tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post116964210761129800..comments2024-03-04T17:54:32.559+00:00Comments on Iain Dale's Diary: Ming Campbell's Direct Hit at PMQs But His Policy on Iraq is Deeply IrresponsibleIain Dalehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03270146219458384372noreply@blogger.comBlogger79125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1169730911328607262007-01-25T13:15:00.000+00:002007-01-25T13:15:00.000+00:00Send Blair a "White Feather" - join the campaign!h...Send Blair a "White Feather" - join the campaign!<BR/><BR/>http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=56614/start=30.html<BR/><BR/>Dear Mr Blair<BR/><BR/>Your failure to lead the debate on Iraq on 24 January was the action of the most craven coward. <BR/><BR/>I attach this white feather as a token of my contempt. You must either apologise in public or resign from office immediately.<BR/><BR/>Regards<BR/><BR/>White Feathers at:<BR/><BR/>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/48/A_single_white_feather_closeup.jpg/200px-A_single_white_feather_closeup.jpgAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1169729095941326122007-01-25T12:44:00.000+00:002007-01-25T12:44:00.000+00:00I hope this does not worry you too much mate but I...I hope this does not worry you too much mate but I agree with 100% on this one. Pulling out by October would just empower Iran and its followers. I think a more measured pull-out would be better. It seems that many people just want to leave the peace-loving Iraqis to their own fate...well assuming that these people have even given a thought or two.Andrew Ian Dodgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16293965494182995460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1169721819938165912007-01-25T10:43:00.000+00:002007-01-25T10:43:00.000+00:00I agree wholeheartedly with you on this, it would ...I agree wholeheartedly with you on this, it would be an act of quite staggering moral cowardice for us to leave Iraq in the present circumstances, like it or not we had a hand in creating the mess that exists and I cannot see how we could hold our heads up in the world were we to withdraw and leave the many millions of innocent Iraqis at the hands of fundamantalist madmen. To run away in the face of a bunch of primitive savages would send an appaling message to the world about the type of people we really are, henceforth our word would be worth nothing, Perfidious Albion indeed!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1169719200774315582007-01-25T10:00:00.000+00:002007-01-25T10:00:00.000+00:00Fantastic. Dozens of people claiming that either "...Fantastic. <BR/>Dozens of people claiming that either "we are making things worse" or "we are making things better." <BR/>People saying that Iraqi people do or do not rely on the British and American forces. <BR/><BR/>Hands up who's actually been to Iraq and asked them? Or witnessed what the British troops are doing out there? <BR/><BR/>Funny story: my hand is down and I don't have the extraordinary arrogance to comment either way without having seen for myself.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1169679249909747002007-01-24T22:54:00.000+00:002007-01-24T22:54:00.000+00:00We bent it, we need to stay and help mend it.We bent it, we need to stay and help mend it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1169670817096279322007-01-24T20:33:00.000+00:002007-01-24T20:33:00.000+00:00I don't agree with those who are calling Iain a n...I don't agree with those who are calling Iain a neocon, but this does not make his argument correct. The Lib Dems are currently the only party in Westminster with a coherent policy on Iraq.<BR/><BR/>There is a military saying, and I am an ex-military type: never reinforce failure. The mission in Iraq - whatever that is - has been thrown away through gross negligence. The Iraqi army should never have been disbanded, de-Baathiciation was a ludicrous idea, there was no coherent occupation policy, nowhere near enough troops to maintain security and the supposed "reconstruction" was both a miserable failure and blatant profiteering by US companies. We should know better. The UK kept many thousands of troops in Northern Ireland, initially to prevent sectarian attacks. The troops themselves became targets and the ratio of troops to population in Northern Ireland was far higher than is currently the case in Iraq. There is no way that troop levels in Iraq - regardless of Bush's surge - are enough to provide security or to regain control of the country.<BR/><BR/>We are where we are. Dubya declared "Mission Accomplished" in 2003 and this is now 2007. If the Lib Dem plan was implemented, troops would be out by late 2007. If not, their presence in Iraq will drag on to 2008. Meanwhile, another war is dragging on in Afghanistan and we are likely to lose two wars instead of admitting defeat in Iraq and refocusing resources in Afghanistan. The British Army (and sister services) is grossly overstretched, obscenely underequipped and the MoD is effectively bankrupt. Ming Campbell started by stating it was not longer reasonable or legitimate to ask our armed forces to bear this burden. <BR/><BR/>So why are UK troops still in Iraq? The answer is simple - they are there (along with US troops) to preserve the illusion that the situation can be recovered, to preserve the political careers of two lame-duck leaders on the way out. British troops are risking their necks, suffering wounds and dying for one reason only - to preserve Bliar's fading political career, his vanity and his refusal to accept reality. His failure to lead today's debate clearly shows that he is a coward, a disgrace to office and a disgrace to those who have served - and who continue to serve - in Iraq.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1169670243235534832007-01-24T20:24:00.000+00:002007-01-24T20:24:00.000+00:00Dizzy: "No oil assets have been grabbed. We are bu...Dizzy: "No oil assets have been grabbed. We are buying the oil."<BR/><BR/>Strictly speaking that may be true, but under the 30 year Production Sharing Agreements that are going to become law soon, Western companies will invest in the infrastructure, extract the oil when they like (although it still "belongs" to the Iraqi government) and sell it on behalf of the Iraqi government, keeping 70% of the revenue until they have recovered their costs, and then keeping 20% of the profits of extraction there after. Of course they won't be obliged to start investing until things have calmed down.<BR/><BR/>It is the model that was used by the British in their colonial days and compares unfavourably with the current North Sea regime. Companies pay a 15% royalty, 50% PRT on their net field receipts (deductible from corporation tax), corporation tax on their profits at 40%. Unlike the North Sea where investors have to find the oild and then drill for it in hundreds of fett of water, in Iraq there are 58 fully mapped but undeveloped fields waiting to be exploited. So much for taking risk.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1169670166957028162007-01-24T20:22:00.000+00:002007-01-24T20:22:00.000+00:00Iain, you say you want to avoid wishful thinking i...Iain, you say you want to avoid wishful thinking in this discussion, but it's you who is engaging in it: your stated reason for staying in Iraq is that you think that eventually this will result in the people of Iraq going peacefully about their business, but there's no sign that that is what is going to happen. <BR/><BR/>It's your side that is being irresponsible in your refusal to face up to the consequences of your actions. And it's been like this from the outset, don't you talk to me about hindsight, damn it, the present disaster was quite predictable, and it was authoritatively predicted in the pre-invasion debate. <BR/><BR/>Our leaders acted irresponsibly by putting us into this situation. We didn't need to make Iraq our special responsibility, because it didn't present us with a direct threat. Responsibility for this kind of problem needs to be shared as widely as possible around the world, but our leaders foolishly rejected that obvious principle.<BR/><BR/>The bad decisions taken up until now have been immature, based on emotion instead of facts, and this idea of staying until "our mission" is complete is just another example of that sort of superficial thinking. <BR/><BR/>Campbell's call to pull troops out is a mature and responsible recognition of the reality.<BR/><BR/>Best wishes,<BR/><BR/>Bernie RAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1169670010577933152007-01-24T20:20:00.000+00:002007-01-24T20:20:00.000+00:00You really have been conned rotten by the neo-cons...You really have been conned rotten by the neo-cons haven't you Iain?<BR/><BR/>Just remind me again, who's keeping the peace? And what peace is that then?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1169667814006983682007-01-24T19:43:00.000+00:002007-01-24T19:43:00.000+00:00Well spoken Iain, I agree with your position.Well spoken Iain, I agree with your position.Gavinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10843996857494739064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1169665275948101832007-01-24T19:01:00.000+00:002007-01-24T19:01:00.000+00:00The Tory policy, as we all should know, is to send...The Tory policy, as we all should know, is to send Iain Dale to baghdad on a camel.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1169665215798213172007-01-24T19:00:00.000+00:002007-01-24T19:00:00.000+00:00"No oil assets have been grabbed. We are buying th..."No oil assets have been grabbed. We are buying the oil."<BR/><BR/>Dizzy if you believe this, you are indeed obviously Tony Blair. certain hand-picked firms are charging the earth for XextractX steling the oil for us.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1169664985394844712007-01-24T18:56:00.000+00:002007-01-24T18:56:00.000+00:00"WTF is Blair doing which is more important?"Proba..."WTF is Blair doing which is more important?"<BR/><BR/>Probably some rehabilitiation in the company of Ms caplin is called for?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1169664682009865992007-01-24T18:51:00.000+00:002007-01-24T18:51:00.000+00:00"I have to say this is one of the most irresponsib..."I have to say this is one of the most irresponsible policy announcements I have heard from them for a long time"<BR/><BR/>Jolly good job you have such a poor view of the majority of US and UK Generals Iain, as well as the Baker Commission. If you're in a hole with quicksand pouring doewn the side you stop digging. A few climb on top of each other and may get out - this way the numbers who die (and some do!) is halved.<BR/><BR/>The whole point is that nobody is 'relying on our troops for their security". They are unfortunately relying on our troops (and much more so the Americans) to be the (unwitting) recruiting sergeants for hordes of fresh insurgents.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1169663961848938022007-01-24T18:39:00.000+00:002007-01-24T18:39:00.000+00:00Two quick points:First, can we please get away fro...Two quick points:<BR/><BR/>First, can we please get away from the fiction that this is about oil. Please visit the International Advisory and Monitoring Board - the auditors for the Development Fund for Iraq (DFI) - who have detailed reports on where the oil money has gone since the invasion. The DFI was established pursuant to United Nations Security Council Resolution 1483 and holds the proceeds of petroleum export sales from Iraq. <BR/><BR/>http://www.iamb.info/<BR/><BR/>Second, Iraq is a society in transition. No country that has been so brutally ruled for so long was going to move without problems to a free and democracy at the flick of a switch. Post war Germany took years to be helped back to the fold of civilised nations. And it will be the same with Iraq. We must stay the course, and help the Iraqis to rebuild their country. The Lib Dem policy would leave Iraq at the mercy of the gunmen and no doubt in time some form of dictatorship.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1169663611853259312007-01-24T18:33:00.000+00:002007-01-24T18:33:00.000+00:00Guys - it's simple.We should not have gone to warW...Guys - it's simple.<BR/><BR/>We should not have gone to war<BR/>We having nothing to win<BR/>We have already lost<BR/>We owe the Iraqi's nothing and they will not remember us for anything other than illegal occupation. The "dont cut and run" strategy is a simple delaying tactic as both GW and Bliar hope somehow it will turn round. We have lost thats why hes sending more troops!<BR/><BR/>Thes etroops are dying, its not about politics and spin. Its about reality of both sacrifice and advantage gained; we must pull out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1169663575537966452007-01-24T18:32:00.000+00:002007-01-24T18:32:00.000+00:00I totally agree with what you say on this Iain.I m...I totally agree with what you say on this Iain.<BR/><BR/>I myself have never felt easy about this war and was convinced we were being conned into it by Blair and Bush. That said we are in this mess now and must not just desert the people we were supposed to be helping and supporting.<BR/><BR/>As an ex serviceman myself, I cannot help but feel that, any withdrawal should be left firmly in the hands of the military, as to the timescales and methods employed. They are the people being shot at, not the bloody politicians.<BR/><BR/>Our senior commanders must feel like car drivers, with some deranged idiot, siting in the back seat, with his hands on another steering wheel.<BR/><BR/>It is hard enough, for the services to engage with the enemy in front of them, without having to worry about a bunch of lawyers, polytechnic lecturers, ex trades unionists, socialists and assorted ex CND supporters, telling them how to run a military campaign. <BR/><BR/>I Hope, when Blair retires, to some ancient junkie, pop star's home, having his life of Riley, he understands, that the pages of his memoirs are written in the blood of the armless, legless, blinded, crippled and lifeless. Braver men and women than he is. All sent to Iraq on a lie and to form part of his legacy. It makes you want to weep.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1169661508156247642007-01-24T17:58:00.000+00:002007-01-24T17:58:00.000+00:00Anon 529We will cut and run however this is dresse...Anon 529<BR/><BR/>We will cut and run however this is dressed up. This is absolutely no reflection on our troops who are lions led by political donkeys. Our political masters have no right to use our troops in this way. Iraq is in the throes of a civil war. We and the US either have 500000 troops there for the next ten years or none at all. We owe it to our troops to get out now. They deserve more informed and more honest politicians. Vietnam. 500,000 troops and vanquished. 50,000 dead US. 1million Vietnamese. Inflation for 15 years. Country still recovering from that devastation. What for. US ideology. Go figure. Whats the end game.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1169661107331868652007-01-24T17:51:00.000+00:002007-01-24T17:51:00.000+00:00Mark Williams: Much as I respect your blog writing...<I><B>Mark Williams:</B></I> Much as I respect your blog writing, this is rubbish. It sounds like the sort of argument put forward by NeoCon loonies and/or Tim Montgomerie.<BR/>===========<BR/><BR/>Actually, it's called classical liberalism. A gentleman called Thomas Hobbes in a book called Leviathan, 1660, Chapter 13, <A HREF="http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/phl302/texts/hobbes/leviathan-c.html#CHAPTERXIII" REL="nofollow">ON the natural condition of mankind as concerning their felicity and misery</A>. I realise it's fashionable to throw the neo-con term around, but in this case it is you that's talking nonsense.<BR/><BR/>International treaties are not laws, they are agreements which can quite easily be broken. Laws enforcable by sovereigns, there is no international sovereign, ergo there is no international law. The UN Charter is just the same, it carries absolutely no legally binding wieght on nations whatsoever, hence the fact the UN passes resolutions (like the People's Front of Judea) rather than actually doing anything.<BR/><BR/>You may wish to believe that treaties bind nations, but there is no international sovereign to enforce said treaties, so if one side reneges that's it, over, kaput.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1169659759601682162007-01-24T17:29:00.000+00:002007-01-24T17:29:00.000+00:00I agree with your comment Iain.Could someone pleas...I agree with your comment Iain.<BR/><BR/>Could someone please advise me the last time a PM led a debate which followed a Motion for the Adjournment of the House? I do not recall such an occasion.<BR/><BR/>The PM was at the CBI this afternoon - I watched his speech and subsequent discussion in between watching what was happening in the House. Todays speech and discussion were very important to me as they related to public services being directed to the user regardless of who provides - public, private or voluntary. The NHS is of great importance to me rather than a debate which was politically motivated. We all know that British Troops will be brought home as soon as possible - everyone even General Dannatt has said that we must complete the mission. Ming Campbell was unable to persuade me and many others in the House. I would feel total embarrassment if "we cut and run" from Iraq. Yes his views will be welcomed by the anti war brigade and he will win some votes.<BR/><BR/>My views will be criticised. I am from a military family and noone I know would follow Ming's plan. They are horrified and worry about the reputation of the British Forces running when the going gets tough.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1169659641956839502007-01-24T17:27:00.000+00:002007-01-24T17:27:00.000+00:00Iain,I can normally see sense in your arguments ev...Iain,<BR/>I can normally see sense in your arguments even if I do not agree. On this however, you have lost the plot.<BR/>(1) We are further away from "finishing the job now, after nearly 4 years than we were when we joined the invasion.<BR/>(2) I do feel for the parent of a dead soldier who said that if we were to withdraw now his son would have died in vain, but I must ask how many more will have died in vain before our leaders face facts and withdraw without having achieved anything?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1169659041095752412007-01-24T17:17:00.000+00:002007-01-24T17:17:00.000+00:00And also! In our own personal lives we very quickl...And also! In our own personal lives we very quickly identify personal situations where persuing a wrong policy will get us nowhere; we tend to quickly abandon that policy. You can reflect on your own lives and see where this is true - I need not cite examples. But it seems where one's own life is not at risk then principles last that much longer, past the point where as an individual you revise your own strategy. So Blair is still reciting the names of the dead at PMQ's even though he is partly responsible for those deaths. Hipocrisy? Go figure...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1169658723376449342007-01-24T17:12:00.000+00:002007-01-24T17:12:00.000+00:00Iain, this is the only sensible debate on Iraq goi...Iain, this is the only sensible debate on Iraq going on today. Those losers are still talking to thin air in Westminster while Bliar shreds more papers and whats left of his credibility.<BR/><BR/>I dont agree with you but applaud you for hosting the debate.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1169658711247581192007-01-24T17:11:00.000+00:002007-01-24T17:11:00.000+00:00I find reducing things to a very personal level us...I find reducing things to a very personal level usually gives you a clear path forward. Your son (or daughter) has been invited by someone very important "down your street" to separate two bullies from fighting each other in the road. Your progeny has a sense of moral responsibility but is in no way equipped to deal with this but agrees. The trouble is, for every other punch the bullies land on each other they sock your son or daughter on the jaw, just because they are there. The two bullies are paying absolutely no attention to your son or daughter other than to occassionaly assualt them. Do you as a parent: a) leave your offspring there while you have a think about what to do next, even though you are giving them no support whatsoever or b) countermand the order given by the self important person and tell your child to get the hell out of there while you have a think about what to do next?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1169658428220875352007-01-24T17:07:00.000+00:002007-01-24T17:07:00.000+00:00Dizzy: "The Iraq invasion did not constitute a cri...Dizzy: "The Iraq invasion did not constitute a crime because there is no law it broke."<BR/><BR/>Much as I respect your blog writing, this is rubbish. It sounds like the sort of argument put forward by NeoCon loonies and/or Tim Montgomerie. <BR/><BR/>First of all there is such a thing as international law. On a different level there are treaties covering Iternational Ownership Treaties, Antarctic Treaty System, Law of the Sea, the Outer Space Treaty, the Treaty, International waters and Extraterrestrial real estate. <BR/><BR/>Each country agrees to abide by its treaty obligations. Those include its obligations as a signatory to a UN Charter. There may be many faults in the way the UN and its various bodies work, but I don't think that anybody has seriously said that the basis of the UN charter is seriously flawed. OK, Blair and Bush have said that it would be nice to have an exemption for a Coal ition of the Willing to go round picking on what they deem to rogue states, but back in the real world the values of the UN charter still apply.<BR/><BR/>The UN Charter is probably the highest level of agreement between nations regulating disputes and the conduct of nations. Any serious breach might well be treated as a criminial offence as happened at the Nuremberg Trials, which were established "for the just and prompt trial and punishment of major war criminals of the European Axis". <BR/><BR/>The indictments at Nuremberg were for (i) Conspiracy to wage Aggressive War, (ii) Waging aggressive War, (iii) War Crimes and (iv) Crimes Against Huumanity.<BR/>I am not saying that any of those apply to Iraq, but neither am I saying they don't. You may remember the heads of the British Army wanting a legal opinion that there actions in invading Iraq were not in breach of UK law or international obligations.<BR/><BR/>It may be that in 30 years time, if the American Empire has faded and China and India are running the world, Bush or Blair might be arrested Pinochet-style while on holiday in some sunny country by a zealous magistrate for deportation to Iraq.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com