tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post1069078996460630879..comments2024-03-04T17:54:32.559+00:00Comments on Iain Dale's Diary: Tory European Policy in Three TweetsIain Dalehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03270146219458384372noreply@blogger.comBlogger56125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-25398650807897365722009-10-05T19:47:57.060+01:002009-10-05T19:47:57.060+01:00One wonders if Dave is simply stalling so he won’t...One wonders if Dave is simply stalling so he won’t have to carry out his half-hearted promise?<br />This is the legal position taken from Mary Ellen Synon’s blog:<br /><br />http://synonblog.dailymail.co.uk/2009/10/the-legal-position-for-the-tories-on-lisbon.html<br /><br />‘The legal position is clear. The Lisbon Treaty has to be ratified by all 27 states before it comes into force. Any time up to that point, the instrument of ratification of any state which has ratified can be revoked. If there is a general election before all 27 member states have ratified the treaty, then the United Kingdom can revoke its ratification. The treaty will then be dead unless the UK reinstates its ratification following a “Yes” vote in a referendum.’<br /><br />‘However, if it is ratified by all 27 member states before the time of the general election, legally it takes effect and supersedes earlier treaties. Then it cannot be amended or revoked except by further treaty or an instrument equivalent to a treaty, such as a protocol. Britain would need to get agreement of all other member states for that.’Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-91778144454396747812009-10-05T16:15:47.968+01:002009-10-05T16:15:47.968+01:00Dave just blew about any credability he had. I won...Dave just blew about any credability he had. I wont be voting Con, nor anything else for that matter - Im just sick and tired of lies.Festoonednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-19324898224944786262009-10-05T13:25:39.007+01:002009-10-05T13:25:39.007+01:00Victor - “Labour people - the game is lost”
In wh...Victor - “Labour people - the game is lost”<br /><br />In what sense have Labour lost ? 80% of our laws are made in Brussels, and the EU will pursue a socialist big-government doctrine. The socialists have won – the Irish have just seen to that. And Cameron by his dithering.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-81821317638056730272009-10-05T13:12:11.905+01:002009-10-05T13:12:11.905+01:00"The question [snip] is not exactly a massive..."The question [snip] is not exactly a massively hypothetical one. Why is it so hard to answer?<br /><br />Very efficiently stated, Mathew.<br /><br />Why do you think it is so hard, Iain ?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-81913579957061534092009-10-05T10:31:18.626+01:002009-10-05T10:31:18.626+01:00why offer a referendum at all? Why not just have a...why offer a referendum at all? Why not just have a Europe policy in the manifesto that promises to revoke all the unnacceptable bits of the Lisbon Treaty?<br /><br />What happens if DC holds a referendum, reccommends a "No" ansswer, and then loses it to a "Yes"? Would he then resign?Johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-63083690271946933602009-10-04T23:45:57.218+01:002009-10-04T23:45:57.218+01:00No sooner does he e-mail the membership promising ...No sooner does he e-mail the membership promising no policy announcements on europe, he is already apparently briefing the press about the inevitable climb-down. This week could be fun.Jimmyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01542633492362670045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-14078018921228272452009-10-04T22:45:25.598+01:002009-10-04T22:45:25.598+01:00"Even if there is a referendum ...it's bo..."Even if there is a referendum ...it's bound to be a resounding yes vote" (Canvas)<br /><br /><br />You have no basis in fact for that claim. You are completely at odds with I Want a Referendum's regional Referendum results which produced 80% to 90% votes for a national Referendum on the Lisbon Treaty and the same percentage against the Lisbon treaty.<br /><br />These IWAR results confirm the results of all surveys I'm aware of: that the overwhelming majority in Britain do not want the Lisbon Treaty at any price.Auntie Flo'noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-86496200959220597252009-10-04T22:43:29.862+01:002009-10-04T22:43:29.862+01:00Tory policy will impinge on the politics of our na...Tory policy will impinge on the politics of our nation when Chameleon is nailed down (IF that is possible) to what sort of referendum, and when he proposes come the nexy General Election Campaign<br /><br />He has already stressed that such "pledges" are not "immutable" Ie he can lie.<br /><br />That's it.<br /><br />The Tory upset will be worth all the online kerfuffle.Quietzapplehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15422598703061456846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-84242354462833589092009-10-04T21:22:54.457+01:002009-10-04T21:22:54.457+01:00Charles, thanks for the reasoned response.
My bas...Charles, thanks for the reasoned response.<br /><br />My basic position is that all of the world's problems are now incapable of being solved or even attempted from the position of nation-states. Therefore we need supra-national organisation like we've never had it before.<br /><br />I too am not a knee-jerk supporter of the EU institutions, many of which have evolved to be corrupted. That does not mean we should not try hard though. A key reason why the EU is so badly run is that Britain for years was first kept out and then kept itself at a distance.<br /><br />Lisbon is not perfect, but it is designed at least in part to address the issues you mention, such as the democratic deficit, by giving more power to the Parliament. I do agree though that a simple "federalist" model of an EU superstate as desired by some bureacrats and politicians is not workable.<br /><br />I suspect we really need a Europe 2.0 which genuinely embraces pan-nationalism and at the same time develops much more flexible institutions. So in that sense I also don't totally disagree with Euro-sceptics.<br /><br />What I do think though is that much of the more extreme stuff about the EU that we get from UKIP and some Tories is motivated by traditional English loathing of continental "papish plots" and the like and has no place in the modern world.<br /><br />For too long, big business interests and particularly those of France and Germany were allowed to dominate EU policy. We now have a good chance of making it more responsive to the people and to the issues that really matter. In that way, Lisbon is a small step on the road, as it removes the mind-numbing veto that corrupt interests such as French farmers could always use and makes things more workable and accountable.<br /><br />I think if you care about the world's problems and the survival of one's children and grandchildren, one must see that the more and closer co-operation we can have internationally, the better. The EU still represents a bold step in that direction and should be celebrated and helped to become better, not reacted against for old-fashioned and knee-jerk reasons.<br /><br />Whenever I have been to EU meetings (quite a few at the Commission level), the ones where Britain was present went better - the British were listened to, at times, almost with embarassing deference. It really is childish and cowardly to act as though we can't succeed there both to get things right for us and for the wider good.DespairingLiberalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02903904463236135611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-59355118802766471002009-10-04T21:21:19.600+01:002009-10-04T21:21:19.600+01:00There is of course the wider point to be made that...There is of course the wider point to be made that Cameron was faced with his first really tough decision and bottled it completely.Jimmyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01542633492362670045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-77029532250948438322009-10-04T19:08:25.767+01:002009-10-04T19:08:25.767+01:00So the position is clear.
There is a Plan A and a...So the position is clear.<br /><br />There is a Plan A and a Plan B and we're not discussing Plan B unless and until Plan A runs out of steam completely.<br /><br />Seems perfectly reasonable to me; by then I honestly think the referendum horse will be long away. Besides Lisbon simply isn't the same as Nice and all this talk of threats to our sovereignty is all just a load of froth and bubble.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-51554416062974857182009-10-04T18:12:26.809+01:002009-10-04T18:12:26.809+01:00The ringleader of Tory opposition to all things fo...The ringleader of Tory opposition to all things foreign and particularly European (unless neo-Nazi - they are apparently OK and indeed cool) appears to centrally emanate from Daniel Hannan, much beloved of many of our more over-the-top headbangers here in Tory blog-landia.<br /><br />I was therefore much impressed recently to read the super-brainy Hannan's views on Iceland pre the crunch....<br /><br />"For 70 years the Althing has been dominated by the splendidly named Independence Party, which has pursued the kind of Thatcherite agenda that is off limits to EU members ... Icelanders have no more desire to submit to international than to national regulation. That attitude has made them the happiest, freest and wealthiest people on earth. Long may they remain so!"DespairingLiberalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02903904463236135611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-56669179861373935432009-10-04T18:07:57.715+01:002009-10-04T18:07:57.715+01:00Despairing Liberal:
I used to be a member of the ...Despairing Liberal:<br /><br />I used to be a member of the European Movement, and was even a president of my university branch of the Tory Reform Group - still very much on the traditional wing of the Conservative party rather than the Radical/Thatcherite arm.<br /><br />Over the last 10 years, I have become increasingly Eurosceptic. The main issues for me are:<br /><br />- Excessive centralism<br />- Democratic deficit (who voted for President Blair?)<br />- The sense that it is an "elite" project and one which has very much accelerated beyond the sense of a polity for the peoples of Europe as a whole<br /><br />My concern is that the EU as currently constructed is a fundamentally unstable edifice on shallow foundations. I would rather go slower and steadier to build something that is both democratic and has the support of the peoples as a whole. The arrogance of the elites over the rejections of Lisbon/the Constitution by the French, the Dutch and the Irish (round 1), makes me fearful about the project as a whole.<br /><br />Hopefully a rational response to your question: I am certinaly neither foaming at the mouth or a 'Little Englander'. Perhaps you would do us the courtesy of explaining (succiently!) why you are such a passionate supporter?Charlesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-3548753768542478582009-10-04T16:55:33.529+01:002009-10-04T16:55:33.529+01:00She still doesn't answer the BIG question.What...She still doesn't answer the BIG question.What if?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-15431713841342812262009-10-04T16:55:18.564+01:002009-10-04T16:55:18.564+01:00" Labour hates it when David Cameron is pragm..." Labour hates it when David Cameron is pragmatic. It's sweet how desperate for a Euro-split they are. This sceptic is fine w/ being practical."<br /><br />Well I'm still none the wiser about where DC stands after that interview. Why can't we discuss the referendum while the Poles and Czechs are discussing it ? All very muddled.<br />O/T I think 'skeptic' looks better than 'sceptic'. What's the correct spelling these days ?<br />I've seen it written both ways.Sceptical skepticnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-10631296466136501762009-10-04T16:35:36.664+01:002009-10-04T16:35:36.664+01:00Personally, I would at least like our politicians ...Personally, I would at least like our politicians to think about crossing bridges before they come to them - too often they are met with complete surprise!<br />Gordon Brown should have realized that he would need to address the question of a TV debate from the time he became PM, but obviously had failed to do so and was apparently taken by surprise. I don't want Cameron to adopt a similar attitude about the futureBrian E.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-25329874886058806762009-10-04T16:27:49.497+01:002009-10-04T16:27:49.497+01:00Iain Dale said... Harry, yes I absolutely do and s...Iain Dale said... Harry, yes I absolutely do and said so on the BBC News Channel earlier. Cameron has already said that it will be in the manifesto, so worry not <br /><br />Iain, you're in the thick of it in Manx this week. If Cameron does not have a cast iron contingency which, as you righty pointed out this morning, must be part of the manifesto then there are major winds of change afoot. <br /><br />You’re readers are "dry" Tories.Who are those on the left who need appeasing re the Europe question? Jesus, Sky reported this morning, in search of a sensational headline on a spilt, that Leon Brittan wouldn’t be happy. God save us.<br /><br />Anything other than "a conservative vote is a vote for the Lisbon Treaty revocation" is a vote lost. Very simple and you can hear it loud and clear right here and over at ConHome, not to mention Redwood, Hannan, Speccie, Guido, Johnson, Hague etc. etc<br /><br />Your blog reader content must go north with you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-8339846571913623542009-10-04T16:19:13.620+01:002009-10-04T16:19:13.620+01:00The Labour and UKIP shills are really working over...The Labour and UKIP shills are really working overtime today.<br /><br />Labour people - the game is lost. Go home and cry.<br /><br />UKippers - we already know your views, they are your only views. You may indeed poll a million votes. That might just get you one MP - not quite enough to change Britain's relationship with the EU. It might just save 30 or 40 Labour MPs their jobs. So, your one MP might condemn us to another disastrous Labour government by default. It is known as the Law of Unintended Consequences.<br /><br />Conservatives - don't fall for these assorted trouble makers, fifth columnists and quislings. They are loving every spiteful minute of this.Victor, NW Kenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14778890471547456396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-72307746752119642032009-10-04T16:09:07.389+01:002009-10-04T16:09:07.389+01:00Sorry, but what's this "ANNOUNCE what we ...Sorry, but what's this "ANNOUNCE what we do" in aid of?<br /><br />When does "DECIDING what we do" happen?<br /><br />Is the plan to only start deciding at the very last minute?<br /><br />Or is that the decision has already been made, but Cameron's unwilling to let the voters know what the decision is?<br /><br />For instance, could it the plan be to hint to potential UKIP voters during the campaign that the treaty will rejected in the hope they'll vote Conservative, then turn round and accept the treaty anyway?TheophileEscargothttp://theophileescargot.hulver.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-81351660845657061342009-10-04T15:17:54.862+01:002009-10-04T15:17:54.862+01:00So many Labour supporters in the garb of posters. ...So many Labour supporters in the garb of posters. They will not question the president-aspirant Blair or Brown about the referendum commitment in their manifesto in the previous election. Cameron said about referendum in the past, but the reality is that if he gives a referendum , the result will be coming out of EU and Britain is not respected around the emerging world: China, India, Brazil and ASEAN group and stands to lose. Norway and Switzerland have long been outside the EEC/EU and have <br />established their working relationship within the EU and outside the EU. Britain will be shunned by EU countries. After all, what can we offer to the EU-we have no manufacturing industry, our service sector is weakened.... Those want Cameron to come out say are either Eurosceptics like Cash or Labour supporters who want the Party to turn it on itself. That is their only hope of winning the next election. I am not an Europhile but if the Lisbon treaty is ratified by the Czechs and Poles, we have to come out if the referendum is held here.<br />As for Boris, he is a joker ( I voted for him and is disappointed by his performance), an advocate of amnesty for illegal immigrants in London and he should better work to deliver his manifesto commitment. He should shut up or he will hand the victory out to Labour. Cameron should find a way of working with Merkel.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-25570630318027239102009-10-04T15:14:38.497+01:002009-10-04T15:14:38.497+01:00yes voters want a change, a change from the usual ...yes voters want a change, a change from the usual politician double speak. <br /><br />don't evade the question, what would the tories do in the event of the treaty being ratified?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-40114352459479140762009-10-04T15:13:00.849+01:002009-10-04T15:13:00.849+01:00If I was Cameroon I'd thank the Irish, if they...If I was Cameroon I'd thank the Irish, if they had voted NO then the chances of a long overdue public consultation on the EU would have been nil, even EUrophilliacs must have realized forcing Eire to vote for a 3rd time was not an optionAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-45015389882504726832009-10-04T15:02:42.724+01:002009-10-04T15:02:42.724+01:00Deep down you all know what the policy is. Assumi...Deep down you all know what the policy is. Assuming ratification (face it, pretty much a dead cert now), there can be no referendum. Cameron will cobble together a figleaf which he'll announce at the last possible moment and rely on the flat earthers not wanting to rock the boat during a campaign.<br /><br />Does anyone seriously imagine there is any other scenario?Jimmyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01542633492362670045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-29824136568534623952009-10-04T15:01:58.463+01:002009-10-04T15:01:58.463+01:00What would be really useful would be a succint sum...What would be really useful would be a succint summary of why you oppose Lisbon? The usual reasons put forward make no logical sense, so I presume it is just a general effort to seek to undermine the EU, which is pathetically unworthy of a once-major political party.DespairingLiberalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02903904463236135611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6214838.post-72013859567493561992009-10-04T14:56:56.569+01:002009-10-04T14:56:56.569+01:00Only die hard loyalists and/or europhiles will thi...Only die hard loyalists and/or europhiles will think this is nearly good enough. Hardly anyone seriously believes that the treaty will not be ratified before the next election, so the Tory refusal to say what they will do in that eventuallity just looks evasive. Most people will conclude that Cameron regrets his commitment to a referendum and is looking for an excuse to kick it into the long grass.Salmondnethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04135160187810480222noreply@blogger.com