I feel a profound sense of both anger and sadness having listened to the Speaker's statement. Sadness that he refused to address any of the Points of Order and anger that he made no mention of hos own plans. All he did was announce a plan to call a meeting of party leaders. It's window dressing. He showed no sign that he recognises the parlous state of his own standing in the House of Commons. He said he would not allow a debate on the motion put down by Douglas Carswell and fourteen other MPs and it had to be a substantive motion. David Davis asked how a backbencher could put down a substantive motion. The Speaker had to take advice from the clerks who told the Speaker to say that it was a matter for the government, not the chair. David David had asked to see the Speaker today to ask advice on this matter privately. The Speaker refused to see him.
Susan Kramer asked if the government might provide an opposition day debate. The Speaker said this was not a matter for him.
But the most wounding intervention of all came from a very unexpected source. Sir Patrick Cormack, a great defender of the rights of Parliament, asked him to reflect on his position and urged him to understand that in terms of crisis, our Parliamentary status is similar to that of the country in the Norway debate in 1940. For those whose historical knowledge is not quite as good as Sir Patrick's, the Chamerlain government won a vote of confidence, but Chamberlain still resigned. It was the debate in which Leo Amery shouted: "In the name of God, go!"
The Speaker displayed his won inability to do his job today. His lack of command of parliamentary procedure was self evident. Surely no one, not even the most tribal of Labour MPs, could deny that Mr Speaker signed his own political death warrant today.
Make no mistake, this motion will be debated one way or another. Parliament has got to reassert its own sovereign rights. The government must provide time for it to be debated, preferably for a full day.
Adam Boulton described this afternoon as a low point in the history of our Parliamentary democracy. If anything that is an understatement. The people of this country just won't stand for what has happened today, and I wouldn't be surprised to see marches on Parliament soon if we are not careful.
UPDATE: The line from one or two Labour MPs is that Michael Martin is a "scapegoat". Unbelievable.
53 comments:
Marches on Parliament - there's one scheduled for this Saturday, apparantley.
Couldn't agree with you more, Iain. I am in despair.
We have a new Labour Party song then
I predict a riot
Totally agree with you Iain.
Disgrace.
An arrogant man....so out of touch.
He must go now
Scapegoat? HAHAHAHAHA! When it comes down to it, he is responsible for what the Fees Office do, even though he has no say in it, right?
Plus his own record in expenses isn't too rosy either...
Question is, have those Labour MPs backing the Speaker got something they want hidden?
Labour say it's a matter for the House. The House's Leader, Gorbals Mick, says it's a matter for Government.
Can Labour do anything other than constantly pass the buck?
MPs' expenses are a mater for the independent review ... etc. It's getting incredibly tedious. Nothing is ever their fault, their responsibility or their role. What on earth are we paying them so much to do? We could pass the buck straight to independent reviews and save a heck of a lot of money.
A copy of an email I sent to Ed Miliband my MP. The first time I have ever emailed an MP!
Sir,
Having moved back into Adwick-le-Street recently I understand you are the MP for the area.
As a previously non-political, pretty much middle of the road floating voter this is the first time I have felt compelled to contact a member of Parliament.
I have just listened to the the debate(?) in the House of Commons regarding the Speaker and have to say that I feel that the Speaker is doing all he can to avoid a debate on himself by any means possible. He sounds like a man trying to keep his job by any technicality that he can find, any loophole, in fact anything he or his advisors can think of. Does he not realise the feeling of anger in the many ordinary people?
To an average man I feel this is further dragging down the Houses of Parliament and effecting it's prestige more than I ever thought possible. I do not think despair is too strong a word to describe my feelings at the moment.
I have looked up your expenses on the Telegraph website and applauded your frugality and hope it is a sign of 'honourablity' and that you will do the 'right thing'. To myself a small but significant indicator of the House of Commons commitment and realisation that many people are appalled by the current circumstances would be the removal of a man seen as a protector of the current expenses system. He should not be seen as a scapegoat. However I note his expenses claims and all his alleged attitudes to anyone who has challenged him in the past. I do not feel he upholds the honour or integrity of his position.
Yours more in hope than anticipation.
R.I.P.
18th May, 2009
The day that parliamentary democracy died. The Mother of Parliaments passed away after 800 years at 15.30 this afternoon.
God rest her soul
The Norway debate is full of appropriate quotes. Given Speaker Martin's reliance on his old friends like "Sir" Stuart Bell, this one comes to mind:
"It is not a question of who are the Prime Minister's friends. It is a far bigger issue. He has appealed for sacrifice. The nation is prepared for every sacrifice as long as it has leadership, so long as the government show clearly what they are aiming at, and so long as the nation is confident that those who are leading it are doing their best. I say solemnly that the Prime Minister should give an example of sacrifice, because there is nothing which can contribute more to victory than that he should sacrifice the seals of office."
David Lloyd George
Mr Speaker Martin is a part-timer, and will presumably jet off to Glasgow tomorrow morning ahead of the Recess.
Can't the House simply debate his fate tomorrow afternoon, behind his back, and send his personal effects to Dunspeakin House in black binbags?
One can tell you are enraged by the sheer number of typos...
I felt sadder and sadder as I watched that. I could not believe after all the talk there has been about Michael Martin's future that he seems to be completely oblivious to it. Not only did he not talk about his future, but he refused to let it be debated. I could not believe that after nearly nine years in the chair he does not know key rules on motions, debates and votes in the House of Commons. To see MPs having to battle with the Speaker of the House of Commons on the floor of the House of Commons was completely unedifying, shocking, and deeply upsetting. He has no authority left over the House, and it has deeply damaged the authority of the Office of the Speaker of the House of Commons. From Gordon Prentice to David Davis and from Sir Patrick McCormack to David Heath, MP after MP called on him to go. MPs of such stature and experience would not do that lightly. Still he does not get it. It should not have had to come to this. When Stuart Bell praised him, nobody shouted "hear hear" or supported him. There was just silence. It made me feel sick to see it, and so so sad.
Yes it was sad to see the Office of Speaker reduced in that way. I think this will be terribly damaging to GB unless he allows the debate tomorrow. Even his own MPs are furious.
Unbelievable performance by the Speaker; no grip on basic Commons procedure and struggled through his prepared speech, seemingly oblivious to the damage this is doing. Truly a lowpoint for Parliament and today will only increase the levels of anger of the public with the political classes with all the damage that will cause.
Listening to them all whinging and moaning about something which is completely their own fault is nauseating.
No mention of a general election, just the side issue of Martin. All this so called "honour" we hear about does not exist. The lot of them could resign if they wanted to and cause an election by default. They'd rather have another year on the take.
"I wouldn't be surprised to see marches on Parliament soon if we are not careful."
There's one on Facebook being planned for the 23rd:
http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=80639781877
This is beyond absurd.
The House of Commons has no right to describe itself as an independent legislature if it can only remove the Speaker with the permission of the government.
This goes well beyond the right and wrongs of the current Speaker's position. Indeed, he is in many respect irrelevant now.
Marches on Parliament is just what Brown (Labour, Balls, Harman, Smith, Straw) wants. Enact the Civil Contingencies Act and rule supreme. Frightening but all too possible.
Sorry, but this has nothing to do with the people. We did not vote him into the position and we can not get rid of him (except at an election). Nor will his staying or going make the slightest difference to how we, the people, are governed. I'm quite sure that Mr Martin has several issues to address and some of them quite serious, but it seems to me that the general complaint of MPs against the speaker is along the lines of "why didn't he do more to stop us behaving like pigs at a trough?".
MPs are not children - even if their behaviour in Parliament is not dissimilar - they are supposed to be responsible adults. It's about time they started behaving like it.
"I've arranged a meeting" is not what people need to hear.
Altough I think the present Speaker remaining in office is an obstacle to cleaning up the mess, and he should go and go quickly I do think some Labour MPs have a point.
The running of the Fees Office seems to have been central to what has transpired, yet the person in direct control (who earns more than an MP's basic sallary) has escaped with virtually no criticism. There should be some fault attached to MPs who were happy to take the money and not see the immorality r even illegaility in what they were colluding in.
Martin should depart, but not held solely responsible for the mess Parliament finds itself in.
I am much less hostile to the Speaker than most people commenting, and while he's not exactly a "scapegoat", I do think a lot of individual MPs, including party leaders, are all to happy to see the focus here shifted on to the Speaker.
Still, the Speaker's performance in the House of Commons was dire. On the one hand he acknowledged
that he was making a public statement on TV to the country at large.
And then, amazingly, he started using parliamentary procedure to deny the two things most needed - a statement about his own future, and to debate the motion on confidence in him.
This must have looked awful to any viewer, and will play badly on the news all day.
http://englisheclectic.blogspot.com/2009/05/amazing-day-in-british-constitutional.html
Martin and Gordon are joined at the hip in their fear of expressions of democratic will.
Can HM the Queen please intervene and call an election? It would the crowning achievement of her reign.
Abject,truly abject,makes you feel quite ashamed to have a Parliament controlled by this imbecile.
One point I'm disappointed in is when one or two MPs said that it is nothing to do with them. It is everything to do with them. They are all part of a system that is crumbling at the seams. It is no good papering cracks or tinkering with the paintwork. There needs a full strip of the wallpaper and House clean. One other thing I will say is Martin has made Gordon's task one hell of a lot harder now as he is going to have to defend the indefensable...
It'll take a Pinochet to clean up the system at this rate. The establishment is completely unserious about dealing with this.
I'm angry but after eleven years of Labour I've just about learnt to contain it!
The speaker, just like Labour, is running scared when it comes to letting anyone cast a vote on how incompotent they are & would rarther believe the fairy story that it's horrible people against the Scotts & Labour who would want him gone LOL!
The speaker is a great example of Labours ignorance & attitude towards public feelings!
Election NOW, before I burst!
This guy just has to go. Preferably tomorrow. We could even have a whip round to pay for the taxi. I'd love for the Telegraph to print his expenses. He's had his nose in the trough as much as the rest which is despicable considering his office. He's like the extractor over my cooker. Damaged goods and out of warranty.
True Martin should go but its a bit rich of David Davis to be leading the calls when he has been helping himself to plenty of tax payers money!
Labour are desperate to cling to power. At any cost.
Michael Martin has today shown the same disconnect with reality as Gordon "I never said I would end boom and bust" Brown.
The man is a disgrace, below contempt, i am so angry words fail me. Just go you awful awful man, just go
There was some ridiculous "class warrior" on Daily Politics today. A joke, that man.
That was simply shameless.
I'm very saddened too. It is no longer funny or appalling - Martin has no idea what he has just done to Parliament.
The Speaker doesn't know procedure after 9 yrs in the job [and the question wasn't actually a surprise], it's not his job to decide what is debated - it's HMG.
But HMG say it's his decision.
Oh - let's just have lots of meetings and wait 5 months instead.
I despair.
Parliament needs a scapegoat to (begin to) clear the air. Surely the Speaker, and Speaker, is the ideal candidate for that? And in this case, that is compounded by his bone-headed stubborness and clear incompetence for the job.
I can understand full well why you are upset and angry Mr. Dale. So am I. I have just seen the PM on my television grinning away while 'promoting' the World Cup bid. I am ashamed to say that I found myself yelling at the telly at top volume.
Seriously though, have these people really got no idea how angry the public are? Is the Westminster bubble really so impregnable to the views of the outside world?
Can somebody who knows about these things tell us just how much the Queen can actually do? Things cannot go on this way, how long can it be before the populace (quite rightly) marches on Parliament? And if they do, how many will be injured.
I am also deeply saddened by the anti-Scottish feeling that this dreadful situation is engendering. As far as I can tell most of us up here loathe and despise the sort of Central belt student union style 'politics' of this bunch of complete losers and criminals. We don't identify with them, we don't support them and most of all we don't want them back thank you very much.
I too am furious and have spent many minutes verbally abusing my TV while that moron Brennan attempted to defend the disgraceful Martin.
It was a disgusting debacle. Martin should be sacked. Any MP who supports him should be deselected and it should all happen now.
Labour facilitated by Martin are the scum who have dragged this country into the gutter and are now dragging us and our Parliament into the sewers below!
We should rid the country of them for being the vile vermin they are!
Again! Criticism of other people for their grasp of Parliamentary procedure by Dale. Extraordinary.
If you took advice from someone knowledgeable every once in a while (such as the Clerks who are there to do exactly that job) you might not make such a tit of yourself every time you speculate based on your piss poor 'sources'.
From your earlier blog about the Labour chief whip then the later statement from Brown that he would abide by the decision of the House, and then this statement.
This is yet another example of Brown's Labour Party playing politics with the position of Speaker of the House of Commons.
Martin would not have thought this out for himself. It was put together and, frankly, as a political move it is quite sharp. BUT as a move to placate the country and dampen the anger Brown and co have got it 100% wrong yet again!
They will whip the labour benches when it is debated-as it will-and Martin will stay until the General Election.
Brown just loves playing politics and could not care less what the people say and think- He doesn't meet ordinary people anymore! Only those that suck up to him.
By the way, Iain, our world cup chances are blown -he was at Wembley for the launch of the campaign. We have no hope now!
Odd I thought scape-goats should be without blemish.
The Fees office is his responsiblity.
They failed.
then he failed
now he has failed again.
So go!
How did this man ever get to be in politics, and get people to vote for him even in the safest of safe Labour seats?
He has just shown a complete lack of political understanding, media relations and foresight. Instead we've seen vanity, stubborness and just sheer incompetence. It really does threaten to destory what little faith there is left in the political process.
Every day now something seems to happen or to become public that outrages opinion.In short we are heading towards a Constitutional crisis and the attitude of Martin and his Labour backers,today , have surely helped that crisis to develop.
The problem is that NONE of the political leaders knows what to do. I have no doubt that HM is worried, its one of the worst crises that she has seen so we must look for signs of unrest from the Palace such as soundings from the Lord Lieutenants (last done during the miners strike of 84/85)
We are a long way from The Queen dissolving Parliament but closer than we were this time last week.
I heard it on the radio and it appeared to sounded like his answers were being whispered to him by someone else. It appeared on the audio that he hadn't a clue how this parliament thingy works.
Mave said:
>>Can somebody who knows about these things tell us just how much the Queen can actually do?<<
The Queen exercises the royal prerogative on only on the advice of ministers. Beyond this she has the right to be consulted, the right to encourage and the right to warn. So, apart from the staggering impropriety of the Queen becoming embroiled in a contentious political issue, she can’t do anything.
>>Things cannot go on this way,<<
What – parliamentary democracy can’t go on? What is your proposal?
>>how long can it be before the populace (quite rightly) marches on Parliament?<<
Ah, revolution! How about: ‘never you right-wing loon.’
>>And if they do, how many will be injured.
None. See above (loon etc.)
The Speaker should stay on as long as the current Parliament sits - he perfectly emobodies the rest of its members: venal, introspective and unable to admit he's been wrong. Seems to me he is the very model of an ideal speaker - with "neither eyes to see nor tongue to speak in this place but as the House is pleased to direct me, whose servant I am here."
Terminal!
I have listened with astonishment to all this claptrap from Labour MPs about this being driven by snobbery. Nobody ever criticized George Thomas for his background when the class war was still alive. The class war is OVER!
What have we got in Parliament - a battalion of Don Quixotes?
It must be terminal for the Labour Party if they are all like this.
What's more, there's something very ironic about the fact that that someone with the title 'Speaker' is so hopeless at public speaking.
The Speaker reminds of the (Scottish) engineer Mr.Queeg in the ancient radio show "The Navy Lark". Whenever the bridge whistled down for something (like more speed) he invariably replied that he would *have to ask the lad".
The man has no dignity, no self respect, only a sense of entitlement.
This must be one of Parliament's worst days ever.
If Brown or Harman, as leader of the House does not grant this debate, they will simply guarantee their annihilation at the ballot box - or outside the Palace of Minister if any protester with a rope can catch them.
Shameful.
It's often been said that Brown's autistic, but Michael Martin beats even the thundering big fist in his complete failure of emotional - and intellectual - intelligence.
This is a man who not only had his own snout in the trough up to his eyeballs, but has acted continuously to maintain the status quo. He's a disgrace to his position.
I am trying to imagine Betty Boothroyd making a speech like this and failing entirely.
He has to go. He has to be made to go by we, the public, if the MPs won't do it.
The line has to be drawn somewhere. This isn't all of it, but it's a start.
I can hardly wait to read Quentin Letts commons sketch tomorrow.
Dick Puddlecote said...
"I heard it on the radio and it appeared to sounded like his answers were being whispered to him by someone else. It appeared on the audio that he hadn't a clue how this parliament thingy works."
Dick, he wasn't elected for his intellectual ability nor his fine upstanding character. He was elected because Labour MPs had a lot of money riding on him.
His election was tainted, and his performance since has done nothing to redeem him. He was elected to a position that he not suited for, either by dint of personal probity nor ability. He his an obstacle to change, having supped deeply from the trough himself. He is an over-weening oaf. If he had any sense of dignity he would depart immediately.
Aye, ye dinnae get rid o' me that easily, ye bunch o' middens! Ah'm gaein' naewhere! Ye'll see Raith Rovers win the cup before ye see the back ae me (sorry Gordon, jist mah wee joke!)
Quite obvious he was reading someone else's words. Got the first sentence wrong ("I would like you to make a statement on members' allowances")and it went downhill from there.
I think in a way, Martin is being made into a scapegoat. He deserves to go, but how many others deserve to go with him, those who are very VERY silent.
and I wouldn't be surprised to see marches on Parliament soon if we are not careful..... SACK PARLIAMENT Saturday 23rd May, 12 Noon
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