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Tory Student Leader Says: Vote UKIP
Iain Dale 1:37 PM
Student politicians think the world revolves around them. I remember. I used to be one! But if you hold an office within a political party you have a responsibility to support it. The University of York student newspaper NOUSE offered the chairmen of the three main parties a space to put forward their own party's viewpoint on who to vote for in the European Elections. Ralph Buckle is the chairman of University of York Conservatives. This is the conclusion of his article...
So the chairman of the Conservatives is encouraging his fellow students to vote UKIP. Not acceptable. I think Mr Buckle will soon find he doesn't have a future. His fellow Tory students at York should bring him to book.
UPDATE 2.30pm: Mr Buckle has just been expelled from the party. Quite right too. If you are an office holder you just cannot go round advocating that people should vote for a different party. If he wanted to do that, he should have resigned his post before writing the article.
...This leaves you with the Conservatives and UKIP as viable options. Both have well spoken representatives such as Dan Hannan and Nigel Farage. As for image it depends whether you favour a vaguely eurosceptic position and want to suggest that it might be time for a new government or if you want to tell your MPs that you think it's time the UK left the undemocratic, illiberal and wasteful EU behind. As you may have guessed, I favour the latter and would encourage you to do the same, but the decision is up to you.
So the chairman of the Conservatives is encouraging his fellow students to vote UKIP. Not acceptable. I think Mr Buckle will soon find he doesn't have a future. His fellow Tory students at York should bring him to book.
UPDATE 2.30pm: Mr Buckle has just been expelled from the party. Quite right too. If you are an office holder you just cannot go round advocating that people should vote for a different party. If he wanted to do that, he should have resigned his post before writing the article.
196 Comments:
There is a future outside of Planet Cameron. Well done to the chap for putting country before party.
Utterly unacceptable. This person should be thrown out of the party.
"His fellow Tory students at York" might think, like the majority of Conservatives/ex-conservatives, exactly as he does.
It also provokes the question as to why so many Conservative party supporters are enchanted by UKIP when it comes to the EU elections - perhaps they don't feel the Conservative party represent their feelings on this issue? Rather than berate disloyalty, it might be worth the Tory leadership acknowledging that their own perceived fudging on the issue helps create the discontent. If ever there was a time in which the electorate clear their throats and kick back against 'the Party', particularly when they feel they are not being represented adequately, then it is now.
Maybe you should blame Norman Tebbit.
Did you see that Nadine is to be challenged by the lead singer from the 80's band 'Dollar' in the next election. He's doing a Martin Bell anti sleaze type campaign. According to Sky News anyway.
First Esther and now Dollar. I'll never forgive troughing MPs for this nightmare !
Interesting though, wasn't it? Maybe the Tories need to look at Cameron before it's too late.
So the chairman of Conservative Future at York is encouraging his fellow students to vote UKIP. Not acceptable. I think Mr Buckle will soon find he doesn't have a "future". His fellow Tory students at York should bring him to book
mmmmmmm NO the Conservative's need to learn the thay will lose a lot of voter's if thay give us the people a REFERENDUM on the eu
i myself would vote tory tomorow if i have a dam REFERENDUM
Off topic, I know, but have you seen this story on the BBC, Record number of trains 'on time' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8067945.stm)
One good thing you can say about Brown - at least he made the trains run on time.
Good another sensible Tory. We want more free thinkers and less party hacks.
Perhaps he doesn't want a future with your lot?
Dale, you're jealous and a fool. York is a real university, not like that pile of steaming s*** you attended (University of Easy Access if I'm not mistaken?)
We don't think the world revolves around us but we do believe we have a right to speak out about the things we believe. Maybe a bloody nose for the main 3 parties on June 4th will help push the change agenda. A short, sharp, shock is just the thing to wake them up and do the job (not jobs) they were elected to do, like represent the people.
Remember, they work for us.
I think thats a shame the Conservative Party is already far to full of Party yes men keeping shtum while they worry about their property Empires and soft furnishings.
Iain,
So he doesn't have a "future" for having the audacity to express an opinion. How very New Conservative.
What he has written can hardly be described as encouraging others to vote UKIP - he is giving them some facts and ends by saying "the decision is up to you."
You cannot deny that he has a point.
Rather than bring him to book, why not take on board what he says and have a long, cold, critical look at Conservative EU policy. Cameron has been hopelessly vague on this.
Cameron has equivocated over Europe and failed to make clear his own views and that of his party.
He has refused a debate on the issue, saying he believes we must be part of the EU.
Cameron has not said explicitly what he believes the EU should look like and what areas of policy it should have sole competence over.
He has not stated that a Conservative government would hold a retrospective referendum on the Lisbon Treaty
Well what is it going to be? Do you want to take any measures necessary to repatriate power to Westminster, and if so which powers?
Or are you happy to accept the post-Lisbon arrangement?
Cameron should stop speaking weasel words, state what he believes in and campaign on those matters.
Perhaps the guy is in the wrong job, but I don't doubt his intentions. I'm pretty fed up with the EU and am considering going UKIP myself on June 4th.
Hague should say he will undo the treaty even if it is passed by all 27(?) member states. It would win the Tories more votes at the Euro elections.
Not sure about next years general election mind, I doubt EU will be top of peoples minds. They will be thinking about how much they hate Brown and how he has p***ed on the poor by doing things like 10p tax, Gurkers, election that never was, 'saving the world', being a complete tit.
I thought DC had just said that the "old order" of whips was now being dismantled, and that robust debate and free expression would be given time & space.
Ralph Buckle has articulated what many of us feel. We don't want something vaguely Eurosceptic, we want wholesale dismantling of the whole corrupt, undemocratic, despotic institution.
Besides, it's only the European elections. They don't actually mean anything. They are simply the closest thing we have to a referendum on the EU.
This amuses me. You just cannot understand how someone could put principle ahead of their party career, can you, Iain?
It's nice to see that, if you're ever elected, the unfortunate constituency you represent will have just another party apparatchik drone ready to do whatever the party says whenever the party says it.
You really haven't learnt a thing from the past 12 years, Iain.
He's only speaking for the majority of Tories, we want out of the EU now!
Iain,
As a former Chairman of Conservative Tory students and I can assure you that young Mr Buckle is in good company. Yourk stundent Tories have for decades prided themselves on independence of mind.
Ask Isaby, he is a one himself.
G
If the Conservative Party tries to expel everyone who dares to have a contrary view to Dave, especially over the EU, they won’t have many members left.
Not everyone is geographically predisposed to vote Hannan.
The rest of us need a voice on Europe and I dare say the Tory world is becoming a "don't ask, don't tell" culture on this issue.
If Tories were honest about Europe, they would vote UKIP. As it is, most of those who claim righteous indignation over Mr Batty Farbuckle and Mr Tebbitt would be best transferring to the Deberal Limocrats, which is their natural home.
Anonymous, I can indeed understand that. But it is simply not acceptable for a party officeholder to publicly encourage people to vote for another party. If he had any honour he'd have resigned his post and then did what he did.
Political assassination of student. Well done Iain!
If the guy wants to advocate leaving the EU then fair enough. There is room for all opinion in Tory party. However, advocating voting for another party is unacceptable, especially when given the platform provided by the conservative party name. If he wished to advocate voting UKIP he should do so from outside the party, if he just wants to advocate leaving the EU then he can do it from his current position.
happyuk07 commented earlier:-
"Rather than bring him to book, why not take on board what he says and have a long, cold, critical look at Conservative EU policy. Cameron has been hopelessly vague on this".
"Hopelessly vague" is exactly right. It may not sit well with some Conservatives to have party members preaching treason, but the problem lies in what is, at best, wishy-washy policy on this important issue.
Relax Iain,
You'll know when you've been U-KIPPED on June 4th.
Support the party? What, the actual members or the bods at the top who don't want to rock the boat or jeopardise their future careers in the EU machine?
Seriously Iain, the majority want to leave the EU, so why not represent them?
This sort of stupidity absolutely vindicates DC's approach to Europe which is not to talk about it at all if possible. The whole subject is absolute poison for the Tories. It hugely contributed to 13 years of Labour (mis)government and the purists still don't get it. Who is going to be closer to their views on Europe DC or GB? It really is that simple. Get a grip.
Iain....you called for this young lad to be thrown out of the Party.
But you did not call for Tebbit to be expelled.
Some may call that hypocritical..
Don't blame the Conservative student, blame Liberal Cameron.
If the Conservative party led by Cameron are going to sell their soul to the Devil just to get a few New Labour and shakey Liberal votes then they need real Tories to spell it out to Dave.
I think that this is yet another sign of the disillusionment that the "ordinary" people are feeling with the 3 main parties.
People are starting to realise that to actually get the change that they want they have to use shock tactics.
The expenses scandal has shown this over the last couple of weeks.
Perhaps all 3 parties need bloody noses to bring about the change that this country so desperately needs.
I have been a voter for nearly 25 years and always voted for the main parties. In the euro elections I won't be, I will be voting for a minority party, just have not made up my mind which yet.
I know some people say that it will be a wasted vote, but I like so many others feel that voting for the big 3 is a wasted vote, as they no longer represent the normal man or woman. They only do whats good for them!
Anon 2:05
One good thing you can say about Brown - at least he made the trains run on timeOnly by fiddling the timetables
Sturm und drang
What if people happen to live in an area when the Tory MEP candidates are dripping pro-EU vets. I think he was encouraging people to check candidates' euro-sceptic cred first. Not exactly a silly idea.
Methinks you protesteth too much Mr Dale.
I have a feeling in my water that you agree with the young student rather than all things to all men I wannabe elected at any price Cameron.
I am a good friend of Ralph and have been on the York Tory committee. A large percentage of the York Tories utterly support his point of view on Europe and so support his article. Many members of the society actually encouraged him to support a more pro-UKIP stance but he showed great restraint. The University of York Conservative and Unionist Association broke away from Conservative Future a few years ago to allow us to form more independent points of view rather than following the party line on everything. As York Tories we are students who are definitely Conservatives and support the ideals and values of the party, but that does not mean we, as students, just tag along on policies because the big boys in politics say we should. There are some York Tories who do still support the party for EU elections, but many of us believe that the Conservative Party is failing on the issue of the EU and feel that something must be done.
And before people start laying into the York Tories for being able to think freely and being 'rebels', talk to Conservative candidates in the area, both local and national. We do an amazing amount of work for PPCs and councillors in the area and all of them are thankful for that. We are not a bunch of student rebels, we are firmly Conservative and proud of that fact, but that definitely does not mean that we should not be able to point out the party's failures and the EU is its biggest one.
It is an utter disgrace that he has been kicked out of the party.
So there you have it: the new open Conservative Party where the concerns of the individiual need to be listened to and the blinkered party hacks become a thing of the past falls at the first hurdle.
The problem is that the Conservatives are not a conservative party. They are a bunch of neo-blairites. Who was it described himself as the heir to Blair?
"UPDATE 2.30pm: Mr Buckle has just been expelled from the party. Quite right too. If you are an office holder you just cannot go round advocating that people should vote for a different party. If he wanted to do that, he should have resigned his post before writing the article."Then Norman Tebbit must be expelled too for exactly the same crime.
I just hope CMD has the bottle to do it as at last the Country will realise that Cameron aint no Tory.
And why hasn't Lord Tebbit been booted out too?
What's sauce for the goose...
Cameron, Brown , Clegg you could not get a fag paper between any of them, you can include that " straight kinda guy" Blair in that equation also.
Look its more than obvious that none of them have the guts or the political will to go up against Herr Barrosso and his EU henchman.
And is it just me , but does the Lisbon treaty come into effect at midnight on the 1st January 2010 ?
I do believe Cameron and co know this full well.
wv tactic , thats about right.
There's no problem with this or any other student having an opinion that you should vote UKIP.
There is a problem with the Tory Student leader saying so. If he believes in UKIP, then logically he should join them.
"... if you hold an office within a political party you have a responsibility to support it"
But, but, but isn't Mr Cameron saying that there is too much whipping and inferring that more independant spirits are a good thing?
(Have already voted UKIP in the Euros)
Iain Dale....don't avoid the multiple questions.....
Why have you not called for Lord Tebbit to be excluded?
This is the problem with modern politics..1 rule for 1, 1 rule for another.
Your argument applies to Rebbit equally, your ambition prevents you from saying it?
I refer you to this...
http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2009/05/dont-mess-with-me-cameron-warns-tebbit.html
* Re PETE, Good for you, I have done the same! As to the youth Buckle, if he feels that strongly he should hsve resigned from the Party and joined UKIP, we need bright young people with commitment to get our message over to disenchanted voters, Cameron,Clarke,and Clegg.(Forget Brown, he now longer counts)
Well, I agree it's not acceptable for an 'office holder' (even a student) in the Tory party to suggest people vote for a rival party, but it was a bit bloody harsh to expel him just because there's a bit of an outcry from - well, from whom exactly apart from Iain and a couple of foghorns in these comments?
A stern word in his shell-like followed by a 'clarification' piece would have sufficed, surely. Had he refused to back down, then fair enough, but I doubt he would have refused once the error of his ways were pointed-out to him in no uncertain terms.
But summary execution? Ridiculously harsh and guaranteed to alienate his peers. So, hasty, poorly handled and counter-productive, handing a much bigger propaganda victory to the kippers.
Sorry. Totally dim of the Tories. Not impressed. Not one little bit.
Iain, you don't think that Tebbit's position as a former cabinet minister and a Conservative peer is slightly more important than a Conservative Future "office-holder"?
You were happy for Tebbit to get a warning while Buckle had to get the chop. Please explain why you think Tebbit deserved a warning.
Iain: It is no good referring people to what Cameron warned Tebbit. They both said the same thing, but one is punished whereas the other gets off with a mere warning.
To the Ex Tory, we know all about the UKIp. Saturdays piece in the Telegraph about Mr Farage said it all.
He can't have it both ways - he's either a UKIP supporter or not.
If he is, then resign using this as he reasoning.
wv numpte
Be interesting to see how this plays out when the Tories are in Government. Europe may eat them yet.
With all this talk about Farage and his band of policy pygmies, is there any public web listing of their expense claims as MEP's?
I assume that if UKIP are after our votes then they are leading by example in this spotlighted area and have uber clean snouts and trotters.
Your crack at students is unnecessary and – in this case – off target. The article is not a product of hubris or megalomania but expresses Buckle's opinion. You sound seriously out of touch.
In answer to Jabba the cat.
Glad you've brought that up.
Most of Nigel's 'expenses' are for the cost of staff and are on a par with Dan Hannan's.
Perhaps you should try to push another narrative?
So.
This morning Dave talked about the redistribution of power from bureaucracy to democracy.
This afternoon Dave walked the talk and democracy fell at the first bureaucratic hurdle.
Free thinkers not allowed in the Tory party then. Don't think they'll be getting my vote then.
The issue is not his views - the issue is irrelevant - and every party can tolerate an element of dissent. Where this crossed the line is to be a member of a party and advocate that people should vote for another. Doing that is dishonest. You are either inside the tent fighting for your views or outside fighting against the party - you can't have both. He should have resigned his position and membership if he feels strongly enough that the party is in error on this issue that he would not vote for it.
Iain. I really don't think even you get it.
In a real democractic institution, you listen to others views. You listen to criticism. You can argue your corner, you can even change people's minds.
But don't sack them becasue they don't agree with you.
That's the trouble. Not the solution.
It isn't just students. I have been a voter for 47 years.
I was always a free thinking floating voter with a Tory leaning.
The problem with parties always WAS that they never offered an a la carte menu. They always offered a dish of the day with quite a few hidden ingredients.Problem NOW is that the dishes of the day are pretty much the same but still with hidden ingredients and even many of those are now the same.
I can be sure though that all the chefs and helpers will ALL be taking home the best cuts of meat!
So UKIP,offering largely a one ingredient dish gets my vote this time. From what I hear in my village the sitting Labour MEP will find himself out on his arse since MOST people here express disgust at the EU and want out but no party GIVES them that choice. At BEST only a referendum on the Lisbon treaty which MOST understand better than the MPs and MEPs. The main parties need to wake up to the anger over jobs, immigration, and the EU.
@ York Tory
So, tell us, what actually is a 'York Tory' then? Is it some other kind of Conservative? How very confusing for us all. It might help if you could explain the differences. I suppose it's something like the differences between Socialists, the Labour Party and something called New Labour.
Lot of fools commenting this afternoon. More even than usual.
I support the creation of an English parliament. It is not Tory policy. But I don't go and tell people to vote for the English Democrats do I? By all means have internal party debates, argue your corner. But in an election period you just don't advise people to vote for another party. Especially if you are chairman of a local Tory party. If you can't understand that, then I feel sorry for you.
Bloody harsh expelling him, especially as he's basically a nobody anyway. Poor show Iain.
I think it is quite clear that when it seemed convenient, David Cameron promised to repatriate powers from Brussels and then went all quiet. So I agree with the person's views, but his behaviour has been despicable.
When I concluded that John Major's policy of shadowing the Deutschmark was betraying the country I was a member of the committees of two Conservative Associations, but resigned from both, and from the party, before helping to set up UKIP.
How can you defend someone who is supposed to be leader of a Tory group and he says vote for another party. Do me a favour!
May I be the first to wish this young Tory every success in his future career. That pitiful excuse of a heir to Blair should hang his middle of the road offend no one head in shame.
Hmm, I wonder what the consequences would be if every single Conservative party member who's planning to vote UKIP on 4 June decided to quit the party first?
I'm reminded of that line from 'Ninotchka'(1939) about how there are going to be 'fewer but better Russians' ... we'd have a magnificently loyal and 'Roon-friendly party, clearly, but I fear there'd be a fairly modest subscription base. Still, I suppose these low-level purges give the party hierarchy something to do as they await the consequences of treating the grassroots like contemptible dirt for the past few years.
Some double standards operating here. Lord Tebbit said almost the same thing a few weeks back, yet he's still in the Tory Party. Some student nobody has ever heard of says it, and he gets thrown out of the party. In other words, only say things that Call Me Dave doesn't approve of if you're absolutely certain he's scared of you. And he wonders why there's no enthusiasm for the prospect of a Tory government, despite the misrule of the current shower of shit?
Isn't it time for the Tory Party to start actually representing Tories over Europe in any case? Most Tories that I've met - I have no party allegiance at all, in case anyone's wondering - want us out of the EU altogether, yet CMD doesn't want to know. He just meekly talks about "re-negotiating" our relationship instead of calling a spade a spade. It's pathetic.
"Bunny"
Are you really called "Bunny"? I thought only homophile figures in Wilde or Coward plays were called "Bunny" - along with New England preppies in the 1970s.
Love it.
He sounds rather nice to me and you are being a bit of a meany crushing his youthful idealism beneath your mighty boot . He has the right idea after all and we need his sort in the Party .
(I think its quite appalling if he has been expelled what sort of Nazi organisation are we that the young cannot make a mistake here and there. Poor poor show indeed )
1) He didn't say vote UKIP, he said, "If you want this vote Conservative, if you want that vote UKIP. I want that. You make up your own mind".
2) What the hell has Farage's, or any MEP's expenses got to do with this? We all it's the biggest gravy train since gravy trains were invented. That's why we want rid of it. We aren't voting for the cleanest party, we're voting for the party that will do the biggest clean up of all by abolishing the whole damn thing.
3) It's the Euro's. They're irrelevant to domestic policy. People do not vote the same way in the Euro's as they do for domestics. IT'S OUR EU POLICY REFERENDUM.
4) We do get it Iain. It's about party discipline, loyalty etc. What you don't get is that we don't care. Some things are of more importance than party loyalties. This is one of them.
Now, this is explicitly a Tory blogsite, where the likes of me come to spy wha' t'enemy's thinkin'.
Yet a full third of the preceding comments seem to be explicitly UKIP or so far anti-EU as to be outside existing Tory policies.
Does this mean that any future Tory administration, like the Major government before it, will be bogged down in this self-defeating, self-consuming, self-obsessed, internecine bloodshedding? Surely the Great British Public should be warned.
Beyond that, what amazes is that there are enough deluded post-adolescents at York to form a Tory Association.
* Re SIMON LEWIS. I respect your view, however like many Tories who have doubts about Cameron, I have doubts about Farage, but like the Tories we have all learned to put our commitment to our organisation above those doubts. The party is greater than the man.
Rebel Saint:We live (thankfully) in a democracy. People may vote how they like and advocate which party they like.
However, it's not reasonable for an office holder in one party to advocate voting for another party.
If you like another party's policies better than your own you have two choices: either argue within your party for it to adopt those policies or join the other party.
Not surprised -York Conservative Students have form/history on this sort of thing.
I know -I had the privillege of chairing the area students in the 90s
Ah, takes me back. I was briefly a Chairman of University of York Federation of Conservative Students in the 1980s. I rather think back then our line was outright war with Europe rather than just leaving the EEC. UKIP? Pah! Wimps.
I'm sorry but this is ridiculous, he expressed a valid opinion. Have you been on the conservatives website and checked their policy on europe??! http://www.conservatives.com/Policy/Where_we_stand/Europe.aspx
Nothing substantial. If Cameron wants decentralise power, give power back to people etc. We need to leave Europe. Or it will never happen.
There is no direction on Europe whatsoever. Poor Dan, the only one trying and doing the job right.
A real shame as Ralph is a very good Chairman
Has the Tory party been to the same school of "self destruct" as NuLabour. DC's vague policies on Europe are a shallow attempt to appease voters, but you can't have it both ways.
Well done to this young, now ex "Tory Student Leader". The Conservatives need more people like this and less like Ms Dorries.
Didn't this Buckle gut notice what happened to a donor to the Conservative party and poarty member who said vote for UKIP? he was booted out. This chap didn't think it through, did he?
I think most commenters have missed the point....
He can advocate any political position he wants on Europe from his position in the Tory party, even leaving it!
The problem is that he over stepped the mark my explicitly calling on people to vote for another party.
For that Iain is quite right, he should be reprimanded.
I have had a stream of abusive posts on here. Fair enough, but if you're going to slag me off, at least have the guts to put your name to your words. Cowards.
People seem to be forgetting that Ralph is definitely NOT a UKIP supporter: he, and most of the York Tories (and most of the party membership...), just believe that the Conservative party should be more Eurosceptic. If the Conservative party showed clear Eurosceptic credentials, then he, and the rest of us, would support the Conservative Party in full. He is proud to be Conservative and it pains him to have to give support UKIP in the euro elections, but Euroscepticism should be a basic in the Tory party and we believe this should change. What was he supposed to do?
@ Unsworth: Look at our Constitution if you want to know what kind of Conservatives we are. We are ones that support "free speech", "Conservative ideals and thinking" and being "affiliated to the National Party". We are not Conservative Future lackeys - The University of York Conservative and Unionist Association is NOT a branch Conservative Future.
So it has come down to a Tory being evicted from the Tory party for preaching Tory policies by a Tory leader who preaches non-Tory policies?
Norman Tebbit, your party needs you.
I'm going to remain anonymous since I'm a member of the Conservative Party and don't want to be seen to endorsing another party, when things like this show it is dangerous to do so.
I need only quote ToryBear to say what I feel:
"Perhaps Buckle could have been more guarded with his comments but lets not forget that UKIP only exists due to the failure of the Conservative Party to listen to it's members views."
That's entirely correct. UKIP get votes, and I hope they will continue to, because the upper echelons of the party think they know best, and ignore the wishes of the grassroots.
You know what? Cameron and his modernising, centrist tw*t friends (not you, Iain) can f*ck off. They have so little history of the Conservative party - most of them have only been MPs 8-12 years, why the f*ck do they think they know more than someone like Tebbit? If Cameron is a good PM, so be it, good luck to him, but right now, he is nothing. Will Iain Duncan Smith be remembered in 50 years time? No. Michael Howard? More likely, but still a resounding no. David Cameron is nothing yet.
The Conservative party needs to listen to its grassroots or lose them. Frankly I'd rather we kicked Cameron out on June 6th 2010.
Thanks for telling us, Iain, as we otherwise would have never known! You are scared stiff about the outcome on June 4. Stop worrying, let the people decide it's called democracy - what little there is in the anti-democratic EU.
You tell 'em, Iain.
Guido and Old Holborn report that the Home Secretary has been summoned to a magistrates court on June 24th.
Old Holborn LinkGuido LinkAbout time! I hope more of the same is to come to those who are afraid of doing the decent thing and resigning until their name(s) is (are) cleared.
Music to these ears which have grown tired over Labour's troughing, and then shirking the blame.
I don't think the student in question should have advocated voting for UKIP, especially as he was chairman of the York Conservatives. An incredibly stupid thing to do - he should have seen this coming.
Have an opinion by all means, nobody wants you to have otherwise, but when you're in a position of responsibility, you have to ACT responsibly.
And at the end of the day it is just a bloody posh students club anyway, so who cares? Very few students will want to vote for UKIP anyway. At least not the sane ones.
Having waded through all the comments - it's clear that if he wanted to urge voters to vote UKIP then he should be in their party not the Tories.
What is so complicated about that?
If he wants to change Tory policy to be more like UKIP's then that is a different matter - but he made his voting recommendations very clear.
As this is largely a non-story about someone no one has heard of - I suspect that this post is the target of an organised comment-war.
81 comments and counting - must be one of Iain's highest in days if not weeks.
Well, now that Ralph has been booted out of his own Party, it’s easy enough to see who grassed him up to Iain Dale’s Diary and the like.
Great to see that UKIP's foppish Gawain is with you there in the new consensus of the anti-EU right - until of course there is the chance to give each other a kicking.
But then he knew so little about the EU and the EP that he could, with a presumably straight face, type “even if the parliament did have important decisions to make, UK MEPs make up less than 10% of the chamber, making changing anything incredibly difficult.”
Anyone who cannot understand a political system operating along something other than purely national grounds probably shouldn’t have had the job to start with.
Iain, I have to say, credit to you.
I have thoroughly enjoyed this blog piece.
Yes its created debate.
But that's your job---create thought and debate.
Congrats
@Malcolm Redfellow,
Post-adolescent? That's a bit strong isn't it, old-thing? These young Conservatives do amazing things you know. They say so themselves so it must be true. And they understand the importance of being well-spoken, it seems. How that Speaker Martin must have vexed them with his atrocious accent. Dreadful little man.
Good for Buckle,how else is a tory supposed to get the message across to a party that won't listen to the electorate.This is the eu elections don't forget,the only chance for us to show our anti eu thinking.I mean it's not as if it means anything,meps are just like the uk parliament,mere figureheads and obsolete.
But is he thinking what everyone else is thinking?Problem is many down on the ground don't quite trust Dave and Billy on this one given their "limp wrist" approach to Lisbon.But hey lets see what the all important voters think on June 4th.
I read this blog and the comments religiously, but rarely offer an opinion, but here goes:
Cameron has undone most of the good work he has done this weekend. Especially now - should young student politicians and old party stalwarts untainted by scandal be pushed out of the fold? No, not when the Conservative Party will not give an unconditional guarantee on EU referenda as the majority of the electorate want. In the absence of absolute clarity on this subject, party members have only their own views and consciences to guide them and those that would be guided by them on how to vote in the European elections.
It is a gross tactical error to sack this young man, as it helps to forward the case that the talk of a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty is just eyewash and a distraction from the expense scandal; and where does that leave the Conservative Party regarding Norman Tebbitt? Many over-45s will not see him not as a silly old fossil who needs putting out to pasture, but as a party loyalist of long-standing, deserving of the greatest respect.
It’s time to stop equivocating: referenda or bust.
This is a complete over reaction!
Mr Dale, are you still a supporter of the Better Off Out campaign?
www.tfa.net/betteroffout
Iain - you are right on this one. If someone is an office holder in a party they should not support another party - it's as simple as that. UKIP is not just a lobbying organisation or think tank, it is another political party.
If you want mix and match your politics and your voting habits, don't be an office holder...
As someone who studied at York I find it shocking that something ever-so-slightly-but-not-really interesting has happened there. Things very rarely get heated there, an incredibly sedate place.
When I was there I opened a door for David Davis, true story.
Lady Astor, by using the word "still" you imply that I once was. I wasn't.
Iain is right if you are part of a team you advocate for that team. If you want to advocate for another, leave and join that other.
Can all commentators at least get their facts right please?
"As you may have guessed I favour the latter and would encourage you to do the same, but the decision is up to you."
However you swing it, that is a call for people to vote UKIP. Get that clear. That is something Tebbit stopped short of doing - maybe because Tebbit (shock) understands politics, which Buckle doesn't appear to. Tebbit was allowed to stay after a tongue-lashing. Stuart Wheeler, who went too far, was kicked out. So has Buckle been. That's fine. It's consistent. And it's only a political party. It's not as though losing membership of it is the end of the world!
If Buckle had a spark of honour and wanted to vote UKIP, he should have resigned, said why and become one of the great non-aligned, like me. Then he could have done what he liked, and voted for whom he liked. While a member of a party and an elected official of it, he had a duty to support it in an election and encourage others to. But maybe he didn't quite understand that. I'll be charitable and assume he's a bit naive.
I'm sorry to see that you've had such abuse Iain, I thought it was a good post, and you were fully justified in what you said.
Can I please also declare that I am considering voting Libertas at the European elections, although I am not yet firmly decided and I may still draw . This is not a pro-Tory reply. It is about the ethics of politics, which Buckle has broken.
Great lesson in life for young Buckle. Imagine, say, the Sales Director (Europe) for Coca-Cola telling everyone to drink Pepsi. He'd be out in a matter of hours.
On a not unrelated topic: the London Evening Standard is reporting that Julie Kirkbride, MP for Bromsgrove, not only employed her brother as a nanny (and let him live in and run a business from her constituency home, as well as charging his Internet kit to MP's expenses) she also employed her sister as her secretary for £12,000/annum, despite the sister living in Devon.
What disgusts me is that Julie COULD HAVE GIVEN A LOCAL PERSON A JOB instead of making the taxpayer pay salaries and "expenses" to her entire family - herself, husband, brother, sister.
Caucus sessions are brilliant. Me laddo dropped a bollock on his buckle - or buckled on his bollock; either way - as Nelson Muntz would say 'Ha Ha'.
The point here is that Ralph was given a platform in the student press, along with the heads of other political student groups, to put forward the view of their party prior to the elections in June.
Ralph used the outlet to put forward his own personal views on why people should vote for UKIP.
He is entitled to his personal view, but in this case it conflicts utterly with the views of the organisation he is meant to lead.
If he wanted to make such comments public, he should have first stood down from his role within the Party and joined UKIP.
Christian, Bang on.
Iain
For Dave to have proved so slippery on EPP-then this.Makes you wonder about Blair 2 just a smidgen doesn't it?
People should be careful given the nunber of prime seats about to come on to the market.
It would have been enough to ask him to step down from his office, expelling him from the party is incredibly overzealous.
The result of this could be that many other decent, hard working members of that Association leave the party in protest, whereas asking him to stand down would have sufficed.
Also there is the point raised above that York University is incomaprably superior to the 'dough school' attended by the proprietor of this blog. Especially inpressive is the classical style of the buildings. After all, it was the Roman who invented concrete, wasn't it?
Jim, I applied to York and got accepted, but chose UEA. What does that tell you? Mind you, that was in 1980!
I think that many people (conservative voters, party members and dare I say councillors) think that the wasteful undemocratic political monstrosity that is the EU warrants voting for the party that really wants out rather than a party that can't make up it's mind and whose historic behaviour with regard to the EU is shameful. And is it really so bad so go against the party line and hold office? Dan Hannan goes seriously against the grain of what Dave thinks on Europe, yet he holds the position of MEP. These people are conservatives, in the true sense of the word. It is up to the Party to represent them, not for them to relay the waffly party line that they don't believe in.
Some people have said that Tebbit got off lightly because Cameron was scared of him. How obvious is it that Cameron is scared of UKIP, and people in the party who actually hold conservative views?
I will be voting UKIP, if only that I can have the quiet satisfaction of some people making a nuisance of themselves in the flashy Brussels chamber.
"If you can't understand that, then I feel sorry for you."
Ooh! hark at him!
Good for the student, and I am going to do just the same.
It isn't even as if Cameron needs to promise a referendum; we should be quite satisfied with a firm undertaking to leave the EU when he gets in.
@ York Tory
So this young man is sufficiently arrogant (and stupid) to believe that his behaviour in urging others to vote for a particular party - which is not his espoused party - is perfectly acceptable?
What are his ethics, then? Is this the behaviour of a decent and honourable man? Probably in your book it is. There are others however who have rather higher personal standards.
I'm really not impressed by the apologists for his duplicity. If he doesn't like the current policy he has a choice, stay and argue his case from within - or quit and campaign publicly on whatever platform coincides with his present view.
But would the York Tories be so relaxed if one of their number, on the basis of his/her personal views, publicly advocated voting for the BNP - or called for a Fatwa against the Archbishop of Canterbury? Possibly they would.
Iain,
1980? I too began my university studies in 1980. I'm not saying whether I ever completed them or not. A fine institution it was that I attended, sometimes, founded on the authority of a Papal Bull from Pope Alexander VI no less. Quality. Weren't his children scallywags though?
AS for today's students, well, they'll let any dross in now, it seems.
As chairman of UWIC Conservative Future, if I were to suggest people voted for another party I'd expect to be expelled. Silly boy.
I wrote a comment before but it wasn't accepted. Anyway...
I think you're right, Iain, that he should be thrown out of the party, but I think this student is right in wanting to support UKIP.
What is really disappointing is the need for UKIP. The main problem is that the Tory party, whilst there are many very sound people, is infiltrated by a fifth column of pro European Quislings. With only one vote in the Euro poll your vote is just as likely to be supporting a europhile. It is far safer to vote UKIP because they do what they say on the tin! Any analysis of the backgrounds of many Tory candidates will expose their pro European backgrounds which they have so carefully hidden.
@ ukipwebmaster said...
"In answer to Jabba the cat.
Glad you've brought that up.
Most of Nigel's 'expenses' are for the cost of staff and are on a par with Dan Hannan's.
Perhaps you should try to push another narrative?"
Well that attempt at a deflective answer suggests quite clearly that Farage and his pygmies are on the inside, so to speak, with all four trotters and snout firmly in the MEP expenses trough. Nil point.
camerons a wimp to support kirkbride and tebbit [no balls].and then to sack this kid is laughable.
But Tebbit wasm't expelled. Just to big a beast to fight I guess.
Hey, wait a minute guys. It's not as if he is inciting violence against fluffy kittens.
Dave was speaking to me (from an incredibly small box) today about bottom up democracy.
From the venom unleashed on Mr Arbuckle today, anyone would think Dave didn't mean what he said.
Of course, if the Tories actually mentioned the "E" word now and again, perhaps the disenfranchised would do what we are all expected to do and put the cross where we are told.
Tickets to the Auto Da Fe, to be held in York are available on line. Bring your own faggots and rotten fruit.
Norman was a bad boy for saying what he did about the UKIP, it seems to be catching. But he's always been one to speak his mind, in a Duke of Edinburgh kind of way.
I see Ms Kirkbridge is under the media spotlight about her expenses.
To be fair, if her sister has actually worked for the money, at least she was compensated for her time, which is quite precious.
It's not as if it's a free iPhone for nothing.
Sky News Link
I think he has a very good future, now that he isn't doing as others tell him to do.
More please
It seems that the vast majority of people on here are anti-EU Tories. Obviously there's no way of telling whether this is an accurate cross-section of party views, but I'd be willing to put money on the fact that it is. So why won't the Party represent the views of their party? This is the perfect time to do it - They're highly unlikely to lose anyone to Labour at the moment, they'd lose the rabid europhiles to the Lib Dems (although I doubt that there are that many of them), and they'd demolish UKIP and possibly the BNP. All of which would be good for Party unity, not to mention the country.
Re. the student: he's a student. He's hardly an 'office holder'. He should be quietly reprimanded (by a frontbencher, on account of the fact that he's the Chair), and that should be that. Free thinking should be encouraged. This is hardly the end to whipping that Cameron tells us about.
This student is obviously entitled to his views, whether one agrees with them or not. Iain, however, is totally correct in saying that his position as chairman of the York conservatives gave him a responsibility to put forward the conservative case, not that of another party. It is incredible that he chose to supoprt a vote for UKIP and I wonder how the chairmen of the other two parties used their opportunity to express their party political views or whether they expressed their own.
The conservatives are clearly divided on the EU issue and will remain so. Unfortunately, in my opinion, it is not a simple case of lets just leave the EU, as I feel a proper and responsible country-wide discussion about EU membership needs to take place giving the advantages and disadvanatges. The media rarely highlight the pros, but there are things we perhaps take for granted now (such as the right to travel freely throughout the EU for example) which may need to be addressed should we take the decision to leave the EU.
I personally am not in favour of closer European integration and part of the problem today is that we were denied a promised referendum by Gordon Brown on the next big piece of EU legislation which has caused huge resentment across the country and rightly so.
This anger has partly manifested itself in votes for UKIP mainly from traditional conservative party supporters. I feel Cameron's present stance is the most appropriate to take, but he should look to give the public a chance to vote on EU membership as a whole should the conservatives form the next government. This vote should be a free one where party politics do not confuse the argument and a full and proper debate held to enable the public to come to an educated conclusion. If the public were to vote to leave the EU then the consequences of that decision would rest with the public themselves. If they voted to remain part of the EU (perhaps with the promise of further referendums for new leglislation) then again that decision would have to be respected too.
This is an issue that invites division and causes strong feeling in the conservative party. Whichever way it swings from more sceptic to more pro there will always be those within the party who disagree. Regardless of this, if one wishes to hold a responsible position within the party, such as chairman, then that person should publicly express support for the party. If they cannot then they should resign that position. Politics is sometimes about compromise whether you like it or not.
Until the conservatives actually have a policy that is credible to millions of their supporters then UKIP are a viable alternative, I am a Conservative member but I will vote UKIP on the 6th June because the platrom for the EUROPEAN elections are not covered or even acceptably debated by my own party. I will not tow the line just because I am a member and nor should a student be removed from the party because he failed to say what people felt he should. I accept that in a position of leadership, actions like this can be damaging but rather than expell individual, I woulod prefer to look at why someone who obviously cares about the party decided to act the way they have.
People need to stop acting out of MINDLESS loyalties and remember that these are not mid term national election and that they are European elections, elections which the main partys are still pedalling a mandate based so little on Europe it is unfair.
Iain is, of course, technically correct, but (as is increasingly common) completely misses the point.
Cameron has completely betrayed his party on Europe. Most of his MEPs are a complete disgrace (Daniel Hannan being a rare exception). If he wants me to vote conservative he knows what he has to do: a rock solid promise of a referendum on the constitution, and a rock solid promise on leaving the EPP. We don't have the first, and it is highly debatable whether we have the second. Consequently I know exactly how I'm voting, and it certainly isn't conservative.
Iain,
Many thanks for not publishing my two previous comments. I wasn't sure whether I was going to vote UKIP but it's a definite now.
toodleoo!
Oxbridge prat:
I am not even sure that Iain has missed the point, I believe that lately he is attempting to 'do a guido' and wield even a tiny portion of power/influence in the form of political scalps.
Guido has an impressive list of people that have paid the price of his work, I wonder if Iain will be so chuffed with assasinating a student who, lets face it shares the views of thousands of Conservatives who like me have grown up without a fair debate on Europe and are seeing its impacts on a daily basis.
I will co nsider my position within the party if they continue with this uber-control and will consider my position as a daily reader of this blog if Iain doesnt start calming himself down.
The idea of letting MP's vote as they please doesn't seem to hold much water then.
Slight rebellion a la Tebbit and he's kicked out. I hope he joins UKIP and is successful with them.
How long did the idea of devolving power last? 2 hrs, 3 hrs? Cameron needs to be got rid of pronto. How could he ever speak on corruption should the need arise? He can't even attack Labour over expenses because he's just as bad. Hardly the way forward.
So do you think Norman Tebbitt should be chucked out of party too for daring to suggest voting for a different party in this unimportant election?
Why on earth are you commenting on some obscure student when so many more important issues need addressing anyway?
And what a ridiculously Stalinist comment about not having a future.
Simon - polling day is next Thurs the 4th not the 6th.
Just a gentle reminder to everyone its the 4th of June when you can release the UKIP....
Iain seems almost hell bent on 'doing a Guido' and claiming the political scalps of people, well done Iain be very proud!
He was not a member of Conservative future, still holds ideals similar to millions of Conservatives and is dismissed for saying what he is perfectly entitled to say. Utter disgrace.
I will consider my position in the party unless they loosen their control over what people can debate, particularily on Europe because I want to debate it but the major parties don't.
I will also consider my position as a regular reader of this blog as Iain is so out of touch sometimes its insane
Your Twitter: “Astonished at the number of blog commenters (SP) who seem to think it is OK for a local Tory chairman to encourage Tories to vote UKIP. Madness”
What is madness is for the Tories, or any Party, not to understand the deep deep loathing many people have that any mention of the EU has to be toned downed so as not to electrify ‘media’. Well, here’s the thing – this is our chance. I’m not a wibble wibble anti EU lunatic; I’m a person who has day to day evidence of how that unelected body (The EU Commission) has such control over laws that govern us. And now is my chance to send a warning to not just the party I would support in a UK general election, but all parties. I find no satisfaction in voting for UKIP – they’re a bunch of idiots and convicted fraudsters, but if they get a sizable vote, maybe, just maybe, something will get through. And that something is that we should have what we have been promised – a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.
I pose a question: What percentage of UK legislation enacted over the last 10 years was based on EU Directives? 75%? 80%?
Oh, yes. The *Student* Chairman should have known what was coming to him. I wonder what he’s studying – logic?
Your Country comes first.
Modern Politicians are becoming increasingly irrelevant. All Politicians since 1971 (The year Heath killed this country and committed treason) are almost certainly guilty of treason and sedition. Voting for any of the major parties in particular would be condoning these crimes.
What of course is never discussed is that Her Majesty has absolute power over Parliament, the people allow her that power and in turn we have the right to depose her and her members of Parliament.
Buy no one is ever taught that in school or elsewhere are they?
It will be completely pointless voting for any major party. The rage expressed by most of the voting population will pale into insignificance once they know what has really been happening over the last 30 odd years! They are now ready to listen!
Expect a very English revolution and quite soon! There will be no place for the modern method of governance.
Treason remains punishable by hanging. The only question is public or private?
The unfortunate thing about dismissing him from the party (rather extreme reaction I think, how about censure or reprimand?) is that it contradicts entirely the 4 consecutive articles Cameron had published in the Guardian today in regards modernisation of politics.
Surely this can be seen as a form of lack of tolerance and enforcement of conformism along party political lines which Cameron supposedly railed against this morning.
What do I care, I'm not a Tory, but as a swing voter it seems to be overly censorious of a young political candidate that has some passion for what he's doing, even if he was daft to say what many are thinking.
Simon Gibson, don't be so ridiculous. Up to you whether you read the blog or not but don't impugn motives to me which I do not have. Buckle was asked to write an article in his position as Tory chairman at York Uni. He chose the advise people to vote UKIP. Do you seriously think he should be allowed to do that with no consequence? Go figure.
Was Ralph's article written during a Hagueathon perhaps?
Or just a case of the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one?
europe europe europe, the death of the tory party,this party will split within 3 years....
He wrote the article before Cameron today said there should be a transfer of power 'from the EU to Britain'. Should this Ralph be re-instated as the leader has moved towards his view?
*puts popcorn back in cupboard*
Plato: very true it is the 4th thanks!!!
Iain: I totally believe that he should be allowed to express his opinions on the matter. This is especially true when discussing the European elections. Why should anyone have to follow thier party when the party offers them so little guidance on Europe. I highly suggest that in the build up to a general election he makes his views more balanced and accepts the wider Conservative vision but these are European elections! Are you so determined to support the party that you can accept limitations on free speech and not even see why he has expressed these view? Surely not
Should this young man be crucified for his honestly held beliefs?
Maybe he shouldn't have said what he did, but he's only a student politician; it shouldn't really matter what he says, and I doubt it would have persuaded anyone out there to switch from the Conservatives to UKIP.
I couldn't disagree with him more on Europe, but if he believes withdrawal would be in the best interests of our country, then he should be free to say so.
I wasn't aware collective responsibility extended to students at York University!
On an entirely different point: C'mon United!!! :)
Cameron is wrong, so wrong over Europe.
Cameron is in the wrong political party. Then again given that there is so little difference between New Con and New Lab, he and Blair could front either organisation and look the part.
It is not Buckle who should be given his marching orders it is Cameron.
I'm a member of the Tory party yet I would NEVER vote for the party at a European election (usually UKIP instead). I would always vote Tory at a general elecion and sometimes at a local election.
I wonder if I should be thrown out the party?
Simon, well, we must differ. it is unacceptable for someone who holds an office within the party to urge people to vote for a rival party. I cannot understand why you can't see that.
@ Simon Gibson
Yes, one can tell that you, too, are some sort of 'student' - or, as I tend to think, a victim of the State Education 'system'.
You're a member of Verwood Town Council, having 'gained' election, you say. Are you a Conservative Councillor, then? Your studies at Loughborough presumably do not impede your Council duties.
And you aver that you will not 'tow' the line? I wonder what the local Conservatives feel about that.
This 'student' was not turfed out because 'he failed to say what people felt he should'. He was thrown out because of his blatant duplicity.
Then you 'accept that in a position of leadership, actions like this can be damaging', but apparently regard his particular behaviour as not 'damaging'. Define 'leadership', then. At what point do such actions become damaging?
If this individual 'obviously cares about the party' why has he deliberately chosen to ask people to vote for another party? God alone knows why he has chosen to act the way he has. If you're interested why don't you ask him?
You seem to believe that those who disagree with this cretinous clown are 'acting out of MINDLESS loyalties'. Well, that's your view - do you have any supporting evidence? I don't suppose you might think that they quite simply do not agree with your opinions.
"They are European elections, elections which the main partys are still pedalling a mandate based so little on Europe it is unfair."
A) the plural is 'parties'.
B) It's peddling - as in selling, not bicycling.
C) 'Unfair'? Good grief! How very Harry Enfield. 'Fairness' is really not what life is about, as you may possibly discover.
I can accept your point totally when discussing notional politics from an official position within the Conservative party, even if the York Conservatives were a banch of Conservative future them perhaps I would be more agreeable but as it stand he is not in a position where he is bound by such stringent responsibility, freedom of speech must prevail here.
Do you not agree that with students, the topic of europe is very interesting because this generation have not been able to see an open debate on the issue and that UKIP can seem like an interesting alternative and when discussing European issues it is only fair that an anti-Europe Conservative should feel frustrated that these elections are not being used to discuss the real point of the elections.
I think the difference here is that many people see UKIP as a political party. Strictly speaking this is true of course. However, in practical terms, they are a single issue pressure group. Advocating a vote for them does not mean we want to see a UKIP government, it simply means we want the ISSUE they represent to be taken on board.
Incidentally, (forgot to add this to my last comment) there are no European political parties in the real sense - none of them will govern or determine anything. They're all just pressure groups. That's why I say the 'party line' doesn't exist.
Iain is defending party politics
Party Politics has put your grandchildren in trillions of debt, given the unelected untold power, stripped you of your civil liberties, is taxing you to death and has killed hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and children in the middle east. Whilst making their "members" multi millionaires
So don't vote for a party. I won't be. They've had their chance and done nothing but abused it.
They bribe, they cheat, they steal. They manipulate, they lobby and all the time, they get richer.
I look forward to your next trip to Israel Iain. Fully funded of course. By Israel. Like the last one.
The lad is right. I do not know of one Tory supporter who will be voting Tory in the Euro elections. This must mean that Cameron is NOT representative of the majority of Tory voters when it comes to Europe.
It is time that Cameron was straight with his party and told us exactly where he stands over a political European union. Until he does so I will certainly assume the worst and vote UKIP, he could easily stop thousands of Tories voting UKIP at a stroke by coming out agin a political union, the fact that he does not speaks volumes.
@ Unsworth
I am not a Conservative councillor, I am a member of the Conservative party who sits on my local council as an independent.
As a result I do not have to tow the party line and nor would I. I am a Conservative by ideals and like my fellow 'student' should not be bound by every line of the national leadership.
In this instance the leadership role in question is one of stimulating debate. If Iain was to make an appearance in a newspaper as a Conservative viewpoint I would expect him to say what he believes rather than what he thinks he should say, the same is true here.
Thanks for all the spelling tips, the education system really must have failed me!
Simon, are you being deliberately obtuse? Of course I say what I think, but I am representing myself, not the Conservative Party when I am on the media. I am not a chairman of anything, or a candidate. If I were I would feel duty bound to represent the party in public, especially in an election campaign, and especially when I was specifically invited to write an article on why people should vote Conservative in the Euro elections. If I then wrote an article suggesting people should vote UKIP I would have to accept the consequences.
Iain, you are right you should be able to say what you like when you are not in an elected position. I was not saying that you were.
Mr Buckle is not chairman of any Official national Conservative group and as such he should not be duty bound to follow. Yes, he deviated from what he was envisaged to say but that fundamentally is his right.
@Simon Gibson,
Once is a typo but twice is a mistake. I make enough of both myself so in the spirit of one sufferer trying to help another, it's 'toe the line'.
Yes he is chairman of an officially recognised Conservative Association. By your logic if David Cameron's local association chairman urged people to vote UKIP you'd think that was perfectly acceptable. It isn't, and frankly it is idiotic to defend his behaviour in the way that you are doing.
Just seen this report on David Boothroyd - the relentless poster of Labour propagandaHe's been banned from Wikipedia for trolling David Cameron's profile.
HAHAHAHA
HEFFER TO STAND AGAINST HASELHURST?!
How marvellous.
Iain Dale,
Could you not be spending your time more fruitfully than arguing over the fate of an obscure student Tory with a teenage Tory councillor?
Perhaps you will suggest he is thrown out of the party as well?
Or you could be a bit more indulgent of youthful naivity?
The fact is that many people who will vote Tory in the general election will not vote for them in these Euro elections. I hardly think it's a big deal.
Hmm shouldnt give students the vote until they are 25!!!!!
Upbeatskeptic's (2.01pm) hit the nail on the head in that why do so many Conservative supporters lend their vote to UKIP in the Euro elections? Just after the last elections, I spoke to a defeated Conservative MEP. She felt one of the principle causes of her losing was that so many Conservative activists voted UKIP and she cited many Councillors and Constituency Officers in this.
Quite rightly the chairman of York University Future had to be expelled. But for every one Conservative activivist who shows his/her hand, there are 100 who will quietly place their cross on the UKIP box and resume supporting the Conservatives on June 5th. A few will be stupid or mendacious enough to vote BNP.
The Conservative Party has got itself to blame for this mess. Last year we were offered a rigged ballot for our candidates with sitting MEPs being given a free run- I do not believe one MEP was deselected. The actual results showed how many of the sitting MEPs were perceived as either so pro-european/pro EPP that we wanted them to go but the gerrymandering by the then party chairman ensured there was no upset. For myself I am suspicious enough of these MEPs to speculate as top whether they will work some relationship with the EPP after June 4th.
As said, it is OK for you Iain. You have the excellent Daniel Hannan as top of your list. It is not often I want to live in the South east-this is one of these occasions.
As it is I have a list headed by the pro-european Sir Robert Atkins,the excellent Saj Karim and the perpetual Jacqui Foster whose views on the EPP I find somewhat vague. As she's worked most of the last 12 years in Brussels, I suspect she's pro.
In effect I cannot support two of the three candidates on the North West list. So quietly I shall lend my vote to UKIP
Don't take Simon on, Iain.
If the Chief Executive of Curry's told people to buy from Comet instead, could he realistically expect to hold on to his job?
It's impossible to argue that Buckle was right or justified in what he wrote, unless you A)don't understand plain English, B) are deliberately missing the point, or C) are a troll.
@Simon Gibson
You're confusing two points. He's perfectly entitled to hold a personal view on leaving the EU, He is not perfectly entitled to advocate voting for another party. There is a gulf of difference between the two and this point has been made many times now in addition to many other valid points.
MORE IMPORTANTLY, if you don't understand why Cameron isn't talking about the EU more they you're either unbelievably naive, or not particularly bright. There is not doubt the party is still divided on europe, it probably always will be. If he talks about europe more it splits the party and turns the voters off. It becomes the only issue the press want to talk about and before long we're the same old Tories banging on about europe again. I concede its very important but there is MUCH more to the Tory party than Europe. We need to show this in government before starting a pandora's box of a debate.
Cameron has very good political instincts, if people like you were in charge, the party would have been consigned to opposition for another generation.
Rarely, if ever, until now have I felt sorry for Iain Dale.
Initially he made a valid point: that young Buckle was given space, as a representative of a valid political Association, to represent the Party view. Buckle blew it.
Whether subsequent bell, book and candle were necessary is open to question.
What was then incredible was the Gadarene swine, all claiming to be the only true Tories, rushing to declare their hostility to a central plank of Party policy, to the extent that they were jumping ship in the EU elections, and feeding themselves to the sharks.
Quite frankly, the misrepresentation of the EU that seems to be going on in the minds of such types reminds me of those weirdos who tell me the answer to all the mysteries is in Joanna Southcott's box. And she doesn't even play cricket.
Get. This. Straight.No British Government, short of being individually and collectively sectioned, is going to leave the EU. End. Of. Story.Even going public with such a daft notion would lead to a collapse of sterling and a declaration of UDI by the City of London and large tranches of British industry. Customs posts and exchange control at Dover and Derry. The Home Counties would probably secede. If nothing else, the gloats of the self-basting Salmond would be immense.
Put the loonies back into the padded cells before they do any more damage.
Then, as a minor side-show, we had the "Independent" Councillor declaring himself a true Tory. In my day, that was decried as "fellow-travelling", and contemned accordingly. Did Cllr Gibson fully explicate that to his constitents? Why was he ashamed of putting "Conservative" on the ballot paper? What am I missing here?
Ronzer, I didn't actually say he should be thrown out. Read my original post. I said his fellow students should bring him to book.
Isn't it miserable the number of supposedly Tory commenters come out to support a Tory branch chairman who thinks it's alright to call on people to vote UKIP. If he'd said the same for Labour, or Lib/Dems, or anyone else, everyone would be down his throat. What's the difference?
What's worse is how someone so young could be so compeletely sucked dry of youth, energy, ideals, imagination, love, passion and intelligence to support the party of bile-filled Telegraph readers.
He is a dope and should learn to grow up.
All political parties are coalitions. He cannot be a relatively senior member of such a coalition and then say vote for somebody else.
I am anti EU BTW and see no problem in us being out of it.
The perils of a blogger......
I have enjoyed following this blog post so much today, I didn't get round to writing one myself!!!
It has been fascinating following posting after posting saying that a post holder in a political party has the right to urge people to vote for another party.
Iain, credit to you for being patient.... no need for a Daley Dozen today----this posting has been the day for me. Great entertainment.
"I didn't actually say he should be thrown out."
No, but you quite clearly think that was the correct course of action:
"Mr Buckle has just been expelled from the party. Quite right too."
Ridiculously draconian action towards a student nobody.
Presumably this also means you think any future MP planning to vote for another party's motion in the Commons, against the Tory Whips, should expect a similar and parallel response?
Publicly disagree with the almighty Party on any vote, and you're out.
he was not 'expelled', he resigned after being suspended by the party
http://www.nouse.co.uk/2009/05/26/york-tories-chair-resigns-after-ukip-pledge/
He is a very nice lad, utterly undeserving of the treatment dished out to him
JD Ridiculous analogy which doesn't hold water.
Malcom Redfellow
It is a myth and sadly a myth that has now become almost accepted that the UK can not survive outside of a political Union with Europe. It is total and utter tripe.
The majority of countries on the planet are not governed by Brussels, why should Britain be any different? Life will go on, business will go on, trade will go on, people will go on to succeed on this Island even if we have no political ties with the European mainland.
If Cameron does not state unequivocally that he will repeal the Lisbon Treaty, more and more Tories will defect to the UKIP camp.
At some point, a tipping point will be reached, when Cameron will have to decide whether he is absolutely for rolling back the treaty or not.
Cameron is surely aware that the majority of people do not support adoption of the Lisbon Treaty. If he thinks eurosceptics are not watching this space with a keen eye, he is gravely mistaken.
Or, JD, how about whips telling members to vote for the opposition? Because, THAT is the parallel.. If you think that is acceptable, then you are a bit lacking..
Well, you can save your sarcastic pity, Mr Dale.
If you can't see that the behaviour of the Tories was heavy handed in this case, then I feel genuinely sorry for you.
Caught-up in the excitement of Cameron's purges as you people who hysterically scream 'kick out the traitor' have clearly become, I suppose this knee-jerk nonsense was inevitable.
So I wish the Tories good luck. After this performance it seems they're/we're desperately going to need it. Utterly pathetic.
The York Tories have always tended to be very independent minded, in the rugged tradition of Yorkshire common sense conservatism that seems quite foreign to the kow-towing of university Conservative Future organizations that exist elsewhere. Godfrey Bloom MEP comes to campus almost every year and gets a better reception than most of the parliamentary dullards who are kind enough to come up from London. On this evidence, Mr Buckle has a fine future ahead of him.
Iain, I'm a college (not university) student myself, and while I favour the Liberal Democrats, I totally agree that Ralph Buckle crossed the line here, and that it is right that action was taken.
Simply put, if the party you support places you into a position of influence, via which you are expected to "market" the party; to "sell" it to the voters, then you are expected to respect the mandate of that position.
To encourage someone to vote for another party is, simply put, goofy. It's really is that simple. Indeed, I would have resigned the position before publication, as a matter of principle.
However, I truly believe the action taken against Ralph was extreme. He's young - though older than me of course - and fresh. Down the line he could have been an asset to the party.
I think Cameron should have personally intervened and given Ralph a firm talking to, explaining the importance of his position and that any party office demands greater respect.
In my opinion, instant dismissal was excessive. Ralph was in the wrong, I totally agree, but he's only young, and clearly has a lot to learn. I would imagine his fellow students are feeling pretty annoyed right now, and that can only be a bad thing for the Conservatives; a swell of UKIP supporters in the "next generation" of party activists may be more damaging than perhaps he calculated.
Regardless, I still find myself in partial agreement with you. I do however wish him the best of luck with UKIP, assuming that is his destination. No talent should be wasted and all opinions should be listened to, whether later judged to be of value or not.
Malcolm Redfellow:
Leaving the EU wouldn't be the apocalyptic disaster you envisage. Most people are perfectly in favour of free trade and free movement of skilled labour, both of which can be achieved without the ever encroaching political union. That situation would actually make Britain a more competitive place to set up shop as we wouldn't be subject to ridiculous interference such as the upcoming Working Time Directive.
But you're right; no foreseeable government is going to take us out. And yet we get the vast majority of grassroots conservatives (most people on here are) who say that they want us to leave. Majority of the Party want it; nay, majority of the people want it! Why can't we have a party which represents our views?!
Iain: a majority/large minority of commentators here seem to advocate voting UKIP. The scale of the debate shows a lot of passion out there which is entirely ignored by the Party. What's your view on membership/party line? Are you honestly surprised at the amount of party members/supporters who are going to vote for a different party at the European Elections?
Cannot see what the discussion is here. The bloke used his position in the Conservative Party to advocate voting for someone else. The rest is inevitable. He must have known that or else he is a fool and the mystery is why he was in that position in the first place.
I think the political establishment are having a 'Ratner' moment....
Iain's views notwithstanding, it seems to me that the Conservatives have scored a real own goal here.
I think Buckle did the right thing for the same reason that I think the Whips should be abolished (if not Parties entirely)...
Conscience above Party;
Issues above Party;
Nation above Party.
I begin to have doubts about the honesty of CMD's recent speech - a shame, since it had temporarily convinced me that the Tories finally "got it".
Even so, even before this fracas my line was that although I would support the Tories in a GE, I could only support Ukip in euro-elections unless and until the Conservatives join IND/DEM -- and I wonder why they need to form a new 'opposition group' when IND/DEM already exists? Maybe the Conservatives aren't really the 'Opposition' in Europe at all?
We need more integrity from Call Me Dave, before he can expect unswerving loyalty from grassroots members like Buckle.
There's not many like Dan Hannan among the Tory MEPs (see clip 2 below).
June 4th is your best chance to let Dave know how you feel about paying forty million quid a day for the privilege having legislation handed down from the EU.
1) Daniel Hannan on how the European Parliament is becoming totalitarian2) Welcome to your GovernmentRalph Buckle was right about something, if you want to be controlled by the EU Totalitarian State vote Tory,
if you want us to have control of our own country then vote UKIP.
It's the only referendum we're likely to get.
Sounds to me like he represents a lot of Tories----the EU thing is crap---we voted for a common market and thats what we should have .
If HM government wants us to be one of the United States of Europe then do the decent and democratic thing and ask us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Will we get a vote under the premiership of Cameron? not a chance!!
Isn't it time for the Tory Party to start actually representing Tories over Europe in any case? Most Tories that I've met - I have no party allegiance at all, in case anyone's wondering - want us out of the EU altogether, yet CMD doesn't want to know. He just meekly talks about "re-negotiating" our relationship instead of calling a spade a spade.
The topic of europe is very interesting because this generation have not been able to see an open debate on the issue and that UKIP can seem like an interesting alternative and when discussing European issues it is only fair that an anti-Europe Conservative should feel frustrated
University is not the real world - far from it. Advocating that all ills and errs there, should lead to party expulsions is just vindictive and callous.
This is the real empathy to "here and now" conservative executive. Be well advised unless CMD gets on his horse with conviction conservatisim he may get a fright- ask Norman "the conqueror " Tebbit
Expulsion from the Party is too good for him.
He must be sentenced to post a daily blog on Conservative Home for the next 12 months.
May the Lord have mercy on his soul!!!!!!
It seems that the only way Cameron's conservatives will ever take note of the feelings of the vast majority of their natural supporters vis a vis the EU is if they are given a nasty shock in these elections. The best way to do that is to vote for UKIP.
The Conservatives have not come out particularly well in the MPs expenses scandal, Cameron himself is far from whiter than white, and the voters may well prefer to send him a message not to take them for granted by voting for UKIP.
It would also be great to see Labour beaten into fourth place by UKIP.
IN a nutshell Cameron has got to produce a substantive EU policy and stop avoiding the issue.
""His fellow Tory students at York" might think, like the majority of Conservatives/ex-conservatives, exactly as he does."
Indeed we do.
Even some self-proclaimed wets in the association don't like the EU one bit. David Davis gave us a very unconvincing defence of the EU in his civil liberties speech last week, which was basically "the standard answer is that the benefits are better than the negatives [he did not pursue this], the problem is that lots of people are afraid they'll lose their jobs if we leave the EU". Which sounds a lot like "I know you're right, but it's politically risky and we don't have the guts or ability to explain to people why their fears are unfounded".
I was surprised by Ralph's article. But to give some idea of student's attitude to the EU in general, the equivalent Lib Dem piece was basically the Libs trying to portray themselves as eurosceptic, going on about how "ukip and the conservatives agree with us on the need for reform"! The Labour one was a malicious bunch of slanders - what do you expect from the McBride party? The only argument offered against the liberals was "their MEPs voted against a ban on seal products" - a wee bit weak.
Regrettably, I'll be splitting my vote between UKIP and the Tories on June 4th.
(just a thought - I ought to add that I've never spoken to the guy and am only a first year. he just reflected something like how most of us feel).
Such a shame. I'd rather have a free-thinker like this as an MP than you, Iain.
We need to vote UKIP in the EU elections. It doesn't matter who becomes MEPs because they make no difference, so we might as well use the election to send a signal to Cameron:
Secession from the EU is popular! There are votes in it!
Fraser Nelson explains why there is no inconsistency with Tories voting UKIP in the EU elections:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlCJEfB5Juw
Change in Europe.
Cameron is pretty ambivalent over a referendum - weasel words not promises.
At least with UKIP we have a promise.
@ Glynne said...
"At least with UKIP we have a promise."
Indeed we do. Farage and his merry band of political pygmies promise to keep their snouts and trotters firmly in the MEP expenses trough without any intention whatsoever of any public accountability.
UKIP is just an excuse to raid the public purse in Brussels under the hypocritical claim of fighting the EUSSR from within. It is all, in the firm light of day, just a load of bollocks by another tribe of thieving hoons.
Cameron isn't helping by equivocating on Europe. He needs to say outright that the Lisbon Treaty is dead and buried regardless of anything, without ifs or buts. If he did that and promised to re-patriot powers from Europe to Parliament he could obliterate UKIP at a stroke.
At the moment, I like what Cameron is saying on a lot of issues, but the most important issue is clearly Europe because most of our laws are made there, now. We need a clear and unambiguous line on Europe.
Until we get that, UKIP are looking very attractive for anyone not lucky enough to have Daniel Hannan as their MEP.
Mr Dale,
You may be interested in Ralph Buckle's resignation and clarification letter[1] which is posted on the York Tories website.
Regards
[1] http://yorktories.info/news-item.php?stamp=1243463699
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