tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post1743685722716119091..comments2024-03-04T17:54:32.559+00:00Comments on Iain Dale's Diary: Was David Davis Right?Iain Dalehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03270146219458384372noreply@blogger.comBlogger105125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-33946552337654919092009-07-12T12:44:46.317+01:002009-07-12T12:44:46.317+01:00A nit pick Simon because I agree with your sentime...A nit pick Simon because I agree with your sentiments but Obama is of the Luo tribe & Mau Mau was an exclusively Kikuyu matter.neil craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09157898238945726349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-31757595852602959332009-07-12T11:47:46.827+01:002009-07-12T11:47:46.827+01:00Sandy Jamieson (July 08, 2009 11:40 PM) refers to ...Sandy Jamieson (July 08, 2009 11:40 PM) refers to Enoch Powell's speech about the treatment of Mau Mau prisoners.<br /><br />Now we have a president of the USA whose own relatives were Mau Mau prisoners, and his view of Britain is coloured accordingly.<br /><br />If you abandon civilised values to defend civilised values, you have surrendered at the outset, and what you did will come back to haunt you. <br /><br />The corruption of this country by the Blair and Brown ministries taints us all. It is no use skulking in a corner and muttering "'snot me, guv" or "not in my name" - we have to come out in the open and reject what has been done.<br /><br />And so, lacking DD's moral fibre, I sign off pseudonomously ... not .Simon toonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-26081750591274629852009-07-10T09:55:04.393+01:002009-07-10T09:55:04.393+01:00Never let the facts get in the way of a Labour tro...Never let the facts get in the way of a Labour troller's rant eh Jimmy.<br /><br />Anybody interested in facts would have noticed that nobody was more opposed to ID cards than David Davis. Don't remember any Labour or LibDim MP putting their job on the line over the issue.neil craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09157898238945726349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-43877504847427392532009-07-10T08:28:24.635+01:002009-07-10T08:28:24.635+01:00Micheal
I'm a quite hard core Libertarian.
I&...Micheal<br />I'm a quite hard core Libertarian.<br /><br />I'm Pro Death Penelty and somewhere in between on torture.<br />There isnt any conflict between the issues.<br /><br />"The only problem with torturing anyone is that they will, eventually, tell you what you want to hear. Everyone breaks no matter if well trained or not. So why use torture?"<br /><br />People use torture because it works, simple as.<br />A Taliban Spy arrested after a firefight in Afghanistan DOES NOT KNOW what the person chopping bits off him wants him to say. How could he they've never met?<br />He also does not know what the people who were captured yesterday have already said, and what the people who will be captured tomorrow have said.<br />Its just like being questioned by the police, they listen to what is said, compare iot to what they know, and instead of shouting at you when you lie, water board you.<br /><br />Or are you going to argue that police questioning people is a waste of time too?DominicJnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-40130500866361197152009-07-10T07:07:45.634+01:002009-07-10T07:07:45.634+01:00Jimmy, are you out of your tiny mind? Where on ea...Jimmy, are you out of your tiny mind? Where on earth did you get that?Lady Finchleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03695379463537122656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-57637059603493984032009-07-10T04:57:38.474+01:002009-07-10T04:57:38.474+01:00I think David Davis was right because:
1. The end ...I think David Davis was right because:<br />1. The end doesn't justify the means.<br />2. What if this treatment was meted out to an innocent man or woman? You or a member of your family? And don't say it couldn't happen.<br />3. The UK Govt's 'high moral ground' on rendition & torture is totally hypocritical & needs to be exposed as such.<br />4. Torture merely creates martyrs, it doesn't prevent terrorism.<br />5. Research has shown that frequently someone being tortured will tell the toturer what he wants to hear - which may be very far from the truth.<br />6. Those who live by the sword frequently die by the sword.Biffonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-5902455431385980642009-07-10T01:08:57.864+01:002009-07-10T01:08:57.864+01:00Of course the same people who advocate thumbscrews...Of course the same people who advocate thumbscrews for the suspiciously swarthy are the same people who pretend to regard id cards as an intolerable attack on civil liberties. <br /><br />Let's not forget that the tories' new liberal conscience also believes in putting convicted criminals to death. I wouldn't get too carried away.Jimmyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01542633492362670045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-29293460345066534772009-07-09T23:47:17.638+01:002009-07-09T23:47:17.638+01:00Iain,
As you are a tory blogger on a nationally ...Iain, <br /><br />As you are a tory blogger on a nationally small scale I would like to see a statistic for the replies to an article like this, as well as more general party-wide surveys that compare the quantity of libertarian tories against those of a more intolerant brand. How many hang-'ems are there versus the bleeding hearts amongst the tory benches, constituencies and the general public.<br /><br />If a poll has been taken I would like to know.<br /><br />Also, do you think the next serious debate in the conservatives is between libertarians and hard-liners? It appears to me that this division has lost prominence amongst the many new dividing lines that Gordon has drawn.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15169774569687060703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-77751860376080462872009-07-09T19:05:23.224+01:002009-07-09T19:05:23.224+01:00Anon said:
This stance is not being soft on terro...Anon said:<br /><br />This stance is not being soft on terrorism, but rather is upholding the values we claim to wish to impart to others.<br /><br />July 09, 2009 4:57 PM<br /><br />Ah yes, values. Wonderful things if you can afford them. Maybe you'd like to give a reading on values at the relatives service after the next terrorist outrage....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-24085157189092054792009-07-09T17:45:30.038+01:002009-07-09T17:45:30.038+01:00Hey: "... the security services shoudl have b...Hey: "... the security services shoudl have been targeting US citizens (mostly in Boston) and politicians like Sen. Ted Kennedy and Rep. Pete King."<br /><br />Don't you think the US might have retaliated?SJBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-30253373655956684222009-07-09T16:57:11.133+01:002009-07-09T16:57:11.133+01:00If we opposse terrorism, we cannot terrorise! If, ...If we opposse terrorism, we cannot terrorise! If, by our behaviour, we act in a way which mirrors the actions of those we claim to oppose, then we are hypocrites and deserve what we get.<br /><br />To that end, we should not torture anyone, and we shouldn't allow information imparted througfh torture to be used in court.<br /><br />This stance is not being soft on terrorism, but rather is upholding the values we claim to wish to impart to others.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-64921396908351494542009-07-09T15:10:25.228+01:002009-07-09T15:10:25.228+01:00I love the comments "well we didn't do th...I love the comments "well we didn't do this against the Provos". That is why the Provos won and are the government of Northern Ireland.<br /><br />Every member of Sinn Fein and the IRA should have been taken out. Everyone funding them should have been taken out. Yes, the security services shoudl have been targeting US citizens (mostly in Boston) and politicians like Sen. Ted Kennedy and Rep. Pete King. <br /><br />They're going to hate you anyways and claim that you were responsible for innumerable atrocities, so might as well get things done. Sri Lanka showed how to WIN against terrorists - ferocious will to win and acceptance that every method is on the table. Amnesty screams, but Amnesty screams whenever a leftist stubs his toe so who gives a f***. <br /><br />"But this makes us as bad as them!" We're not trying to win a freaking beauty contest, love. We're trying to survive. People will hate us no matter what we do, trying to win others approval is futile (has no one read Clausewitz or Machiavelli?) This is the same bollocks that was used by the fellow travellers to enable communism to thrive despite their lacking nuclear weapons in '45. If the US & UK had nuked Moscow and other vital targets, we would have saved more than 100M people. How many millions are going to die for the sensibilities of traitors this time?Heyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08333291654356970407noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-42496930252344363242009-07-09T14:59:28.735+01:002009-07-09T14:59:28.735+01:00The only problem with torturing anyone is that the...The only problem with torturing anyone is that they will, eventually, tell you what you want to hear. Everyone breaks no matter if well trained or not. So why use torture? Apart from some kind of sadistic pleasure that the torturer may receive, ultimately torture is useless. I thought the days of "he fell down the stairs" and "he slipped on a bar of soap" were long gone.Dr Evilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00176521760477086914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-87728791713914258052009-07-09T14:57:53.577+01:002009-07-09T14:57:53.577+01:00They profess to be a single entity out to annihila...They profess to be a single entity out to annihilate the West. Any attempt to dismiss that is simple racism, believing that the other is incapable of rational thought and intent, that they are merely the playthings of Western prejudices. <br /><br />Given that they represent a single umma and are conducting a genocidal war out of uniform, they are beyond all protections of law and convention. Any and all retaliatory measures may be made against any part of the whole (including France, which must be viewed as part of it given the subservient attitude of its government and the population of its capital). <br /><br />I'd much rather that the US and UK were doing these things at home. String them up and get out the jumper cables - we're far more interested in real information and torturing actual threats, rather than the terrorist front of the ISI or Syrian Intelligence who are simply trying to get useful idiots off their backs by grabbing someone off the street and making them confess. They should be attacked for passive rendition - but only because of cowardice and dereliction of duty. We can't trust Pakistan or any other muslim country in our efforts against jihadism. Every muslim country is riddled with jihadists - Saudi lets them hold telethons even though their end goal is stringing up every Al Saud, just so that they get targeted last. <br /><br />Since these people are unlawful, genocidal combatants, there's no need for trials or anything. Geneva Convention gives us the ability to shoot them out of hand, so a little slap and tickle beforehand is no real concern.<br /><br />David Davis should be focusing on dangers at home from a government that coddles terrorists and their advocates while suppressing decent citizens, instead of attempting to hobble the few organizations still trying to defend the realm. MI5 and MI6 should be let loose to do unto others before they do unto us. Grab suspects from Bradford and mosques, see major infrastructure around the umma mysteriously explode, off fundraisers and compromised elements of security forces, nuke Paris...<br /><br />The UK needs to find a spine again and come to grips with the threat it faces. Look at what was done to face down the Sepoy Mutiny and bring back some of that traditional British excellence.Heyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08333291654356970407noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-41269799900995350792009-07-09T13:40:09.009+01:002009-07-09T13:40:09.009+01:00Anon. July 09, 2009 12:26 PM
"Finally, it is...Anon. July 09, 2009 12:26 PM<br /><br />"Finally, it is interesting that posters who are anti-torture and pro-liberty have, on occasion, resorted to foul language and bizarre references to Jack Bauer and, stranger still, masturbation. Surely damaging to their arguments, which would be better served by more careful analysis and fewer ad hominem attacks."<br /><br />Reply:<br /><br />Happens all the time, it's something the biscuit allows as they are mostly his mates.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-53990741137294610702009-07-09T13:31:22.679+01:002009-07-09T13:31:22.679+01:00Where else BUT Parliamentary privilege should Davi...Where else BUT Parliamentary privilege should David Davis air and address serious, humane concerns - he has the courage of his convictions in what's fast becoming Stasi Britain. Mr Bercow will be delighted with David Davis's integrity. <br /><br />What an unholy mess 12 years of Nulabor has wrecked upon mankind with their 'hidden agendas', spinning, manipulative method of rule and oppression.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-25991903512598763882009-07-09T13:30:56.160+01:002009-07-09T13:30:56.160+01:00Matt said...
"Is it OK for a number of innoc...Matt said... <br />"Is it OK for a number of innocents to be tortured to get the "right" man - if so can one of you hardliners tell me how many is enough, and will you volunteer to be the first?"<br /><br />Reply:<br />Thing is Matty dear, the terrorist in question was not an innocent as his conviction and subsequent life sentence show.<br /><br />Mat said:<br />"Secondly, the senior FBI interrogator in Iraq, ali soufan, found out that many of the foreign fighters went there not to support Al-Qaida but to fight against the torture in Abu Ghraib, proving that torture created many of the problems there, and cost US lives <br />to boot."<br /><br />Reply: <br /><br />What bollocks! Firstly we aren't talking about a prison in Iraq and secondly the majority of foreign fighters were in and around Iraq long before the revelations about US atrosities at Abu Ghraib came to light.<br /><br />Mat ended with:<br />Be careful what you wish for, it may bite you in th ar**!<br /><br />Reply:<br /><br />You people keep banging on as if the UK security services are grabbing ordinary Joe's off the street and sending them to various countries to be tortured. This isn't the case and you damned well know it. <br />Terrorists do not have any honour, they do not subject their victims to the "due processes" of law, they have no moral values. <br /><br />They are murdering, butchering bastards. (This is a point worth remembering when crying about what may or may not have happened to one of them in another country).<br /><br />Therefore, i find it difficult to understand why ANYONE would want to defend their rights. As far as i'm concerned they gave up their human rights the minute they either pulled the trigger, detonated a bomb or helped facilitate an act which resulted in innocent people being killed or maimed.<br /><br />Remember, they themselves torture those they capture and then cut off their heads.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-52571463560427545162009-07-09T12:44:10.230+01:002009-07-09T12:44:10.230+01:00He was of course right to raise it - we simply sho...He was of course right to raise it - we simply should not be complicit in torture.<br /><br />However Davis, & all the rest of the MPs know perfectly well that this pales into insignificance compared to genocide, the sexual enslavement of children & cutting innocent people up while still alive to steal their body organs which he knows that almost all MPs are personally complicit in.neil craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09157898238945726349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-15255231522102156802009-07-09T12:26:26.235+01:002009-07-09T12:26:26.235+01:00I am amazed that so many people seem to see the is...I am amazed that so many people seem to see the issue in purely black and white terms.<br /><br />I would say that torture, from a basic starting point, is fundamentally wrong. Yet, in certain circumstances, it can achieve results. Of course, these circumstances must be extreme, else we descend to a level of wanton barbarism.<br /><br />Those who have claimed that it is always unjustifiable have pointed to Davis' personal experience in the army but have conveniently omitted to mention that plenty of US military staff have testified to the effectiveness of torture in obtaining crucial information.<br /><br />I should stress that, in my view, torture is to be avoided in all but the most extreme of cases and I don't buy into the view that we should stoop to their level. I don't want this post to be caricatured as pro-torture and anti-civil liberties. But, like I said, issues are seldom black and white.<br /><br />Finally, it is interesting that posters who are anti-torture and pro-liberty have, on occasion, resorted to foul language and bizarre references to Jack Bauer and, stranger still, masturbation. Surely damaging to their arguments, which would be better served by more careful analysis and fewer ad hominem attacks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-67591878024706590702009-07-09T12:15:00.102+01:002009-07-09T12:15:00.102+01:00"For all you frothers-at-the-mouth like Marti..."For all you frothers-at-the-mouth like Martin, is there any line you would draw when it comes to giving the security services carte blanche to defend us?"<br /><br />I shall again point out.<br />The scum bag went to pakistan of his own free will and claims he was tortured there, by the ISI.<br /><br />This is nothing to do with the UK.<br />MI5/6 knew?<br />So? Shall we stop all intelligence cooperation with any regime that is accused of using torture?<br /><br />We didnt do it, nor were we in any way responsible for it.DominicJnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-54914205509976712612009-07-09T11:10:40.933+01:002009-07-09T11:10:40.933+01:00Davis should be kicked ou of the party and sent to...Davis should be kicked ou of the party and sent to the Tower for the lily livered terrorist supporting traitor he is.If the Government is not torturing Muslims whose first name is invariably Mohumud -(go figure) on a regular basis it would not be doing its job.niconoclasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11346612911422614130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-34356673464078523492009-07-09T11:09:44.311+01:002009-07-09T11:09:44.311+01:00For all you frothers-at-the-mouth like Martin, is ...For all you frothers-at-the-mouth like Martin, is there any line you would draw when it comes to giving the security services carte blanche to defend us?Steve Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15992098012803570361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-84001512138376343042009-07-09T11:07:01.976+01:002009-07-09T11:07:01.976+01:00So a British court tried and convicted him of terr...So a British court tried and convicted him of terrorism. Poor little lamb...<br /><br />Next time there's a bomb on the Tube, no doubt there will be an outcry about how the Security Service don't do enough to protect us. Talk about being between a rock and a hard place!Disco Biscuitnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-7022531182684855992009-07-09T10:48:22.556+01:002009-07-09T10:48:22.556+01:00Terrorism is not a half way house between peace an...Terrorism is not a half way house between peace and war. Terrorism is beneath war. Soldiers have honour and kill soldiers, and are respected when they are caught. Terrorist plan to torture and kill civilians. There was sufficient evidence to prove this man was a terrorist before he was tortured. MI5 had aoral obligation to follow him to find more info. It was morally right to torture this man. The law simply hasn't caught up with terrorists strategy yet.Javelinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-41606521726221141042009-07-09T10:47:35.814+01:002009-07-09T10:47:35.814+01:00Is it OK for a number of innocents to be tortured ...Is it OK for a number of innocents to be tortured to get the "right" man - if so can one of you hardliners tell me how many is enough, and will you volunteer to be the first?<br /><br />Secondly, the senior FBI interrogator in Iraq, ali soufan, found out that many of the foreign fighters went there not to support Al-Qaida but to fight against the torture in Abu Ghraib, proving that torture created many of the problems there, and cost US lives to boot.<br /><br />Be careful what you wish for, it may bite you in th ar**!Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11621902416933728205noreply@blogger.com