tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post1439520035096293016..comments2024-03-04T17:54:32.559+00:00Comments on Iain Dale's Diary: The Side Effect of David Kelly's OverdoseIain Dalehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03270146219458384372noreply@blogger.comBlogger57125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-90227143292742118922008-05-20T14:18:00.000+01:002008-05-20T14:18:00.000+01:00I understand the frustration that is out there, I'...I understand the frustration that is out there, I'm just trying to put the medical viewpoint into the debate. As for the confusing legal domain I mentioned... abroad is abroad and therefore not this country and therefore does not fall under the same legislation. As a result you may be able to get various drugs abroad that are not available here and vice versa (thalidomide is an example that springs to mind - never available in USA due to potential nerve damage, available here but caused birth defects so withdrawn, still available in South America for treatment of leprosy but not licensed for use in pregnancy or breastfeeding). Do you see my point.<BR/><BR/>The reason for this legislation is not to stop people from receiving a drug that works for them (though that may be a side effect of it), it is merely to reduce the accidental/non-accidental/deliberate poisoning rates and the death rate from a drug which has been proven to be more dangerous than others in the same class.<BR/>I'm sorry for the people out there for whom co-proxamol was a satisfactory analgesic but since analgesia contains the largest group of medicines and there are many other holistic/complementary therapies available = GO TO YOUR DOCTOR AND TALK TO HIM ABOUT THE PROBLEM.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-50725574253985658092008-05-12T10:01:00.000+01:002008-05-12T10:01:00.000+01:00Confusing legal domainUnlicensed medication which ...Confusing legal domain<BR/><BR/>Unlicensed medication which can be obtained but would be illegal to prescribe by any doctor in the UK but you could in theory be prescribed it overseas by a doctor overseas and not have any problems as long as you had a letter stating this from that doctor<BR/><BR/>I used co prox when I had a disc prolapse<BR/><BR/>It was the best thing out<BR/><BR/>Now if I had a disc prolapse Id be after dihydrocodeine or oramorph as a replacement<BR/><BR/>You see where the difficulty lies though dont you?Henry North London 2.0https://www.blogger.com/profile/14748991488145468593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-46223324542424682722008-05-11T15:19:00.000+01:002008-05-11T15:19:00.000+01:00I would like to attempt to close the debate on thi...I would like to attempt to close the debate on this subject once and for all. As a Pharmacy Graduate I know all about this situation. What has happened is that many reports of accidental death and suicide come in every year linked to paracetamol and various opiates. The key difference with co-proxamol is that, while containing a lower dose of paracetamol that other combination products, it contains a relatively large amount of dextropropoxyphene. This, it has been found, has much more pronounced cardiac and respiratory side effects than morphine, to which it is related. As a result, not the NHS but the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Authority (MHRA) made the well-reasoned and informed decision to remove the Manufacturers; License from the product and any containing co-proxamol. This means that it is not officially a medicinal product and as such cannot be prescribed on the NHS. It can still be manufactured but starts to fall into confusing legal domain which will more than baffle the most intelligent of you.<BR/><BR/>As a result, the current closest matching product is 30/500 co-codamol or 10/500 co-dydramol. As many people here have correctly stated there are other alternatives and each individual must persevere until they find a product suitable for them. If that means taking Paracetamol+NSAID (insert diclofenac/naproxen/ibuprofen etc) +opiate then so be it. It is on the onus of the patient and doctor to work together in partnership to find the best combination and not to blame the NHS for preventing a few 1000 deaths every year and thereby reducing the NHS' outlay-for-treating-overdose-and-drug-misuse costs. To be honest, if they can reduce that by the ~£1,000,000 they reckon they can through this legislation, then all these other people out there who go on the news because they have been denied treatment that will cost the NHS £5000 a month might get some relief, and I wouldn't get so frustrated with people who think they have the right to everything without paying anything into the system or thinking that the money has to come from somewhere so bloody well raise taxes by however much it takes!<BR/><BR/>Rant over, and hopefully the end to this discussion too (although I concede I may have opened up a whole new can of worms).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-70573298689688698662008-02-10T16:45:00.000+00:002008-02-10T16:45:00.000+00:00Co-proxamol got me through my disc prolapse I wont...Co-proxamol got me through my disc prolapse I wont hear a bad word against it<BR/><BR/>Anyway<BR/><BR/>Dihydrocodeine is converted to heroin in the body... much easier than codeine<BR/><BR/>If morphine were codeine then dihydrocodeine would be heroin<BR/><BR/>They both have acetyl bonds which is why they dissolve fasterHenry North London 2.0https://www.blogger.com/profile/14748991488145468593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-66076121736783233152007-07-22T00:27:00.000+01:002007-07-22T00:27:00.000+01:00Now if my understanding of a co-proximol overdose ...Now if my understanding of a co-proximol overdose is anything to go by, the paracetamol causes irreversable liver damage and the dextropropoxphene will simply stupify you...hence the "Do not drive or operate machinery" warning on all distalgesics. So not really an ideal tool for those contemplating ending it all....unless of course we are forgetting something. Alcohol! How many of the documented co-prox related suicides or attempted suicides involved a fatal mix of pills and booze? They always do on the television! Seen it times, the good guy just cant take any more....so he takes to his bed with a packet of pills and a bottle of whiskey. Dont remember the scene where the guy takes a packet of pills and a bottle of Evian water though....must have missed that film!ffrankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12670665304952453071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-25984975436822661592007-06-17T16:34:00.000+01:002007-06-17T16:34:00.000+01:00Are there no lengths that this squalid bunch of ch...Are there no lengths that this squalid bunch of charlatains will not go to cover their tracks and divert attention?<BR/><BR/>The banning of this drug has just increased my suspicions in regard to the whole affair.Roger Thornhillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01153744692290896812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-66593277375013987942007-06-17T16:17:00.000+01:002007-06-17T16:17:00.000+01:00neil craig said...On a utilitarian view we are cer...<I> neil craig said...<BR/><BR/>On a utilitarian view we are certainly killing many people by preventing them getting drugs whose side effects, if any, are only apparent when feeding rats enormous quantities. The extrapolation that small quantities have a proportional effect to large one is known as the Linear No Threshold theory. An older theory known as Hormesis, that small quantities of materials that are dangerous in large quantities may be good for you is small has more experimental support in chemistry & far more in real life. </I><BR/><BR/>This just goes to show what happens when you have people who don't understand science making scientific decisions (a situation that is bound to increase as the teaching of real science is banned - see Wellington Grey about physics). <BR/><BR/>We really ought to ban water, as an overdose of it caused a foolish girl to die while participating in a radio station competition in the USA, and equally caused the only death among runners in this year's London Marathon.<BR/><BR/>Life is real, we are adults. Please let us make our own decisions based on our own priorities and understandings.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-2307223021407307192007-06-17T13:41:00.000+01:002007-06-17T13:41:00.000+01:00There is a large political dimension to this Iain ...There is a large political dimension to this Iain - but it's not Dr Kelly. <BR/><BR/>Go to www.pubmed.org and search for proxamol<BR/><BR/>The recommendation seems to be to restrict the license and not to ban it. Somebody in Government seems to have over reacted. This story seems to be related to deaths of men from suicide that have been in the paper recently. 4000 men have died from suicide compared with 150 killed in Iraq over the same period. This Government give mens health a raw deal (because we're working all day). Whether it's suicide, GPs working hours men get shafted. Men need a minister.<BR/><BR/>The real killer is thay men live 5 years less than women - this is the same as the same longevity gap between the poorest and richest areas in Scotland. Loads of tax payers money is poured in to poverty but none into mens longevity - it's a national scandle.<BR/><BR/>Anyway back to point. Here are some of the titles of papers that have been published on the drug. It all seems to kick off in May 2002 after a published study on trends in suicide. Dr Kelly died in July 2003. <BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Trends in suicide from drug overdose in the elderly in England and Wales, 1993-1999.<BR/><BR/>Co-proxamol and suicide: Licence needs to be changed.<BR/><BR/>Co-proxamol and suicide: Co-proxamol should be restricted, not banned.<BR/><BR/>Co-proxamol overdose is associated with a 10-fold excess mortality compared with other paracetamol combination analgesics.<BR/><BR/>Co-proxamol and suicide: preventing the continuing toll of overdose deaths.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-49629214105226770722007-06-17T13:35:00.000+01:002007-06-17T13:35:00.000+01:00what actually 'damaged' David Kelly's health was h...what actually 'damaged' David Kelly's health was having the inside knowledge and credibility to contract neocon lies. This condition normally causes severe 'loss of career', but in rare cases can lead to the sufferer becoming 'suicided'.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-56131978732574549322007-06-17T13:29:00.000+01:002007-06-17T13:29:00.000+01:00It all seems to be tied up with paracetamol. This ...It all seems to be tied up with paracetamol. This is a little confusing can anybody else make out what is going on?<BR/><BR/><BR/>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=17061964<BR/><BR/><BR/>AIMS: To describe how changes in legislation to restrict paracetamol sales have affected overdose discharges and death associated with the drug in Scotland. METHODS: A descriptive analysis of routine death and hospital discharge data for the entire Scottish population between 1995 and 2004. Patients in Scotland participated who were discharged from hospital with a diagnosis of poisoning; deaths in Scotland from diagnosis of poisoning 1995-2003 were also analysed. Outcome measures were changes in mortality and overdose due to poisoning involving paracetamol. A comparison was made of in-hospital and out-of-hospital mortality in fatalities involving paracetamol. RESULTS: The majority of paracetamol-associated deaths were due to co-proxamol. Deaths associated with paracetamol alone or with ethanol occurred principally in hospital and were a minority of deaths overall. The proportion of in-hospital deaths attributed to paracetamol increased (post/pre ratio 1.347; 95% confidence interval 1.076, 1.639; P = 0.013). Overall numbers of cases discharged with poisoning fell. The proportion of these involving paracetamol in any form increased significantly in all groups except young men aged 10 to <20 years. CONCLUSIONS: Legislation has not reduced mortality or proportional use of paracetamol in overdose, both of which appear to have increased in Scotland since pack-size limitations. Other approaches are necessary to reduce the death rate from overdoses involving paracetamol.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-18341884311165102842007-06-17T13:17:00.000+01:002007-06-17T13:17:00.000+01:00The same applies to thalidomide which eases pain w...The same applies to thalidomide which eases pain when morphine no longer does. The effect on unborn children is now understood & works only in combination with a lack of vitamin B & so could be perfectly safe if sold only in tablets also containing vitamin B.<BR/><BR/>Pot has aslo, it is alleged, a similar effect on pian relief.<BR/><BR/>On a utilitarian view we are certainly killing many people by preventing them getting drugs whose side effects, if any, are only apparent when feeding rats enormous quantities. The extrapolation that small quantities have a proportional effect to large one is known as the Linear No Threshold theory. An older theory known as Hormesis, that small quantities of materials that are dangerous in large quantities may be good for you is small has more experimental support in chemistry & far more in real life.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-48077572814503713932007-06-17T11:57:00.000+01:002007-06-17T11:57:00.000+01:00DK wasn't even given a lethal dose - which I under...DK wasn't even given a lethal dose - which I understand is quite high.<BR/><BR/>I was given it as a child to treat migraines so it can't be that dangerous.<BR/><BR/>Classic stupidity from NL.Old BEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06974090439936326476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-77059076946595677022007-06-17T10:55:00.000+01:002007-06-17T10:55:00.000+01:00Is co-proxamol what allowed His Grace to bear the ...<I>Is co-proxamol what allowed His Grace to bear the flames with such dignity?</I><BR/><BR/>Quite so, quite so. But it was divinely induced, not orally consumed, and the pain, though very great indeed, was subsumed to the analgesia of the assurance of salvation.Archbishop Cranmerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16817505540390495385noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-45739545299140576452007-06-17T10:05:00.000+01:002007-06-17T10:05:00.000+01:00Litozin"I learned of some research carried out in ...<A HREF="http://www.nutraingredients-usa.com/news/ng.asp?n=62428-europharma-litozin-joint-health-glucosamine" REL="nofollow">Litozin</A><BR/><BR/>"I learned of some research carried out in Scandinavia"<BR/><BR/>Seems to have caught on....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-42399367066790002102007-06-17T09:49:00.000+01:002007-06-17T09:49:00.000+01:00vienna,thank you for the tip!A.vienna,<BR/><BR/>thank you for the tip!<BR/><BR/>A.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-12426945823534877802007-06-17T06:22:00.000+01:002007-06-17T06:22:00.000+01:00As a sufferer of arthritis for many years, I tried...As a sufferer of arthritis for many years, I tried everything. Pain killers of whatever basis, do not prevent, or reduce the cause.<BR/><BR/>About one year ago I learned of some research carried out in Scandinavia where a component of Rose-Hip berries was found to really help to reduce the inflammation. Our local chemist was kind enough to find a supplier of the capsules and I began taking them. I'm not normally a fan of natural medicines, but I was desperate to try anything. After just a few weeks the arthritis began to recede and believe it, or not, has now completely gone. It might not work for everyone, but it's worth a try. The name of the capsules that I have been taking is "LITOZIN" and I daresay they are available in the UK.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-13265325456590036402007-06-17T03:30:00.000+01:002007-06-17T03:30:00.000+01:00Bwoy Hiain man.Me sorry fe 'ear about your Mum.Fer...Bwoy Hiain man.<BR/><BR/>Me sorry fe 'ear about your Mum.<BR/><BR/>Fergit dem pharmaceutical and stick wid de horganic.<BR/><BR/>Best t'ing fe she, a couple a bag a dat nice cauli 'erb from back a yard.<BR/><BR/>In fac', me know a man.<BR/><BR/>One Love.<BR/><BR/>R'n'D.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-70202271636589116422007-06-17T02:12:00.000+01:002007-06-17T02:12:00.000+01:00Oh dearLot of cod medicine here, e.g. "Diclofenac ...Oh dear<BR/><BR/>Lot of cod medicine here, e.g. <BR/><BR/>"Diclofenac is also good as you can take it in combination with paracetamol."<BR/><BR/>Yes, you can, but it is not coproxamol.<BR/><BR/>Coproxamol (the famous Distalgesic) was a compound pain killer containing destropropoxyphine<BR/><BR/>see here (http://www.tiscali.co.uk/lifestyle/healthfitness/health_advice/netdoctor/archive/100004293.html)<BR/><BR/>From a strictly scientific point of view, compound analgesia is not a good idea. Best to use the components separately. <BR/><BR/>The most dangerous thing about Distalgesic was the paracetamol, not the dextropropoxyphene. <BR/><BR/>Don't really know why it was taken of the market : fear of dextropoxyphene I suspect - it did make some people woozy.<BR/><BR/>It is much missed by patients and therefore by doctors.<BR/><BR/>Was it THAT good? I doubt it. Many feel it was the torpedo shape of the original distalgesic that got people - usually old ladies - hooked.<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>JohnAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-82513289407024870702007-06-17T00:16:00.000+01:002007-06-17T00:16:00.000+01:00Iain - great sympathy with your mother - I've got ...Iain - great sympathy with your mother - I've got osteoarthritis in my shoulder and it's not pleasant.<BR/><BR/>On the subject of NHS refusing established treatments to patients see the following:<BR/><BR/>http://devilinthedetail.blogspot.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-90867274138317565082007-06-16T23:34:00.001+01:002007-06-16T23:34:00.001+01:00Co-proxamol is safe, it was threatening Blair's p...Co-proxamol is safe, it was threatening Blair's position that was fatal in Kelly's case.<BR/><BR/>BTW If you need the stuff, get it over the counter from any farmacia on your next trip to Torremolinos/Benidorm etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-23465168084248667382007-06-16T23:34:00.000+01:002007-06-16T23:34:00.000+01:002 Paracetamol (500mg) and 2 Tramadol (50mg) pacify...2 Paracetamol (500mg) and 2 Tramadol (50mg) pacify my aching arse on a car journey.<BR/>For sitting at my desk, 2 Paracetamols and copious amounts of whiskey.<BR/>Best wishes to your mother.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-80357351672066585302007-06-16T23:19:00.000+01:002007-06-16T23:19:00.000+01:00Is co-proxamol what allowed His Grace to bear the ...Is co-proxamol what allowed His Grace to bear the flames with such dignity? <BR/><BR/>A handful of paracetamol can kill as surely government agents sorry I mean co-proxamol. King John died of a surfeit of lampreys, and they haven't been banned yet. Although it maybe in Brown's first 100 days.Peter Mchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03850862887931603954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-73125129238812724172007-06-16T23:12:00.000+01:002007-06-16T23:12:00.000+01:00I wonder if David Kelley's death had more to it th...I wonder if David Kelley's death had more to it than a Coproxamol overdose? Maybe Tony Blair can expand on this??<BR/>A dark cloud still hangs over that incident...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-24096460056517096992007-06-16T23:06:00.000+01:002007-06-16T23:06:00.000+01:00Explain to me again the benefit of having, not onl...Explain to me again the benefit of having, not only the state, but a directly political government department running hospitals.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-24513147384869040972007-06-16T23:04:00.000+01:002007-06-16T23:04:00.000+01:00Hmm..interesting. The only time I've ever taken th...Hmm..interesting. The only time I've ever taken this was while recovering from a hernia operation. This seems rather bizarre, as most drugs have side-effects. As Ian Thorpe points out, because a few people are stupid [or possibly reckless..] all have to suffer. <BR/><BR/>The only consolation is that a 'man of your means' may be able to acquire such medication 'off-prescription'. Less than ideal, and may have insurance implications. <BR/><BR/>Although I often find that the reason such medication is no longer available on the NHS is something else entirely - they have a very similar new drug which is still 'on-patent' whereas the old drug is 'off-patent' and so they can keep coining in revenue long after the 15 year patent life has expired. <BR/><BR/>Trebles all round !!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com