:002007-10-15T19:19:00.000+01:00And two days later the Chairman of Maidstone has '...And two days later the Chairman of Maidstone has 'stepped down' - having been leant on by Paul Carter 'Leader' of KCC.<BR/><BR/>But what about the payoffs? What about the other board members? Are they to cling on to their stipends and exalted positions?<BR/><BR/>And while we're at it Mr Carter has a very interesting history - take a look at his relationships, some of which are seen here: http://save-wye.org/Unsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08307116169498533047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-27861547103800255082007-10-14T00:50:00.000+01:002007-10-14T00:50:00.000+01:00Thank you, Aardvark. That was very interesting. I...Thank you, Aardvark. That was very interesting. It is interesting that people - without microscopes (I assume)and other modern means of detection - had determined that there were "germs" in the air, although they couldn't see them or identify them. But knew they were opportunistic.<BR/><BR/>This seems a great leap in Western medicine. My fugess (unfounded) is that the French would have made the same discovery at around the same time. It would be interesting to know whether the Greeks or the Romans had figured out that there were airborne infections.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-21192433830078177832007-10-13T23:45:00.000+01:002007-10-13T23:45:00.000+01:00verity said... "Who told her that sewers and poor ...verity said... "<I>Who told her that sewers and poor ventilation were dangerous?<BR/><BR/>I'm asking because I really would like to know if someone was thinking along those lines - especially the bad ventilation - so long ago. Whoever made that leap of understanding was brilliant for the time.</I><BR/><BR/>I don’t know who told her about the health hazards of poor sanitation and inadequate ventilation in the mid 1850s. Some years previously it had become known in medical circles that many infections were air-borne or spread by contaminated water, but hardly any nurses would have been aware of that.<BR/><BR/>When government Sanitary Commissioners descended on the Scutari Hospital in 1855 they cleared the blocked sewers and improved the ventilation. There was a dramatic reduction in the mortality rate (from 40% down to 2%).<BR/><BR/>After returning to Britain Florence Nightingale carried out a statistical study comparing mortality rates at Scutari (which was actually in Turkey) with those in field hospitals during the Crimean War. She was horrified to find that (prior to the Sanitary Commissioners’ visit) the Scutari mortality rates were considerably higher than in the field hospitals. Only then did she fully accept the sewerage/ventilation arguments. <BR/><BR/>She was full of remorse for the excess deaths for which she felt responsible. The result was that she started her campaign for improved hospital standards and nursing training which subsequently saved millions of lives.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-59142662354728983092007-10-13T23:09:00.000+01:002007-10-13T23:09:00.000+01:00everyone is culpable just pay your taxes and autom...everyone is culpable just pay your taxes and automatically public services must be improved. NONSENSE labour have squandered billions of pounds. 100 BILLION per year on the NNDS alone and they cant even CLEAN the wards . PATHETICAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-76011999428103416902007-10-13T16:04:00.000+01:002007-10-13T16:04:00.000+01:00Aardvark - I'm not being argumentative; this is a ...Aardvark - I'm not being argumentative; this is a genuine question: Who told her that sewers and poor ventilation were dangerous?<BR/><BR/>I'm asking because I really would like to know if someone was thinking along those lines - especially the bad ventilation - so long ago. Whoever made that leap of understanding was brilliant for the time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-51417121635033452022007-10-13T12:41:00.000+01:002007-10-13T12:41:00.000+01:00verity said... "Aardvark - and the "poor sanitatio...verity said... <BR/>"<I>Aardvark - and the "poor sanitation" was Florence Nightingale's fault? What was she - a civil engineer?</I>”<BR/><BR/>Florence Nightingale was what we would now call a Hospital Administrator and should have called on engineers to deal with the defective sewers. She was aware of the sewer problem at Scutari but refused to accept that it was the cause of the very high death rates. She was convinced that the deaths from cholera, dysentery, etc were due to poor nutrition. <BR/><BR/>Trumpeter Lanfried said... <BR/><I>ardvark [10.50 PM] You may be right about Florence Nightingale's infection rates, which some say haunted her till the end of her days. But I assume you would not criticise her methods; single-minded, hands-on determination to do the best she could for her patients.</I><BR/><BR/>We all owe a debt of gratitude to Florence Nightingale. She transformed standards of nursing care in this country. However, thousands of sick soldiers died at Scutari because of her refusal to accept that poor sewers and inadequate ventilation were major factors.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-31422667277026029192007-10-13T12:16:00.000+01:002007-10-13T12:16:00.000+01:00Iain If you google bed occupancy rates and mrsa an...Iain If you google bed occupancy rates and mrsa and hospital infection, you will find several studies showing a correlation between bed occupancy greater than 85% and higher rates of infection.<BR/><BR/>The 18 week targets mean that hospitals are working flat out (unlike private hospitals, the NHS has to cope with emergencies).<BR/><BR/>No amount of hand washing will prevent this. Beds have to be cleaned and aired. There needs to be more space between patients etc.<BR/><BR/>Alan Johnson 'not accepting' this, is like saying he doesn't 'accept' Newton's Laws of motion.<BR/><BR/>Angry Hospital ConsultantAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-6454160986448384902007-10-13T11:46:00.000+01:002007-10-13T11:46:00.000+01:00chuck unsworth [9.47 AM] You refer to severance, i...chuck unsworth [9.47 AM] You refer to severance, including 'a major bung, with a silencing clause for both sides.'<BR/><BR/>How often have we seen this! I would like to see a simple statute making all such clauses unenforceable in the case of public employees, except where national security or official secrets are involved.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-10421606361176206622007-10-13T09:47:00.000+01:002007-10-13T09:47:00.000+01:00Both Rose Gibb and her delightful consort, Mark Re...Both Rose Gibb and her delightful consort, Mark Rees, have major form with regard to (mis)management of NHS Trusts. It's worth checking out their history for confirmation.<BR/><BR/>But in the case of Maidstone the real culprits are those who appointed her to that position without paying close attention to her previous 'career'. What did they do to satisfy themselves as to her suitability as a candidate, and what did they subsequently do to monitor her (lack of) activities? The Chairman and his fellow trustees/directors should all step down. But you can bet that they'll plead that they were misled - whilst giving her a major bung, with a silencing clause for both sides.Unsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08307116169498533047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-77097559263058027202007-10-13T09:40:00.000+01:002007-10-13T09:40:00.000+01:00ardvark [10.50 PM] You may be right about Florence...ardvark [10.50 PM] You may be right about Florence Nightingale's infection rates, which some say haunted her till the end of her days. But I assume you would not criticise her methods; single-minded, hands-on determination to do the best she could for her patients.<BR/><BR/>One of her first reforms, at Scutari, was to have a dead horse removed from the water supply. So she was starting from a pretty low base.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-18120320403939337202007-10-13T09:18:00.000+01:002007-10-13T09:18:00.000+01:00Sea Shanty Irish:My brother lives across from you ...Sea Shanty Irish:<BR/><BR/>My brother lives across from you in Ohio so I have more sympathy for you than Verity, at least in his/her present mood.<BR/><BR/>But I think we're misled by the word "health" in the NHS. As my doctor friend has always said, it's the National Sickness Service. Far better not to need it at all. <BR/><BR/>Ivan Illich pointed out years ago that most of the improvement in life expectancy over the last generations has been down to better housing, food and plumbing. <BR/><BR/>I think we're in a new stage, where advances in health will come from finding ways not to get sick from surfeit (food), poisoning (alcohol, drugs) and sloth (TV, computers, the car).Sackersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09410040031410954403noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-35157507036344870982007-10-13T03:08:00.000+01:002007-10-13T03:08:00.000+01:00Shanty Irish or whatever your handle is: PPS - We...Shanty Irish or whatever your handle is: <BR/><BR/>PPS - We are talking about over 300 of our own old people dying horribly and in indignity, which they did not deserve. We are addressing this question of our own folk and how we can get redress for them.<BR/><BR/>Bugger off.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-2715114705328422592007-10-13T01:47:00.000+01:002007-10-13T01:47:00.000+01:00PS - Expecting to engage foreigners in a saga abou...PS - Expecting to engage foreigners in a saga about a firefighter on the West Coast of the US and "little bitty children" of the United States tells us how ethnocentric the less educated Americans are. That is 7,000 miles away.<BR/><BR/>We all feel a pang when a firefighter dies in any country, including China or Poland (much closer to us) or wherever a hero has died or been injured trying to save another's life.<BR/><BR/>But that you feel you are unique and we should connect and take up your grievances because it happened in the United States endorses the general view that Americans are self-regarding.<BR/><BR/>Have you researched the number of our own British firefighters who have been horribly injured in the cause of saving the life of another? <BR/><BR/>For some reason, you just piss me off.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-76314521971788481262007-10-13T01:16:00.000+01:002007-10-13T01:16:00.000+01:00Sea Shanty Irish - Indeed, health care system in B...Sea Shanty Irish - <I>Indeed, health care system in BOTH the UK and US would collapse without constant infusion of doctors and nurses from the Third World.</I><BR/><BR/>Incorrect. <BR/><BR/>Indigenous BRITISH doctors, trained in BRITAIN and their training paid for by BRITISH taxpayers are finding there are no jobs to apply for because they are all awarded ahead of time to third worlders who don't understand British mores. And even if they did seek an understanding of British mores, our own doctors should be at the head of the queue because they belong on our islands and we paid to for their education. <BR/><BR/>This is an intentional destabilisation of the Britain and has partly led to the horrible, pointless hundreds of deaths in British hospitals.<BR/><BR/>Some of these incomers - unneeded in any case - are ignorant, thick-headed and are not sympatico with advanced British culture. Some are resentful and cruel.<BR/><BR/>I wonder how we can find out how many of the nurses on these affected wards were from the third world.<BR/><BR/>Meanwhile, our British-trained doctors go to the United States.<BR/><BR/>I have a sincere lack of interest in your medical payment problems in the United States, including those for "little bitty children". <BR/><BR/>I don't care whether your insurance companies pay out because I believe that is a domestic problem better solved by representations to your senators rather than whining on a British blog. <BR/><BR/>Be assured, no one here gives a monkey's about your problems. We have too many of our own.<BR/><BR/>If you want nationalised medicine, be prepared for all the Sovietesque horrors, as are being currently witnessed in Britain.<BR/><BR/>I cannot imagine why on earth you are posting on a British political blog when you are so clearly ignorant of the politics and daily concerns of the British. Because we are members of the Anglosphere does not mean our political circumstances, or our problems, relate to one another.<BR/><BR/>This is a conservative blog. We don't believe in socialised anything. Go and whine at Harry's Place, but they won't care either. Neither will an Australian or Malaysian blog.<BR/><BR/>Go and solve your own problems.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-375758401201108502007-10-13T00:09:00.000+01:002007-10-13T00:09:00.000+01:00Verity, you have a point about ADULTS needing to l...Verity, you have a point about ADULTS needing to look out for their own welfare. (Though how can it be good for the rest of us if someone has a chronic, serious, untreated and COMMUNICABLE disease?) <BR/><BR/>BUT what about little bitty CHILDREN (or even not-so-tiny teenage minors) who are sick or injured? Is it right to make them suffer because their parents were lazy, shiftless, irresponsible, unlucky, whatever? <BR/><BR/>As for the adults, please note that in the USA, the traditional system of employer-based health care (with coverage as a work benefit) is crumbling, while the premiums for independent (non-employer) coverage are already extortionate and keep on skyrocketing. <BR/><BR/>Plus even if you HAVE coverage, many people find that the insurance companies simply won't pay up when you REALLY need it. <BR/><BR/>For example, in WA state there is the case of a fire fire fighter who died because the insurance company underwriting most of his workers compensation refused to pay for treatment that would almost certainly have saved his life. Why? Because the insurance company contended that the firefighter had not gotten his illness on the job . . . even though it was a condition that is very frequently job related. He put his own life on the line every shift . . . and died because some beancounter didn't want to pay the bill.<BR/><BR/>So how do you like THEM apples? <BR/><BR/>As for "3rd world drainage" of health care professionals, yours truly NEVER said that nationalized health care would solve that one. Indeed, health care system in BOTH the UK and US would collapse without constant infusion of doctors and nurses from the Third World.Sea Shanty Irishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02962821593752274830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-29809479313789395742007-10-12T23:39:00.000+01:002007-10-12T23:39:00.000+01:00Again on Newnight tonight nothing about this. It w...Again on Newnight tonight nothing about this. It was all about the polls that show that Brown is the same or worse than Blair on spin or the manipulation of the truth. <BR/><BR/>There is a cover up on behalf of the BBC. It does not want to upset Labour to much does it.<BR/><BR/>Downing St has altered the the footage of PMQs as well. It started like this in Nazi Germany. We have a big problem in Brown.Johnny Norfolkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16900659617233793880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-19590120661717627932007-10-12T23:19:00.000+01:002007-10-12T23:19:00.000+01:00Douglas 'Hurd'....ouchDouglas 'Hurd'....ouchNewmaniahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11922161971821380803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-90874917788272515542007-10-12T23:17:00.000+01:002007-10-12T23:17:00.000+01:00Its just Blair all over again. We know we still ha...Its just Blair all over again. We know we still have a rolling news management team instead of a government. Why do we not draw the obvious conclusion, noone is minding the shop.<BR/><BR/>Take the simplification of the right of parents to challenge the selective status of Grammar schools. How much time was spent on that when in the last ten years there is one solitary example of parents trying to challenge selective status anyway. A dig at Cameron pure and simple. How much time was spent on a budget that hid its taxes( now being spotted) and on hiding the dropped academy scheme . The problem with having to misrepresent everything and spin everything is that it is bound to take up all your governing time .<BR/><BR/>Naturally no-one wants to ensure the NHS works or Tax credits works , or DEFRA works or NHS computers work , or the Police force works or the immigration system works or indeed anything else . Plenty of time is spent keeping PFI borrowing of the books and by the way , a hell of a lot of our money ,£13 billion, loaned to a favoured heartland bank who fell, entirely by their own incompetence .£13 billion !!! The welfare budget for next year is about £95 billion , the whole spend about £650 billion and they are spending this sort of our cash on this tiny little bank. We know why.<BR/><BR/>Douglas Herd pointed this out a while ago on question time when he went through everything the government had done , not on a political basis ,but simply on an ‘aim and delivery’ score card. As he said ,when nothing is ever got right you have to start to suspect there is a structural problem with the administration .<BR/><BR/>He diagnosed an arrogant and politicising attitude to the civil service , an inability to listen to advice and an obsession with deciding the policy and then spinning it come what may. If you want a small but perfectly formed example look no further than the emerging Olympic scandal<BR/><BR/>This is ,in other words, not an isolated tragedy , it is an inevitable result of the culture of bullying and from afar and ignoring warnings . <BR/><BR/><BR/>Blair and Brown should be in the dock for this neglect of duty. It isn`t just Ministerial responsibility; <BR/><BR/><B>its Prime ministerial responsibility.</B>Newmaniahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11922161971821380803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-51793983183865812152007-10-12T23:01:00.000+01:002007-10-12T23:01:00.000+01:00Aardvark - and the "poor sanitation" was Florence ...Aardvark - and the "poor sanitation" was Florence Nightingale's fault? What was she - a civil engineer?<BR/><BR/>I hope the deaths of these people don't get wiped off the news because that is 300 people in psychological and physical misery, and another 30 at Stoke Mandeville. This is such an outrage, it beggars belief.<BR/><BR/>And that 300 was not even nationwide, which would have been heinous enough. It was in one tiny part of the country.<BR/><BR/>Who's the MP? Does anyone know, please?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-17171676585071663732007-10-12T22:50:00.000+01:002007-10-12T22:50:00.000+01:00Trumpeter Lanfried said... "It is worth recording ...Trumpeter Lanfried said... <BR/>"<I>It is worth recording how Florence Nightingale got her results, i.e by haunting the wards at all hours of the day and night, and by sheer bloody-minded determination.</I>"<BR/><BR/>Her hospital had the highest death rate of all the military hospitals in the Crimea due to hospital-contracted infections resulting from poor sanitation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-57758693831688669092007-10-12T22:20:00.000+01:002007-10-12T22:20:00.000+01:00It is worth recording how Florence Nightingale got...It is worth recording how Florence Nightingale got her results, i.e by haunting the wards at all hours of the day and night, and by sheer bloody-minded determination.<BR/><BR/>On one occasion she wanted some truculent Turkish orderlies to empty a urine tub. She stood by the tub for an hour, refusing to move until the job was done. <BR/><BR/>Not for her the excuse that the <BR/>Turkish Army was an independent contractor and she had no power to give their soldiers instructions.<BR/><BR/>How many NHS Chief Executives even venture out on to the wards? And how many of them have the bottle to tell the Government, "Your targets can only be achieved by putting patients's lives at risk, which I am not prepared to do."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-55282203978844527252007-10-12T21:42:00.000+01:002007-10-12T21:42:00.000+01:00Yes, indeed, Newmania. And as MP David Lidington ...Yes, indeed, Newmania. And as MP David Lidington said, 30 died in Stoke Mandeville, and now we have another 300 helpless old people who have died in Maidstone. This is mass murder on an unimaginable scale. And we don't know what mental torture they went through before they died. Old and helpless people are fearful of complaining in case they are treated cruelly by the young and strong.<BR/><BR/>This story alone should bring down Brown. And then, as Judith said above, there's the slaughter of thousands of animals and the consequent suicides of farmers. This is a government of sheer wickedness.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-32463136918556929112007-10-12T21:30:00.000+01:002007-10-12T21:30:00.000+01:00What a superb thread Hatfield Girl - Magnificent ....What a superb thread <BR/><BR/>Hatfield Girl - Magnificent <BR/><BR/>...and many more but for quick right to the chin Johny Norfolk takes the Palm. I have been wondering why this isn`t a bigger story. Are people in shock ? Blair ran an election camapign on the back of one entirely random tragedy ( The Bulger case) .<BR/>Now Brown and Blair are responsible for mass murder and not for the first time . 27 dead in London in the sink estates they have created. Its emotive rhetoric and perhaps a little unfair but the left have flung the same sort of accusatons around with less reason for a long time now.Newmaniahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11922161971821380803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-85399716378350333782007-10-12T21:08:00.000+01:002007-10-12T21:08:00.000+01:00Alfred of Essex makes a good point. At the NHS, i...Alfred of Essex makes a good point. At the NHS, it's been clogs to clogs in three generations, and hospitals in Britain have become, again, within 100 years, places you go and don't leave alive.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-38643365386597861792007-10-12T20:13:00.000+01:002007-10-12T20:13:00.000+01:00Medical negligence on this scale is almost unbelie...Medical negligence on this scale is almost unbelievable! It is the medical hygiene equivalent of 'clogs to clogs in three generations'. Have our medical 'profession' forgotten everything that Florence Nightingale and subsequent generations of nursing pioneers learned the hard way?<BR/><BR/>The Nazis used gas chambers to eliminate people they had no use for, Stalin mass executions, mass deportations and the Gulags, Mao the Cultural Revolution, and Pol Pot the Killing Fields.<BR/><BR/>New Labour allows the sheer incompetence, greed and mendacity of Chief Executives of NHS Trusts and their managerial underlings to cut short the lives of those who have contributed most and longest to this country!<BR/><BR/>We are back to people being frightened of going into hospital for fear of what they might catch and die of. My wife's grandmother feared hospitals for the same reason: hospitals were places you went to die.<BR/><BR/>Have we forgotten everything the last two generations learned?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com