tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post1861892977322854242..comments2024-03-04T17:54:32.559+00:00Comments on Iain Dale's Diary: A Referendum Challenge To My ReadersIain Dalehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03270146219458384372noreply@blogger.comBlogger115125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-40402404683036005672009-11-06T18:07:42.789+00:002009-11-06T18:07:42.789+00:00Iain, you are being incredibly naive. Of course Ca...Iain, you are being incredibly naive. Of course Cameron did not expressly promise a referendum on a post ratification treaty. However, equally, he did not rule one out. If, as he now says, you cannot have a referendum on a ratified treaty as a matter of logic and principle, then why was he not honest enough to say just that before now? Why not make it crystal clear that his promise only extended to a pre ratification referendum? You know damn well why. <br /><br />He wanted to appear and sound tough on Europe to appease the Eurosceptics without in fact promising anything. The fact that anyone is surprised by this amazed me though. This man is and always has been an arch politician. <br /><br />An honest politician would have said two years ago "My referendum pledge relates only to an unratified treaty. You cannot logically have a referendum once the treaty has been ratified by all member states". Clear, straightforward and true. But he did not because (rightly it seems) he took the public for fools. <br /><br />And, yes, we all know that Brown reneged on a referendum too but is that what it has come too? Is that the Cameron benchmark for honesty? Cameron's sophistry is no less ignoble than Brown's argument that they only offered a referendum on the Constitution not the Treaty.p smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04412693505325590969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-13702195848941883752009-11-06T15:50:05.948+00:002009-11-06T15:50:05.948+00:00A clever swerve, Iain. Get them bogged down in th...A clever swerve, Iain. Get them bogged down in the minutiae of textual analysis, rather than the more telling practical and principled observations that have been made. Your evident discomfort does you credit, but I don't doubt the same could have been said of various New Labour figures in the early days of The Project.IanWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14802289720095323373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-9175938561507843822009-11-06T09:48:30.159+00:002009-11-06T09:48:30.159+00:00OK we have a significant number of people who want...OK we have a significant number of people who want an In or Out Referendum. That is a perfectly sensible position which would have the support of the Lib-Dems and UKIP who would campaign on opposite sides. <br /><br />Labour, CBI, TUC, Irish, Wesh and Northern Ireland parties would all campaign to stay in. <br /><br />Official Tory policy now is to be in.<br /><br />What would Conservative Party do after calling the refferedum.<br /><br />Say the issue is contentious and we are giving the people their say but we think we should stay in, or stay neutral while individual MP's campaign on both sides.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05270416768188186705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-18740362644343630142009-11-06T09:39:20.985+00:002009-11-06T09:39:20.985+00:00@UKIPwebmaster
Some one who was an UKIP MEP may fa...@UKIPwebmaster<br />Some one who was an UKIP MEP may face criminal charges said the Timesonline yesterday. Wonderful! Any comment from Farrage the talkative, he seems quiet these days!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-79644700144245169732009-11-06T09:19:49.312+00:002009-11-06T09:19:49.312+00:00Ian you are right, a Referendum to stop ratificati...Ian you are right, a Referendum to stop ratification of a Treaty is one thing a referendum to allow people to let off steam by saying NO!! may make people feel better but I have never heard a sensible answer to the question of and what happens next?<br /><br />I have no problem with those arguing for an IN or OUT Referendum whether UKIP or Lib-Dem but that was not and never has been Cameron's position. <br /><br />Maybe it should be to lance this long running boil. But the idea that we can stay in but somehow turn the EU back to a 1970's trade co-operation area is a pipe-dream. <br /><br />Those who argue that the 1974 Referendum was after we had joined the answer was yes and if the answer had gone the other way we would have left. If we reject the rules of the EU as constituted from 1st December, we can leave or we can argue with the others to make changes if the others agree, we can not magically make the others unratify!Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05270416768188186705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-44897827586922161912009-11-06T00:48:41.476+00:002009-11-06T00:48:41.476+00:00@ titus-aduxas...
Why the hell would I want to co...@ titus-aduxas...<br /><br />Why the hell would I want to consult the current government? They are slavishly pro-EU, useless, traitorous tosspots. Personally I'd like to line them all up against the nearest wall and machine-gun them. Twice. After torturing them.<br /><br />No. Cameron didn't <i>specifically</i> promise a referendum on our relationship with the EU. It's merely what your average non hair-splitting, non apologist, non party fanboy would have expected from his "cast-iron guarantee".<br /><br />Party before country is what's expected from the socialist tribal dimwits.<br /><br />Seriously, wtf is the matter with some of you?Roghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01963368095679996116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-87424027510478949172009-11-06T00:04:55.429+00:002009-11-06T00:04:55.429+00:00This is like the Clinton paradox. Did he inhale or...This is like the Clinton paradox. Did he inhale or did he have intercourse?ukipwebmasterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12240335641832778726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-24202804435987514352009-11-06T00:01:08.276+00:002009-11-06T00:01:08.276+00:00Some troll said: "But tens of thousands of ...Some troll said: "But tens of thousands of us won't be voting Tory now."<br /><br />So you wanted an 'in or out' referendum and now you can't have it. Sorry but that's realpolitik for you. So who will you be voting for? UKIP or BNP? What will that achieve? Neither of them can win an election, but they can certainly lose one. If enough of you jump ship we may end up with another 5 years of Brown, followed by Moribund and Balls. In which case get ready for 50% basic rate income tax , the introduction of Sharia law and compulsory CRB checks before you can pick your own kids up from school. So lets be grown up about this. DC didn't ratify Lisbon, but the fact is it has been ratified. That is the pond he needs to swim in, much as he,you or I might wish it otherwise. Spitting your dummy out won't change that.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11777593523202505649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-20371377575902770402009-11-05T23:20:47.497+00:002009-11-05T23:20:47.497+00:00Like Call Me Dave I have also changed my position ...Like Call Me Dave I have also changed my position on the EUSSR. I now want a referendum as to whether we stay in or like Switzerland and Norway, merely have economic ties with the great European Socialist political pipe dream.Jabba the Cathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08378736389976858775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-86975222326903942192009-11-05T20:03:11.976+00:002009-11-05T20:03:11.976+00:00One reason for having a referendum is to demonstra...One reason for having a referendum is to demonstrate, once and for all, that the EU is anti-democratic, and has been imposed on people by dictat against their wishes. That is a politically powerful message. The EU has no mandate here. They need to have their noses rubbed in that fact; that they have no more legitimacy than any other of the world's despots.<br /><br />But this whole argument is akin to saying that there is no point in having an election, because Labour have just changed the law so that they are in government forever. What would be the point in an election, if its conclusion must legally be ignored?<br /><br />And if Cameron (and others) had said he had made an error in giving a guarantee without excluding the post-ratification case, that would be acceptable, although far from ideal. But to say that <i>he never said it</i> is simply spin.<br /><br />What is the point in replacing the disaster that is Brown/Labour if what we replace it with is just as bad? Just as dishonest and unprincipled, as soon as it becomes expedient?<br /><br />And you never know, if you hold the referendum, people might just vote "Yes". Democracy might not be so terrible for you after all.Winston Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14639636736681178463noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-21514113091212953282009-11-05T19:38:04.263+00:002009-11-05T19:38:04.263+00:00Cameron's speech on 26 May 2009, under the tit...Cameron's speech on 26 May 2009, under the title: "Fixing Broken Politics":<br /><br />"A progressive reform agenda demands that we redistribute power from the EU to Britain and from judges to the people." <br /><br />He went on:<br /><br />"We will therefore hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, pass a law requiring a referendum to approve any further transfers of power to the EU, negotiate the return of powers, and require far more detailed scrutiny in Parliament of EU legislation, regulation and spending."Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02561483930556493363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-46440268499336619472009-11-05T18:53:27.571+00:002009-11-05T18:53:27.571+00:00Here's a further question on a challenge set a...Here's a further question on a challenge set a while ago.<br /><br />How's your sponsored diet coming on? ;-)Seanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03234085314662011091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-66673045625719402162009-11-05T18:29:29.946+00:002009-11-05T18:29:29.946+00:00Devious, Iain. A most devious, slippery post.
No ...Devious, Iain. A most devious, slippery post.<br /><br />No wonder you want to become an MP. You'd fit in perfectly.The Grim Reaperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05543130733645367498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-2561048703401488892009-11-05T18:15:55.937+00:002009-11-05T18:15:55.937+00:00@Halsall
It is all very well quoting Churchill, bu...@Halsall<br />It is all very well quoting Churchill, but the US of Europe he aspired surely is not where People have no say in how EU has to be run- structured and moves forward, where democratic deficit is the order of the day,where the states'can be overiddenn by appointed commissioners and other unelected officials. It is a bit too convenient for Labourites to quote Churchill.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-7263265451007659332009-11-05T18:04:45.478+00:002009-11-05T18:04:45.478+00:00Iain - if the last sentence was intended as a cave...Iain - if the last sentence was intended as a caveat or qualification, why didn't Dave say so explicitly, something along the lines of "We will have a referendum unless the treaty has already been ratified." The fact is he chose not to offer such a caveat, so his "cast iron guarantee" should be taken at face value.Tom Harrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07558668466362429378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-37170601152301543832009-11-05T18:03:42.350+00:002009-11-05T18:03:42.350+00:00If you think the actual words are more important t...If you think the actual words are more important than the perception of what the words are, then you are more New Labour than Tory and less of an honest politician than you like to portray yourself.Houdinihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02299827686189026014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-37660291420877864862009-11-05T17:37:37.183+00:002009-11-05T17:37:37.183+00:00DO YOU STILL WANT A REFERENDUM?
Sign this Petitio...DO YOU STILL WANT A REFERENDUM?<br /><br />Sign this Petition asking Cameron for one <br /><br />http://www.gopetition.co.uk/petitions/referendum-on-repatriation-of-powers-from-the-eu-to-westminster/signatures.htmlAlexander Tuhsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02371513355345033253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-52161514419385872302009-11-05T17:32:28.129+00:002009-11-05T17:32:28.129+00:00That contortion must have hurt terribly. You may ...That contortion must have hurt terribly. You may be able to prove that Cameron never promised a referendum but we still need one.Bob le flaneurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14704408915839295534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-78272267361646653742009-11-05T17:20:35.158+00:002009-11-05T17:20:35.158+00:00I've followed this exchange, and it's now ...I've followed this exchange, and it's now getting v-e-r-y repetitive and v-e-r-y boring.<br /><br />So, to conclude on my part:<br /><br />1. There are many angry people out there. I think they're wrong; but then, as a former anti, I came round to being ambivalent over Europe in 1975. Those who say that was a long while ago are, as my eyesight, hearing and hair testify, quite correct. That doesn't alter how the debate then was remarkably similar to now: we antis were acutely aware and warned then:<br /><i>Fashion it thus; that what he is, augmented,<br />Would run to these and these extremities:<br />And therefore think him as a serpent's egg<br />Which, hatch'd, would, as his kind, grow mischievous,<br />And kill him in the shell.</i><br /><br />The great British public voted two-to-one against our warnings. 'Nuff said.<br /><br />Even so, those who argue still from a hard-line anti- perspective are not all "trolls". To describe them thus implies one does not comprehend what "trolling" involves (and, believe me, I've done my bit.) Nor are they exclusively UKIPpers.<br /><br />2. The present Government, for all its faults, is not uniquely the guilty party. Everything that has occurred is a natural consequence of:<br /><br />(a) what we re-signed up for in 1975 (by which time the ERM, proposed in 1970, created in 1972, was already in place);<br /><br />(b) the recognition that we couldn't continue to dump acid rain on Scandinavia, nor hoover the seas of fish;<br /><br />(c) the establishment of democratic regimes, first in Iberia, Greece, and then in Eastern Europe: all of which needed to be supported, sustained -- and kept democratic; and so implied European-wide "rights" and obligations.<br /><br />(d) the Single European Act of 1986: now, remind me who flushed the Downing Street loo then ...<br /><br />(e) Maastricht in 1992, creating the EU, with the UK giving assurances on currency, foreign and security policy, justice and internal affairs; again, remind me who signed up for that one ...<br /><br />So, by the time of the present Government, with the EU at 25 (and then at 27) members, consolidation was overdue. In the immediate future the entry of Croatia and FYR Macedonia will need to be settled. My guess is that will happen in the life-time of the next Parliament; but <i>not</i> involve a Referendum, come what may. I guess, too, that any UK Government will make cooing noises about Turkish entry; but not be too energetic in pressing it.<br /><br />Quite frankly, what we've got there is, on balance, better than the alternatives. Those who sweat buckets over "ever-closer union" might care to look back beyond the last three decades or so, when ever-wider disunion was the only game in town.<br /><br />3. When Cameron gave his "cast-iron" promise, he was in a corner (not far off the electoral ropes), was set on wooing Murdoch, and -- I suggest unwisely -- went a bit further than second-thoughts might have suggested. In doing so, he was either:<br /><br />(a) presuming he would not have to deliver. In which case he was being casuistical and equivocating: not unusual in a politician;<br />or<br />(b) assuming that the Irish, the Poles, the Czechs or A.N.Other would already have rubbished Lisbon. In which case he was being calculating.<br /><br />Neither implies a cuddly, endearing personality: either is the norm in the trade, however. It transcends human understanding that he would have wanted to be in the position of a newly-elected UK Government being the sole wrecker. Or that he expected the natural support of the Tory Party, in the City and business, would countenance leaving the EU -- especially when "Exit" is clearly sign-posted, for the first time, in Lisbon. That is the mark of his weakness at the time the "cast-iron" promise was put together, and his present moment of apparent self-contradiction.Malcolm Redfellowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11907427518823910875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-64723904687139833372009-11-05T16:59:47.781+00:002009-11-05T16:59:47.781+00:00Iain, I'm a long-time reader/lurker here. I p...Iain, I'm a long-time reader/lurker here. I phoned in to your online radio show TWICE. I'm not one of your awkward squad. I'm not a labour supporter. I'm the sort of friend you ought to listen to carefully, if not follow slavishly.<br /><br />However, you are insulting both my intelligence and yours.<br /><br />Only if you view a post-ratification referendum as an impossibility does this make a difference. It opens a weasel-sized loop-hole for a dishonest "politician" (scare quotes deliberate).<br /><br />Continue in this vain, and I will begin referring to you as the Tory Derek Draper and Cameron as the heir to Bliar.<br /><br />Grow up.Dead Dog Bouncehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11820417398024917317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-75866867412942379422009-11-05T16:46:49.125+00:002009-11-05T16:46:49.125+00:00How about this from Hague:
“This is a democratic ...How about this from Hague:<br /><br />“This is a democratic country whose people were promised a referendum. We will always make time for the people to have their say.”<br /><br />cited by Brogan @ http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/benedictbrogan/100015513/no-referendum-on-the-lisbon-treaty-and-even-repatriation-is-in-doubt/The Huntsmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02341238289938769637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-80391341098886996002009-11-05T16:03:00.438+00:002009-11-05T16:03:00.438+00:00Fair enough Iain, but given the general mood of di...Fair enough Iain, but given the general mood of discontent with lying, spinning, disingenuous politicians, it would have been better for Dave to have had the balls to say – ok then, let’s have a referendum on EU membership – full stop! I think there is a large block of the populous who would rather we give up this eye wateringly expensive hobby altogether!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-63933806106529733532009-11-05T16:02:24.652+00:002009-11-05T16:02:24.652+00:00Fair enough Iain, but given the general mood of di...Fair enough Iain, but given the general mood of discontent with lying, spinning, disingenuous politicians, it would have been better for Dave to have had the balls to say – ok then, let’s have a referendum on EU membership – full stop! I think there is a large block of the populous who would rather we give up this eye wateringly expensive hobby altogether!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-90638621783650982192009-11-05T15:52:48.453+00:002009-11-05T15:52:48.453+00:00"We must build a kind of United States of Eur..."We must build a kind of United States of Europe. In this way only will hundreds of millions of toilers be able to regain the simple joys and hopes which make life worth living. The process is simple. All that is needed is the resolve of hundreds of millions of men and women to do right instead of wrong and to gain as their reward blessing instead of cursing."<br />Winston Churchill - http://www.europa-web.de/europa/02wwswww/202histo/churchil.htmPaul Halsallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01602075031268155220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-60735621687728395182009-11-05T15:37:43.517+00:002009-11-05T15:37:43.517+00:00"Rog said...
"No treaty should be ratifi..."Rog said...<br />"No treaty should be ratified without consulting the British people in a referendum."<br /><br />The treaty has been ratified.<br />We haven't been consulted.<br />We require a referendum"<br /><br />Talk to the current Govt. They had the opportunity to give you one, before signing the treaty and lobbying the others to sign and ratify it.<br />It is the responsibility of this Govt that the treaty has been ratified, now grow up and start bleating at Brown and his cronies.<br /><br />" - NOT on Lisbon any more"<br />Why not, everyone else thinks it will change something. If you want any referendum, talk to the current Govt.<br /><br />"but on our future relationship with the EU."<br />That is a referendum that no-one has promised. You want one, talk to Gorgon Brown and his cronies, see where that gets you<br /><br />"Come on Iain, there was nothing to prevent Cameron giving us such a referendum, and you know it."<br />Are you saying that Cameron promised a referendum on membership of the EU?<br /><br />"You are twisting in knots trying to defend the indefensible."<br /><br />I think you're talking out of the place the sun don't shine.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com