tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post1977268717471029442..comments2024-03-04T17:54:32.559+00:00Comments on Iain Dale's Diary: Having a Child Is NOT a RightIain Dalehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03270146219458384372noreply@blogger.comBlogger62125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-47190651364472976622010-08-18T19:06:21.054+01:002010-08-18T19:06:21.054+01:00For most of the world, having children is straight...For most of the world, having children is straightforward business that takes care of their pension. <br /><br />That is why having kids is a right in the UN charter.<br /><br />In fact, most of the social change that has taken place is that the family no longer has a hold on people because there is a pension now, children no longer are the absolute serfs of their parents, to be traded with other families or put to work, hired out or at home. <br /><br />Which is why we can idly ponder whether people should have the right to have kids/cats/houses/cars/etc they cannot afford to maintain -- we're free to choose, children are a lifestyle item nowadays, not a necessity.Hexe Froschbeinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12105557075293295260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-83808417578495403392010-08-18T18:23:35.911+01:002010-08-18T18:23:35.911+01:00Having kids is not just a personal matter though. ...Having kids is not just a personal matter though. It's about perpetuating the species and all that. <br /><br />The Fertility Rate for the UK is 1.94 children per woman. That’s not enough to replace the population. So we have immigration.<br /><br />However, usually the people that think women shouldn’t have kids unless they can pay for them also tend to be against immigration.<br /><br />What is the solution to this conundrum?<br /><br />You either have to recognise that women's fertility contributes to maintaining the population of the UK (at a level which will be able to afford your pension and healthcare when you stop work) or accept that the working age population needs to be topped up with immigrants.Indyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04383904151475839441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-52417793491258330222010-08-18T13:09:02.170+01:002010-08-18T13:09:02.170+01:00Chris commented: "There are people who genuin...Chris commented: "There are people who genuinely haven't a clue about planning their lives. Things happen around them and they are left bewildered by the demands of running a family"<br /><br />In my experience we're called dads!<br /><br />;)Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09798954949633278383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-5265927395113665122010-08-18T12:48:55.786+01:002010-08-18T12:48:55.786+01:00Iain.. worms ..can of. hahahah
My personal observ...Iain.. worms ..can of. hahahah<br /><br />My personal observations after a couple of brats...I love them really.<br /><br />Best man at my wedding and his wife were saving up to have kids. She died suddenly at 25 with an undiagnosed medical condition.<br />Conclusion. Life is too short.<br /><br />Can you ever "afford" kids. No.<br />Those who are "saving" for them are in some La-La land. What are they expecting a 10% discount. Any money you put aside will be gone in three months and you'll be in the bargain basement section wih the rest of us.<br /><br />@Kiri "A child is a blessing" , I'm not religious but that nails it. It is not a right or a privelige. You can't make it happen. You are not owed it or can claim right to it.<br /><br />@Roger "Having children.. is a freedom and as with all freedoms, it comes with responsibility."<br />Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. ~Mahatma Gandhi<br /><br />@The Purpleline "I believe we should ensure people are checked before they can go ahead and procreate." Been down that path before and it didn't end well. I'm sure there is a German word for it.<br /><br />@Chris. I so sympathise with your wife but could she in all conscience decide who gets the cash.<br /><br />@Matt Lets turn you argument 180 deg's about "What happens to parents unable to afford children." Should we deny them access to freedom and liberty. "We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." Rough men need paying. Can you afford , are you willing to pay , for the safety and liberty of those who comprehend your sensibilities.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05655976948393401423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-62336141434774344922010-08-17T20:26:41.651+01:002010-08-17T20:26:41.651+01:00"Oh dear it appears I have found myself in th..."Oh dear it appears I have found myself in the long awaited 36th series of Life in Mars back in the 1830s."<br /><br />I think you're out by about a century<br /><br />http://art-bin.com/art/omodest.html<br /><br />Tories have never been afraid of "blue skies" thinking in this area.Jimmyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01542633492362670045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-73996584679365863802010-08-17T20:15:08.867+01:002010-08-17T20:15:08.867+01:00Your sort of simple collectivism would be a ratio...Your sort of simple collectivism would be a rationale for Communism never mind Social Democracy Mr. Volatile and some of the arguments against it are these<br /> 1 The duties an individual owes some ill defined group , society cannot be established by your peculiar genius or sheer force ( although they usually are ) but require some consent . I do not consent <br />2 The various attempts to impose collectivism have failed miserably in every conceivable way not least in failing to provide for the poor <br /><br />I think what you say about children starving is indeed real problem . I think the best way to go would be to make welfare far more conditional disincentivising irresponsible choices for the parent harming the child as little as possible .This was part opf the thrust of US welfare reform.<br /><br />Part of the picture however must be a general contempt for those whose inablity to keep their knickers on obliges the rest of us to work even harder looking after the brats they evidently care little for themselvesNewmaniahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11922161971821380803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-34616805264769310922010-08-17T17:11:13.699+01:002010-08-17T17:11:13.699+01:00My better half works for the local PCT working wit...My better half works for the local PCT working with children. She deals with some familys (if they can be called that) who should not be having any children at all from what I hear. She does not go into detail, but 17 year olds with 2 kids and one on the way are not uncommon all with different fathers. Maybe it would be cheaper to offer these girls £2-£3,000 at the age of 14 to have coils implanted and then ensure that they are replaced at regular intervals. If some feel that a coil is wrong for some so young then implants could be used. Stopping these young women from getting pregnent at a cost of a couple of grand every couple of years seems to me to be good use of OUR money.<br /><br />DaedalusDaedalushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13928101550998398087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-43837374074863211882010-08-17T14:07:39.747+01:002010-08-17T14:07:39.747+01:00@Roger Thornhill
What you keep calling "Othe...@Roger Thornhill<br /><br />What you keep calling "Other People's Money" is in fact OUR money - all of our money. It's your money, my money, everyone who lives in this country's money. YOU are other people. <br /><br />No doubt you benefit from some slither of taxation the people you castigate do not. That's how the system works! Give a little, take a little. You benefit from the good that comes from general taxation (taken from you as per your ability to pay, given back to you as the NHS, roads, military, an educated workforce etc.)<br /><br />You - all of us, we - benefit from not letting children - even children of irresponsible parents - go hungry and uneducated. The world does not stop at the end of your tax return.Matt Lodderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11496867958795485619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-29713756483704521342010-08-17T14:05:43.640+01:002010-08-17T14:05:43.640+01:00@The Purpleline who wrote:
"I also do not be...@The Purpleline who wrote:<br /><br />"I also do not believe anyone who has a a disability should be allowed to procreate"<br /><br />and <br /><br />"What is the point in allowing two disabled people mate?"<br /><br />By 'disabled', do you also include those with borderline personality disorder, clinical depression and/or sociopathic tendencies? If so, I assume you have taken steps to remove your peculiar DNA from the gene pool?Intentionally Blankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03308816777751570233noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-46282423421117261852010-08-17T14:03:19.789+01:002010-08-17T14:03:19.789+01:00@Roger Thornhill
I do "put my money where my...@Roger Thornhill<br /><br />I do "put my money where my mouth is". It's called "general taxation", chap.<br /><br />I notice you failed to address the actual question in my comment, so I'll pose it again, to you and to anyone else who supports Mr. Dale's tub-thumbing proclamation that the state should not "automatically" provide child-support to those who need it:<br /><br />"So -- you let the children of the over-fecund (per your own arbitrary definition) to starve? Or what? What happens to children born to parents unable to afford them, in your bold new utopia? Or, conversely, what steps do you propose be taken by the state in advance of conception?"<br /><br />Come on, all. Have the courage of your convictions and say what you really mean.Matt Lodderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11496867958795485619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-40754121949823765302010-08-17T13:10:58.563+01:002010-08-17T13:10:58.563+01:00IIRC Most kids are born into poverty.
Who is resp...IIRC Most kids are born into poverty.<br /><br />Who is responsible?<br /><br />The parent(s) or, and I'll stop there as there is no point going on.<br /><br />All those who think money MUST be spent in that direction set up a private charity, contribute to it and then you can decide how the money is spent.<br /><br /><br />Very very soon that charity will vet claimants and I also suspect that hop-skip-jump it will focus on those falling into poverty, not procreating themselves into it.<br /><br />"The love of Other Peoples' Money is the root of all Evil"Roger Thornhillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03591327286533118901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-89005424068477316372010-08-17T09:57:23.101+01:002010-08-17T09:57:23.101+01:00@ Newmania
Child Poverty? And what about Adult P...@ Newmania<br /><br />Child Poverty? And what about Adult Poverty? Do children have greater rights than adults? If so, why and how?<br /><br />There's a great deal of claptrap in this area of discussion. In a so called civilised society why is it that people feel obliged to have children, rather than have protected (contracepted) sex to their heart's content?<br /><br />It's a matter of choice.Unsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08307116169498533047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-15926329899631477862010-08-17T08:11:13.342+01:002010-08-17T08:11:13.342+01:00Should we take money form people who earned it and...Should we take money form people who earned it and give it to people who do not ? Sounds bad , but should we allow child poverty to continue ?Sounds worse . Child poverty is in fact a rhetorical re-casting of the poverty of its parents and needs based welfare will inevitably encourage the acquisition of needs , like children. <br />The Clintonian drive for more welfare conditionality ,as exemplified in Wisconsin , was accompanied by efforts to stop this cycle . It was understood that children undermined the “responsibility “ argument and once you see the this you notice how every argument for left seems to centre on children . Asylum , relative poverty investment in soviet style crèches and so on.<br /><br />But all this costs and we are now living in a country where the only people replacing themselves are those on income support and immigrants .We are headed for a population of about 70,000,000 largely due to immigration and welfare brats so a radical change has been engineered .<br /><br />Ordinary people are denied the right to children because they cannot afford them , meanwhile they are obliged to pay for other peoples via welfare and depressed wages due to our having solved the unemployment problem in Warsaw <br />If there is such a thing as a right to children then that right has been systematically denied to the hard working the responsible and those most able to love care and nurture that child . For the feckless and cunning it is route to income and a house for life .<br /><br />The inevitable stress that this causes justifies further state prescription and so the ghastly cycle continues , chiefly among the Housing empires of Labour’s inner city stronghold’s.Newmaniahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11922161971821380803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1245133389125467662010-08-17T07:53:58.675+01:002010-08-17T07:53:58.675+01:00With regard to Purpleline's question: What is ...With regard to Purpleline's question: What is the point in allowing two disabled people to mate?<br /><br />One of my University lecturers was blind. His wife was blind. They had three children (all sighted).<br /><br />He was one of the most inspirational people I have met in my life. Every time I start feeling sorry for myself, I think of him and all the obstacles that he had to overcome. <br /><br />I think that answers the question.Charlotte Cordayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02699082712772273159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-30720077612207084292010-08-16T23:20:09.080+01:002010-08-16T23:20:09.080+01:00Off topic ---
but John Prescott on Newsnight i...Off topic --- <br />but John Prescott on Newsnight is giving a good impression of the exploding Mr. Creosote in Monty Pythons 'The meaning of Life'.<br /><br />And in the process giving Simon Hughes a good chance to defend the coalition and presumably alienating millions of LD voters and importantly activists. Do LDs want to join the party of John Prescott.<br /><br />For people with a strong stomach it gives a good view into the mindset of the thick tribal Labourite.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-52930545542997619012010-08-16T21:32:02.583+01:002010-08-16T21:32:02.583+01:00Good lord, you have really set off the peanut gall...Good lord, you have really set off the peanut gallery tonight haven't you Iain.norfolkandchancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04285686982180455825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-84986437045877963062010-08-16T21:08:53.537+01:002010-08-16T21:08:53.537+01:00Agree completely. It is grossly irresponsible to b...Agree completely. It is grossly irresponsible to bring any life into this world without the means to support and provide for that life. Did you know that those of us who refused to take the £250 child trust fund will have an account opened on our behalf by HMRC! FFS! What in the name of God is wrong with this country?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-58598784247812689992010-08-16T20:44:14.888+01:002010-08-16T20:44:14.888+01:00Unfortunately Iain most people in this country are...Unfortunately Iain most people in this country are sensible and don't have children that they are unsure they will beable to provide for. Why do you think the birth rate is so low?Jonathan explains it allhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03318916808517918855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-37085084312396100662010-08-16T20:36:26.987+01:002010-08-16T20:36:26.987+01:00Oh dear it appears I have found myself in the long...Oh dear it appears I have found myself in the long awaited 36th series of Life in Mars back in the 1830s. <br /><br />So of course we should determine public policy on the basis of one extreme example promoted by the tabloids - lets just avoid the actual statistics on what is happening to the average family size. Don't let the fact get in the way of our prejudices. <br /><br />And what Mr Dale do you actually propose to do this massive problem that you perceive? Or do you just want to whip up a little hysteria and throw names at the "intolerant" left? Isn't it just a little vacuous and rabble rousing (and boy have you raised a rabble reading the other comments from assorted reptiles) to identify a problem but then at first suggest no solution? Or are you following the usual technique of most totalitarians? So what do you think should be done? Even Comrade Stalin had some ideas as to how planning should be enforced didn't he.<br /><br />Any student of Victorian history will of course find little new here whatsoever.tory boys never grow uphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11172736984147732661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-90697636034855071072010-08-16T20:30:31.533+01:002010-08-16T20:30:31.533+01:00I may not be as literate as some of the posters on...I may not be as literate as some of the posters on here. But one thing I do have is life experiences.<br /><br />The chavs as they are known will continue to pop out children for the social benefits and housing points. I know - personally- one chav, who complains that her 6th child does not get her any more benefits, she collects approx £900 per week, taking acunt of all her allowances,the 4 yes I did get that right fathers wont work because she will want their wages for child support so we in just this one case have 4 lazy scumbags and one mother who cost all tax payers a fortune. People please wake up the feckless scum are swallowing your taxes they dont give a damn, They just breed with anyone. Get a life go mingle with them wake up.<br />Anyway rant over.<br /><br />Ohh yes, please sterilise them or this country will not be fit for my grandkids.justacountryfellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13138509873853269502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-24615767784893619542010-08-16T20:26:25.103+01:002010-08-16T20:26:25.103+01:00Well, perhaps a tad more qualified than most of yo...Well, perhaps a tad more qualified than most of you to comment;I'm from a family of ten siblings,born between 1951 & 1971. On my mother's side of the family there were eight children in her family, on my dad's seven in his.<br /><br />And before anyone asks, I am a left of centre libertarian by most standards.So please don't trot out the old saw about all left wing thinkers here!<br /><br />BUT my grandparents, on both sides WORKED to raise their families, good solid British working class stock who beleived in family ethics & not relying on the state. My mother & father only took family allowance for us, any other bills they paid out of their own pockets. Father would start work at 630 & finish at 11pm most days,to make sure we had enough to eat.Mother ran the home & worked part time.<br /><br />We were never left to our own devices, we were taught what is right & wrong & taught that you take the consequences of your actions. They set a good example.<br /><br />We didn't have some of the luxuries which people expect as standard these days. They didn't expect them by right, they had kids to raise. I wore hand me downs for years. Nothing wrong with that.<br /><br />My parents took their responsibility seriously.Sadly not everyone does. Tory voting families as well, at the end of my street is a family where they produced nine siblings on benefits, most have now left home & are producing families of their own, so she moved her mother in to get her benefits after leaving the old lady in a home for years! <br /><br />I don't mind supporting those who genuinely need support, but to endlessly pop out sprogs when you cannot support them yourself is not a left wing or right wing issue, just plain bloody irresponsible.The Prof.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01650336817161583685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-26823596163560545302010-08-16T19:26:54.357+01:002010-08-16T19:26:54.357+01:00I disagree with some of the wording, however there...I disagree with some of the wording, however there is a part of a Chris Rock scetch which rings very true about "the lazy poor" (not "the left", "Lazy Poor" folks)and their attitude to bringing up children. Rock describes a woman who expected praise or gratitude for doing what she is supposed to do anyway. There are so many people in the "Lazy Poor" who believe that they should be rewarded for bringing up children, as if having the gift of bringing up a child is not reward in itself.<br /><br />By the way Killiemalletgodsortthemout, David Cairns (i think) suggested something similar. Isn't he, um, a New Labour MP?Allanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13574173214924437278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-27449739910192683152010-08-16T18:58:33.826+01:002010-08-16T18:58:33.826+01:00Absolutely spot on Iain, and a sentiment with whic...Absolutely spot on Iain, and a sentiment with which a huge number of us agree, but aren't allowed to say so. The biggest environmental crisis facing the planet is population growth, but instead we have to obsess about CO2 emissions because that's much less challenging to the lazy cultural assumptions which most people operate by. And the thing which mosts disgusts me is money which could be spent on adoption for the kids that most need it going on IVF for people whose selfish genes demand a biological child, rather than a child who already exists and needs a parent. As for the idiocy of tackling child poverty by giving money to people who can't afford to have chidren, who will then spawn yet more, don't get me started...Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05003394281182105824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-33326018409594767952010-08-16T18:41:44.622+01:002010-08-16T18:41:44.622+01:00Why do we pay people 'Child Benefits to have c...Why do we pay people 'Child Benefits to have children?<br /><br />It is stupid. This should be gone and put in the Labour dustbin of history.<br /><br />Shaun<br /><br />What is the point in allowing two disabled people mate? or pay for them to mate with prostitutes. Surely that is just sensible politics nothing to do with eugenics.The Purplelinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13824474829595685623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-79605014466216336642010-08-16T18:03:18.297+01:002010-08-16T18:03:18.297+01:00Although there are some people milking the system ...Although there are some people milking the system there will be some who desperately need a safety net.<br /><br />What we need is a change in attitude. Perhaps if child benefit was only paid for up to two children born from 10 months time onwards (but this limitation would not be applied retrospectively to existing children) then gradually the cost of state support would reduce.<br /><br />Perhaps if state support for rent only allowed for 3 bedrooms in future.... that would help too.<br /><br />People can still have as many children as they want - it's just that we don't pay for them. If someone can't support their family then the children will have to be farmed out to relatives or taken into care and adopted.DiscoveredJoyshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05300239909689336895noreply@blogger.com