tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post115088081336981848..comments2024-03-04T17:54:32.559+00:00Comments on Iain Dale's Diary: Scrapping Barnett: Alice Thomson is Right & WrongIain Dalehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03270146219458384372noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1151056562950854682006-06-23T10:56:00.000+01:002006-06-23T10:56:00.000+01:00The Scots do not "loathe" the English any more tha...The Scots do not "loathe" the English any more than Oxford loathes Cambridge on boat race day. Certainly not to the extent every Afghan, Albanian or Georgian village hates the village next door.<BR/><BR/>We are currently working our way through some long overdue constitutional reforms which may end up with some form of federation or of closely cooperating "sovereign" states (I hope the former) but we have a joint history & as Iain & David Cameron prove a lot of joint blood & if we can't work through essentially petty differences (the Barnett disputes are well under 1% of GNP & Scots votes are roughly 3% to the left of English) then the human race better hand over to the next teamneil craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09157898238945726349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1150969495175551922006-06-22T10:44:00.000+01:002006-06-22T10:44:00.000+01:00"IN most federal systems, the federal government c..."IN most federal systems, the federal government can pass laws that supercede "local" or state laws and it is mandated that all judges apply federal law over state law should a conflict emerge."<BR/><BR/>Which is also the case here in relation to Scottish and Welsh devolution. The UK government has the right to legislate on devolved issue and laws passed by the UK parliament take primacy. I recently asked the Home Office why John McReid wasn't forcing Scottish police forces to merge when they are smaller than most English forces and the Home OFfice says that small police forces put us at risk of terrorism. They said that the Home Secretary couldn't because the Scottish Executive controls Scottish police. I read out the relevant line of the Scotland Act that says the UK government can legislate on devolved issues and they refused to discuss it.<BR/><BR/>The UK government <I>can</I> legislate on devolved issues in Scotland, they just choose not to.wonkotsanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04896256040598397497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1150967544783373292006-06-22T10:12:00.000+01:002006-06-22T10:12:00.000+01:00Good article in the Graun, Iain. The boys seem to ...Good article in the Graun, Iain. The boys seem to be having plenty of fun refighting Bannockburn/Colludden in the comments without my help, so with your permission I'll chip my tu'penny worth in here.<BR/><BR/>Blair offered the Celtic Cousins "devolution" in a blatent piece of vote purchasing back in the 90's. Having promised it, and realising that without the votes of the Celtic Block he'd be in deep poo, he then had to give them something. <BR/><BR/>Sadly, what he gave them was not true devolution. Oh, the Scots Welsh and Ulstermen have their toy parliaments (with all the gravy trains that seem to be part of the deal nowadays). And they have a certain amount of say in how some things get done within their feifdoms. <BR/><BR/>But there has been no clear division of responsibilities, allowing Westminster to interfer at will. Nor has there been a parallel devolution of the revenue raising function. The Jocks, Taffs and Paddies can play grown up but they still have to run to Uncle Gordon everytime they want to spend any money. As for the poor Wallies in England they don't even get the chance to pretend to be grownups.<BR/><BR/>Working on the assumption that it is now impossible to go backwards, we need to find a way out of the constitutional cock up that Tone Nice-But-Dim and Gorgeous Gordon have created.<BR/><BR/>My personal preference, as stated before is for a federal state. Each Home Nation would have its own parliament with the power to administer all domestic matters not revolved (is that the word?) back to Westminster. Each parliament would also have the responsibility for raising the required revenue for those functions. The size, makeup and electoral method used by each parliament would be a matter of later discussion.<BR/><BR/>The Westminster parliament should be much reduced in size and only take responsibility for those matters specifically allocated to it by the Home Nations (defence, foreign policy and management of the currency).<BR/><BR/>Such a system would produce a clearly balanced state with clearly defined powers and responsibilities. Unfortunately that is exactly why I suspect the UK will never acheive anything near it. And if it did I wouldn't trust the politicians in Westminster or the devolved parliaments not to screw it up within five years.<BR/><BR/>RMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1150957373624368942006-06-22T07:22:00.000+01:002006-06-22T07:22:00.000+01:00Why persist with the UK? The scots loathe the engl...Why persist with the UK? The scots loathe the english however much we subsidize them. In fact they loathe us more and more as we pay for their welfare addiction.<BR/><BR/>We do not need more government but less so why have an extra english parliament? <BR/><BR/>Give the scots 2 choices: independence + pay your own way or rule from westminster with no barnett. They are bound to go for the former & can then sod off and enjoy socialist poverty, fried mars bars and supporting germany against england in the world cup.<BR/><BR/>Meanwhile, england can cut her taxes + also the indirect subsidies of placing large government departments in scotland to create non-jobs. Those departments can be relocated to the english North, cutting our taxes still further. I am sick of being ruled by and subsidizing the whingeing parasites in scotland and the sooner they bugger off and leave us alone in england the better. <BR/><BR/>The welsh & ulster should be offered the same choice just to show we treat all subsidy junkies the same but (sadly) they are too smart to go for independence.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1150922708663245492006-06-21T21:45:00.000+01:002006-06-21T21:45:00.000+01:00Get rid of the Barnett Formula and there is no jus...Get rid of the Barnett Formula and there is no justifiable reason left for Scots voting on English law.Garethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10021800974251370747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1150903961663609832006-06-21T16:32:00.000+01:002006-06-21T16:32:00.000+01:00the new English Parliament. Sorry - we have one - ...<I> the new English Parliament. </I><BR/><BR/>Sorry - we have one - it is the one we had before 1707.<BR/><BR/>Brown wants a special coin minted next year so we can remember how Scotland came to usurp our English Parliament.<BR/><BR/>An ideal time to discuss an english Referendum followed by Repeal of the Act of Union 1707.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1150900118353659872006-06-21T15:28:00.000+01:002006-06-21T15:28:00.000+01:00As a Scot, it's none of your business anyway.No on...As a Scot, it's none of your business anyway.<BR/>No one asked me if your lot should have their own Parliament and continue treating the English like shi*<BR/><BR/>As for Wales - yes, they hate the English, but let's be fair (we are English, after all), Wales didn't exactly get the best deal, either. <BR/><BR/>Only Scotland got the preferential treatment and preferential funding. <BR/><BR/>A neighbour brought me round the Daily Mail today. Pages 20 and 21 are very interesting indeed. I recommend all English residents read it.<BR/><BR/>Democracy - It's coming home, it's coming home, it's coming......Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1150899634565438582006-06-21T15:20:00.001+01:002006-06-21T15:20:00.001+01:00hw is spot on i'm afraid. Barnett is flawed, but i...hw is spot on i'm afraid. Barnett is flawed, but if it is scrapped then some alternative formula will have to be found for allocating funding to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland (whether run by elected Assemblys/Parliaments or a UK Secretary of State). It may be the case that a 'needs based' formula would deliver slightly more money for Wales and Northern Ireland and slightly less for Scortland, but that is by no means clear since no robust evidence based assessment for spending need presently exists.<BR/><BR/>I suspect a referendum on establishing an English Parliament may well happen sometime over the next decade - but I also suspect that the solid yeomanry of England may well say no thanks!Welsh Spinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14280675812673519659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1150899603433496472006-06-21T15:20:00.000+01:002006-06-21T15:20:00.000+01:00hw is spot on i'm afraid. Barnett is flawed, but i...hw is spot on i'm afraid. Barnett is flawed, but if it is scrapped then some alternative formula will have to be found for allocating funding to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland (whether run by elected Assemblys/Parliaments or a UK Secretary of State). It may be the case that a 'needs based' formula would deliver slightly more money for Wales and Northern Ireland and slightly less for Scortland, but that is by no means clear since no robust evidence based assessment for spending need presently exists.<BR/><BR/>I suspect a referendum on establishing an English Parliament may well happen sometime over the next decade - but I also suspect that the solid yeomanry of England may well say no thanks!Welsh Spinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14280675812673519659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1150898953768658862006-06-21T15:09:00.000+01:002006-06-21T15:09:00.000+01:00The solution is simpleGet the Scottish, Welsh and ...The solution is simple<BR/><BR/>Get the Scottish, Welsh and Irish out of the House of Commons, to make it into an English Parlaiment.<BR/><BR/>Make the House of Lords into an elected British Senate to deal with defence and foreign affairs.<BR/><BR/>Steve Uncles - English DemocratsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1150897779939030032006-06-21T14:49:00.000+01:002006-06-21T14:49:00.000+01:00If we're talking English parliament, alongside a S...If we're talking English parliament, alongside a Scottish one, a Welsh one and an Ulster/Norther Irish one, then that would be the time do actually discuss a proper federal framework for the UK. <BR/><BR/>The Scottish situation is currently unique in that it has an exclusive jurisdiction on various domestic matters that most other federal systems, such as the USA, don't. IN most federal systems, the federal government can pass laws that supercede "local" or state laws and it is mandated that all judges apply federal law over state law should a conflict emerge.<BR/><BR/>So if we want an English parliament, and I agree wholeheartedly with it, we'll want a clear map of the powers of all assemblies in relation to the central, federal government.<BR/><BR/>The one problem I could see with that is that knowing LAbour's love of legislation, even in a federal framework such as the one I describe, the central government would just keep passing federal laws that supercede state laws, to the point of rendering all assemblies simply expensive redundant bodies, that can only discuss stirring arguments as passing a cat licence bill or the colour of local signposts.<BR/><BR/>Unless of course, some exclusive competences are clearly reserved to local governments...As you can see, constitutional engineering is tricky.<BR/><BR/>But, yeah, Scottish Anglo-phobia is becoming almost parodistic and forcing the Scots to pay for themselves is probably the way to go.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1150895957902556482006-06-21T14:19:00.000+01:002006-06-21T14:19:00.000+01:00I take back what I said yesterday about your Littl...I take back what I said yesterday about your Little Ben flag dropping off post. This posting is so weighty I am going to have to save it up to read it during a quiet moment...........probably in about 2017, God willing.Paul Walterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00525444717679391831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1150895206591891582006-06-21T14:06:00.001+01:002006-06-21T14:06:00.001+01:00All you enthusiasts for an English parliament shou...All you enthusiasts for an English parliament should come and spend some time up here observing the Scottish parliament. Its an embarrasment and it demeans Scotland. Yes, abolish Barnett but you will soon find that the cash saved will be gobbled up by the cost of the new English Parliament. Stop Scottish MPs voting on English matters but create a new Parliament for A List rejects and you will live to regret it>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1150895170587410632006-06-21T14:06:00.000+01:002006-06-21T14:06:00.000+01:00As a Welsh nationalists I'm all in favour of Engla...As a Welsh nationalists I'm all in favour of England regaining her sovereignty as she is one of Europe's oldest nation-states. As British nationalists, Labour just want to keep the Union because the union serves their party. <BR/><BR/>Britain's dying. It's only the BNP, Labour and the CRE who have any affection for the Union Jack any longer.<BR/><BR/>Either a federal UK or independence all-round. It's not the Balkanisation of Britain as the Brit nats will predictably say but the Scaninavianisation of Britain - three sovereign countries cooperating in harmony and parity.<BR/><BR/>Huw, Wales<BR/>http://www.british-nats-watch.blogspot.com/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1150895062522478452006-06-21T14:04:00.000+01:002006-06-21T14:04:00.000+01:00mh: "It seems to me that the Tory idea of asking t...mh: <I>"It seems to me that the Tory idea of asking the Common's Speaker to rule if an issue is 'English only' is the sanest and most cost efficient solution."</I><BR/><BR/>Ask Gorbals Mick to rule something is 'English only' when his own party's governing program and credibility might be at stake? You must be joking. (I know I know, he's supposed to be above that sort of thing but I doubt pigs will ever fly either) - could see it producing some serious hilarity though.<BR/><BR/>God I'm beginning to really enjoy this whole devolution fiasco. It's high time the whole thing blew up in their faces and it looks like that's exactly what is going to happen.Sabretachehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11652655872639394084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1150893775003075462006-06-21T13:42:00.000+01:002006-06-21T13:42:00.000+01:00Good post Iain and you are spot on that a fiscal ...Good post Iain and you are spot on that a fiscal "fix" does nothing to address the WLQ. At least Alice has a good go at explaining that this issue is based upon mandate rather than nationality which is something that we should all make crystal clear. A Scot. representing an English seat is perfectly entitled to meddle in England's affairs.<BR/><BR/>Now, where did you put that Witanagemot Club blogroll Iain?JohnJohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12169881480004252423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1150892905985577852006-06-21T13:28:00.001+01:002006-06-21T13:28:00.001+01:00"Others say the solution is to cut the number of S..."Others say the solution is to cut the number of Scottish MPs still further. The size of Scottish constituencies, with one or two exceptions, is now broadly in line with English ones, so I don't think that argument holds water."<BR/><BR/>Iain, you are forgetting that Westminster now has very little to do with North Britain so why do they still need the same level of representation as they did pre-devolution?<BR/><BR/>Scrapping the Barnett Formula is only part of the answer to the WLQ. Give North Britain full fiscal economy along with Wales and Northern Ireland but only after the maritime border between England and North Britain has been moved back to where it used to be and English North Sea oil and gas is put back into English waters again. The North Britons harp on about "their" oil when, in fact, before the maritime border was moved so that it no longer follows international convention, a large proportion of North Sea oil and gas was in English waters.<BR/><BR/>So, move the maritime border back to its rightful place, give England a parliament with at least the same powers as the North British Parliament and let each constituent nation spend the tax it raises internally. Lets see how many of our North British friends want independence when they realise it won't be the English paying for it in perpetuity.wonkotsanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04896256040598397497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1150892886439130872006-06-21T13:28:00.000+01:002006-06-21T13:28:00.000+01:00The whole devolution thing has caused seriously il...The whole devolution thing has caused seriously illogical results.<BR/><BR/>As I write in a letter published in today's Standard "as things currently stand, the next [Met Police] Commissioner will be appointed by a Scottish MP with no accountability to the London electorate and whose constituents won't be affected by the decision."<BR/><BR/>It seems to me that the Tory idea of asking the Common's Speaker to rule if an issue is 'English only' is the sanest and most cost efficient solution.<BR/><BR/>Any Scots MPs feeling 'second class' as a result can always stand in their own Parliament instead.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1150892780994833182006-06-21T13:26:00.000+01:002006-06-21T13:26:00.000+01:00I don't care the whys and wherefores. All I know ...I don't care the whys and wherefores. All I know is that England is being used as a sacrificial lamb for Scottish political ambitions.<BR/><BR/>I want democracy returned to my country NOW. <BR/><BR/>The English didn't start this, so complaining about us wanting our own Parliament equal to Scotland's, is suggesting that the implications of Scotland getting its own Parliament were not really considered - Is that really true? Are our politicians really that ignorant and stupid?<BR/><BR/>Why aren't these Conservatives that support an English Parliament, setting up an English Conservative Party? They already have a Scottish and Welsh one, so as a matter of courtesy, we English should also have our own.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1150891874609092572006-06-21T13:11:00.000+01:002006-06-21T13:11:00.000+01:00anonymous, what has Scotland got to export ? If it...anonymous, what has Scotland got to export ? If it needs revenue it can export electricity and lease bases. after all the US leases Guantanamo from Cuba and had bases at Holy Loch.<BR/><BR/>We used to lease bases at Simonstown in South Africa.<BR/><BR/>We can very easily give Scotland independence - just repeal the Act of Union 1707 - it would be great to do so in 2007. The 1801 Act of Union with Ireland is no longer in force, and the 1947 Independence of India Act gave India independence.<BR/><BR/>There is nothing easier than giving Scotland independence - it is far easier than any other part of the United KingdomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1150891712881777362006-06-21T13:08:00.000+01:002006-06-21T13:08:00.000+01:00I grow increasingly tired of explaining this - but...I grow increasingly tired of explaining this - but here goes for one more time.<BR/><BR/>The Barnett formula is a mechanism for reducing the relative advantage enjoyed by Scotland in terms of comparable public spending with England. A similar arrangement applies in relation to Wales and Northern Ireland. The formula operates by allocating to Scotland a proportion of comparable public spending increases on comparable English programmes, that proportion being set at a level which is below Scotland's share in population terms. Accordingly, over time, the Barnett formula will reduce the gap between comparable spending per head in Scotland and England.<BR/><BR/>Now it is entirely possible to argue that the Barnett formula is not working quickly enough, in which case it may need to be amended. But simply abandoning the Barnett formula will not achieve anything in itself.<BR/><BR/>Those who argue for a more radical solution to the problem of greater comparable spending in Scotland need to address the much more difficult issue of comparable spending needs. For example, is it equitable to base comparable spending on a simple per head calculation? Scotland is a less heavily populated country than England, so for example it 'needs' to spend more on roads and transport per head to deliver comparable outcomes in terms of public service. Similarly, for historical reasons, Scotland is generally recognised to have more severe health problems than south of the border, thus leading to a need for greater health spending per head. In these circumstances how do we devise a system which is fair to both countries? It is far from easy. In the 1970s, when the Barnett formula was first introduced, they ducked the issue and settled for the formula, which would gradually move the system in what was perceived to be the right direction.<BR/><BR/>I don't have the answers to the West Lothian Question (or the English question as some of us know it) but I don't think scrapping the Barnett formula is going to help.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02841453685669883035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1150891540430516652006-06-21T13:05:00.000+01:002006-06-21T13:05:00.000+01:00Please can someone tell me what the benefit is in ...Please can someone tell me what the benefit is in retaining the UK identity ? Because I cannot see one. For me it's simple; stuff all this devolution rubbish and go the whole hog. We are four different countries. Let's start living that way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1150890028079147692006-06-21T12:40:00.000+01:002006-06-21T12:40:00.000+01:00After the bloody nose the Labour govt got after th...<I> After the bloody nose the Labour govt got after the North East referendum are you surprised the Tories aren't that keen on it? </I><BR/><BR/>They lost because the Tories kept out of it.<BR/><BR/>We have Regional Assembles - they exist - the referendum was merely to legitimise them with some rigged election. They still exist - in fact they cannot be dissolved by the elected members - the Government controls them directly.<BR/><BR/>They are like Hitler's Gau-Leiter implementing national policy at regional level.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1150889864408424882006-06-21T12:37:00.000+01:002006-06-21T12:37:00.000+01:00Well in the North we don't want a regional assembl...Well in the North we don't want a regional assembly but we are stuck with an unelected one costing £2 million annually to occupy friends of Prescott.<BR/><BR/>Birmingham is nearer London than it is to this author. what has Birmingham got in common with us ? Nothing they speak through their noses........<BR/><BR/>The simplest solution is to kiss Scotland goodbye and let them fund themselves........<BR/><BR/>Let's just return to the English Parliament - it was after all the only part of these islands to actually have a Parliament going way back. It is time we liberated ourselves from these liabilitiesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-1150889688016275542006-06-21T12:34:00.000+01:002006-06-21T12:34:00.000+01:00You can't kick one member out of the UK it isn't p...You can't kick one member out of the UK it isn't possible. The president set worldwide is that a Nation can only vote itself out. England could leave the UK but it isn't actually in England's interest to do that. Defence of England was the reason England joined the Union and it hasn't gone away. Manning land borders and finding somewhere for nuclear subs, replacing the RAF bases in Scotland and Wales would cost a fortune. Not to mention a potential civil war in Northern Ireland. The UK resource-wise grew as one country and we would struggle for water in England as Wales gives us water which I'm sure would be sold to us at a premium. Scotland exports power to us. Each of the countries of the UK is highly dependent on the others. I hope the UK can stick together but I fear the worst.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com